Should the US commit forces to directly combat Russia in Ukraine?

[HomerJS]

To me it's a distinction without much of a difference, me firing a drone on the convoy vs me giving you a stinger and you fire it.

 

[Pens1566]

Ehm… No dead serious? Defensive alliance… So… If I go to another country and wage war there… what business is that of NATO? Yes I know of the article, but its not 5 is it? Surely the rest can be bent

I'll play along ...

Say that said peacekeeping force includes French and Germans. They go into Ukraine and somehow get engaged with a Russian unit while defending a ... school or hospital. French/German soldiers are captured. Hitl ... er, I mean Putin sees that as involvement of a NATO country (which it technically is) and retaliates against the NATO base in Poland where the peacekeepers came from. Now it is an article 5 issue. Congratulations, you just "peacekeeper'd" your way into a full scale shooting war (at least).

There, easy enough.

 

[cytg111]

I'll play along ...

Say that said peacekeeping force includes French and Germans. They go into Ukraine and somehow get engaged with a Russian unit while defending a ... school or hospital. French/German soldiers are captured. Hitl ... er, I mean Putin sees that as involvement of a NATO country (which it technically is) and retaliates against the NATO base in Poland where the peacekeepers came from. Now it is an article 5 issue. Congratulations, you just "peacekeeper'd" your way into a full scale shooting war (at least).

There, easy enough.

You can think up just about anything of you try hard enough… You are reaching.. Ok, Putin may cry so, then the US says no its not. Done?

 

[cytg111]

To me it's a distinction without much of a difference, me firing a drone on the convoy vs me giving you a stinger and you fire it.

Oh its a huge distinction.

 

[cytg111]

So Iraq was Article 5?

 

[Pens1566]

You can think up just about anything of you try hard enough… You are reaching.. Ok, Putin may cry so, then the US says no its not. Done?

Eh, it's not that much of a stretch scenario. They're already referring to words (French minister), and actions of non state actors (anonymous) as acts of war. They're a cornered animal.

 

[Pens1566]

So Iraq was Article 5?

No. Only invocation of Article 5 was from 9-11.

First gulf war was UN sanctioned. Second, not so much. But also, no threat of retaliation on a global scale from ... checks notes ... a country that couldn't even fly over their own airspace (Iraq) at the time. Nowhere near comparable situations.

Just stop. You don't really have a grasp on this at all.

 

[cytg111]

Eh, it's not that much of a stretch scenario. They're already referring to words (French minister), and actions of non state actors (anonymous) as acts of war. They're a cornered animal.

I am not debating the common sense of it, I am debating the legaleese, you and me have different thresholds, values, of when to take Putins threats seriously.

 

[cytg111]

No. Only invocation of Article 5 was from 9-11.

First gulf war was UN sanctioned. Second, not so much. But also, no threat of retaliation on a global scale from ... checks notes ... a country that couldn't even fly over their own airspace (Iraq) at the time. Nowhere near comparable situations.

Just stop. You don't really have a grasp on this at all.

All I see is you digging your hole deeper.
Was Iraq article 5 - was fucking rhetorical question dumbass.

 

[Pens1566]

All I see is you digging your hole deeper.
Was Iraq article 5 - was fucking rhetorical question dumbass.

Yeah, I'm the dumbass here. You got me.

 

[cytg111]

I thought it was primarily conservatives that climbed those sky high trees… But here you are. What the fuck ever..

 

[cytg111]

Yeah, I'm the dumbass here. You got me.

You’re right, your world will collapse if you ever would have to admit anything. Human nature, there you go. So very ordinary. Not super smart. But ordinary non the less.

edit and now ill go shoot some guns, forget you’re here

 

[Pens1566]

You’re right, your world will collapse if you ever would have to admit anything. Human nature, there you go. So very ordinary. Not super smart. But ordinary non the less.

Uh, ok. Whatever helps you sleep at night.

 

[nOOky]

Don't kid yourselves if you think Ukraine will win. Russia is going to encircle their cities and not quit until they are smoking husks. They have the time, the men, the equipment, and the leadership that will push them too it one way or the other.

The question is what level of atrocities does the world decide is acceptable? Because there will be mass civilian deaths, there will be atrocities, convention violations, and some of them you'll be able to see videos of. We get sickened by the video of a man and a dog being shot trying to flee, but it's soon out of our minds because Putin has nukes.

This is where we are at. The U.S. has citizens and soldiers that would help in a heartbeat. We have the strongest military the world has ever seen, but we feel impotent because we can't use it. It's frustrating to know that we could do something about it, but we won't. So perhaps go easy on the war hawks that want to help, it's a natural human condition for some of us to want to help. I can't imagine our military leadership feels really good about the situation, but many of our citizens are tired of war.

 

[Meghan54]

cytg111, you do understand that currently, with Americans, Brits, French, etc. fighting in Ukraine and not being citizens of said country, and no declaration of war by any of those nationalities mentioned above vs. Russia....that if said nationals get captured fighting for Ukraine, they could be held as spies, potentially be executed for such.

 

[cytg111]

cytg111, you do understand that currently, with Americans, Brits, French, etc. fighting in Ukraine and not being citizens of said country, and no declaration of war by any of those nationalities mentioned above vs. Russia....that if said nationals get captured fighting for Ukraine, they could be held as spies, potentially be executed for such.

Yes. Said countries has already instructed their citizens, all of them, that if you wanna go kill Russians in Ukraine then that is your personal provocative.

 

[dank69]

Don't kid yourselves if you think Ukraine will win. Russia is going to encircle their cities and not quit until they are smoking husks. They have the time, the men, the equipment, and the leadership that will push them too it one way or the other.

The question is what level of atrocities does the world decide is acceptable? Because there will be mass civilian deaths, there will be atrocities, convention violations, and some of them you'll be able to see videos of. We get sickened by the video of a man and a dog being shot trying to flee, but it's soon out of our minds because Putin has nukes.

This is where we are at. The U.S. has citizens and soldiers that would help in a heartbeat. We have the strongest military the world has ever seen, but we feel impotent because we can't use it. It's frustrating to know that we could do something about it, but we won't. So perhaps go easy on the war hawks that want to help, it's a natural human condition for some of us to want to help. I can't imagine our military leadership feels really good about the situation, but many of our citizens are tired of war.

Can't help it if war hawks refuse to learn from history again and again and again.

 

[skyking]

Right now the Russians are fighting the Battle of balsack mountain. The sanctions are cutting the ball sacks off of them.
The so-called troops are conscripts. They don't want to be there. They're not invested in the least.
While they fiddle fuck around, The international community is gutting Russia's economy like a fish

 

[BurnItDwn]

Everybody who has studied any WW2 History knows the story of Stalingrad.

Russia should be fully aware of how an encircled, entrenched, and determined defense can hold off against far superior numbers of better armed, supplied, and fed troops.

I hope Putin is assassinated before millions die, otherwise, the bloodbath will fill an ocean.

 

[uclaLabrat]

Everybody who has studied any WW2 History knows the story of Stalingrad.

Russia should be fully aware of how an encircled, entrenched, and determined defense can hold off against far superior numbers of better armed, supplied, and fed troops.

I hope Putin is assassinated before millions die, otherwise, the bloodbath will fill an ocean.

A populace can withstand a siege but not indefinitely; if the red army hadn't closed pincers from both the north and south to cut off Paulus and his supply lines, the wehrmacht would've won stalingrad.

Whom in the Ukraine will circle back and cut off the Russian supplies? Not saying it can't happen as logistics seem particularly vulnerable, but it has to happen to relieve the siege.

 

[mect]

I'm in favor of supplying the level of assistance desired by Ukraine. Unfortunately, few news outlets seem to think to focus on that.

 

[rommelrommel]

If we gave the Ukrainians some drones they could wipe out that convoy. I guess to complicated a weapons system.

Are stingers programmable with coordinates?

No, they’re a short range surface to air missile.

We’d be talking cruise missiles to allow Ukraine to hit convoys in the manner you’re suggesting.

 

[rommelrommel]

A populace can withstand a siege but not indefinitely; if the red army hadn't closed pincers from both the north and south to cut off Paulus and his supply lines, the wehrmacht would've won stalingrad.

Whom in the Ukraine will circle back and cut off the Russian supplies? Not saying it can't happen as logistics seem particularly vulnerable, but it has to happen to relieve the siege.

Also, Stalingrad was never encircled.

 

[uclaLabrat]

Also, Stalingrad was never encircled.

Uh what? The only reason field marshal paulus surrendered was he was encircled and cut off from resupply:

Operation Uranus - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[rommelrommel]

Uh what? The only reason field marshal paulus surrendered was he was encircled and cut off from resupply:

Operation Uranus - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Sorry if I was unclear, the Soviets were never encircled at Stalingrad.