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Should the Government increase minimum wage?

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<< Is it still the industrial revolution? Nope.

And taking an upper class person, and telling them to live on low wages is a joke. They have no idea what they're doing, or how to live frugally.


no, but the same rules apply.

the woman from what i've read figured it out rather quickly. don't dismiss her as an upper class woman, u don't know that. >>



But the same rules do not apply. Do you think it was government intervention that gave autoworkers and othre assembly line employees a middle class living???

As I said in another thread, Unions and the right to organize started off with good intentions, and did far more than any government regulations have done to better working conditions.

As for this "author" I'll place money on the fact that she'd never lived lower than upper middle class before trying her stunt.
 

god. are you saying the rich are stupid or something? after a year you start to figure things out, and as a woman she made friends and learned from them.


and don't tell me there isn't enough money to go around, the top 1% now has 50% of the pie. its been steadily increasing since the 50's i think, when it was at a more reasonable ~30% or so.
 


<< god. are you saying the rich are stupid or something? after a year you start to figure things out, and as a woman she made friends and learned from them.


and don't tell me there isn't enough money to go around, the top 1% now has 50% of the pie. its been steadily increasing since the 50's i think, when it was at a more reasonable ~30% or so. >>



Wealthy people have as little idea of how to suddenly live poor as poor people have any idea how to deal with sudden wealth.

I've been poor. Dirt poor and on the streets kicking a cocaine habit. And if you asked me today to go back and do that again, I would have a VERY hard time doing it.

And yes, there is plenty to go around. BUT, you have to WORK for it. And not just work, but work with an acquired skill that has enough worth to make you money, not just earn a living. You'll never gain any wealth by working a nine to five job for someone else. The only way to do it is take the massive risks required to start your own business. And THEN, you can't stop taking risks. You have to keep expanding and growing. Simply opening a mom and pop store, then working in it will not make you wealthy.
 


<< as for unions, where's the union of mcdonalds workers eh? 🙂 >>



Any McDonalds worker union would quickly fail for one reason: McDonalds has a very narrow profit margin. There is no room in individual stores to add dramatically to the labor costs without raising prices, and killing any and all competitiveness.

McDonalds is an entry level job. It's not meant to be a carreer.
 
the point of unions is to keep people who are not in the union from working in the unionized industry. its controlling the labor supply just like employers control the labor demand. they are only out for their members, not for everyone else, which is why union bosses want the minimum wage up to $15/hr.
 


<< the point of unions is to keep people who are not in the union from working in the unionized industry. its controlling the labor supply just like employers control the labor demand. they are only out for their members, not for everyone else, which is why union bosses want the minimum wage up to $15/hr. >>



I agree. However, unions did not start out like this. Their original intent was honorable, and they did do a lot to help pull hourly workers out of poverty, create safe work environments, and reasonable working conditions. After they achieved that, they began to feed upon themselves.
 


<< the point of unions is to keep people who are not in the union from working in the unionized industry. its controlling the labor supply just like employers control the labor demand. they are only out for their members, not for everyone else, which is why union bosses want the minimum wage up to $15/hr. >>



Exactly. The other reason so many Unions want increase in minimum wage is then they can raise union fees.
 
Nope.

I fail to see how raising it will help anything. I mean, why do you think that a lot of companies set up factories in other countries? Because they can pay foreign workers less than what they could pay Americans to do the same job. The government raises the rate... companies seek cheaper alternatives... jobs are exported... American economy suffers... in the end taxpayers pay the bill... in welfare and other crackpot ideas.

 
"Workers in general have seen their pay go up 28 percent in the 1990's,..., but pay for cheif executive officers has risn 481 percent. If paychecks on factory floors had gone up as fast as teh pay of bosses, the average worker today would earn $110,399 a year not the $29,216 he or she actually earns."
 


<< I agree. However, unions did not start out like this. Their original intent was honorable, and they did do a lot to help pull hourly workers out of poverty, create safe work environments, and reasonable working conditions. After they achieved that, they began to feed upon themselves. >>

ummm... no... they've always been that way. better working conditions is something else that they extracted from companies by controlling labor supply. instead of a large pay increase they took a smaller pay increase and better working conditions.




<< Exactly. The other reason so many Unions want increase in minimum wage is then they can raise union fees. >>

that assumes union workers are minimum wage workers, and pretty much none of them are. union workers have more skills than the unskilled minimum wage worker, and thus are paid more. if the minimum wage went up there would be substitution from minimum skilled minimum wage workers to higher skilled higher waged union workers in many cases. you can dig a trench two ways: hand some recent immigrats and shovel and pay minimum wage, or hire a union guy with a backhoe. if suddenly the price of the immigrants goes up, the union guy looks more attractive.
 
The federal minimum wage has to be low so each state can set its own minimum wage. So, even if I think a decent minimum wage is good, the federal should keep it at the current level.
 


<< No. >>



Min. wage shouldn't be for the teenager that whats college is for to get more money down the road.
As far as the people who are older, then probably so pending the area you live in. NY is pretty expensive so yes, but some small town where things are cheaper than what is in NY, or SF, no.
 


<< "Workers in general have seen their pay go up 28 percent in the 1990's,..., but pay for cheif executive officers has risn 481 percent. If paychecks on factory floors had gone up as fast as teh pay of bosses, the average worker today would earn $110,399 a year not the $29,216 he or she actually earns." >>



Um, the first part is just class envy. The second part is a silly example of simplistic thinking. If they took CEO salaries and spread them equally among all the workers, they'd see maybe a few cents increase in their hourly wages.

CEOs are paid what they are because share holders believe effective CEOs are worth it.

The problem with this kind of class envy BS is that people are too worried about what other people are making, and not busy actually doing something to better themselves.
 


<<

<< I agree. However, unions did not start out like this. Their original intent was honorable, and they did do a lot to help pull hourly workers out of poverty, create safe work environments, and reasonable working conditions. After they achieved that, they began to feed upon themselves. >>

ummm... no... they've always been that way. better working conditions is something else that they extracted from companies by controlling labor supply. instead of a large pay increase they took a smaller pay increase and better working conditions.




<< Exactly. The other reason so many Unions want increase in minimum wage is then they can raise union fees. >>

that assumes union workers are minimum wage workers, and pretty much none of them are. union workers have more skills than the unskilled minimum wage worker, and thus are paid more. if the minimum wage went up there would be substitution from minimum skilled minimum wage workers to higher skilled higher waged union workers in many cases. you can dig a trench two ways: hand some recent immigrats and shovel and pay minimum wage, or hire a union guy with a backhoe. if suddenly the price of the immigrants goes up, the union guy looks more attractive. >>



How about a non-union guy with a backhoe?

Not all union workers have such grand skills. You can't tell me the assembly line worker slapping nut A on bolt B all day is any more skilled than the kid slinging burgers all day at McDonalds. Unions have hijacked some industries, and demanded outrageous pay for what is basically unskilled labor.
 
its not so much class warfare as it is facts. All those facts say is that the 80's redistributed the wealth greatly. The managers always made more than the floor workers, always will, thats not wrong. But the relationship has changed, economic growth is treated differently now. Namely products are made as effeciently as possible, but the rewards from that, the profits are not trickling down.
 


<< its not so much class warfare as it is facts. All those facts say is that the 80's redistributed the wealth greatly. The managers always made more than the floor workers, always will, thats not wrong. But the relationship has changed, economic growth is treated differently now. Namely products are made as effeciently as possible, but the rewards from that, the profits are not trickling down. >>



A 28% pay increase with an inflation rate around 1% is "not trickling down?"

Also, trickle down is not all about hourly workers. It's also about the NUMBER of new jobs. Trickle down helps smaller businesses as well, because more employed people means more money to spend.

Like I said, when people are too worried about what others make, and do nothing to better their lives, they have no one but themselves to blame. I cannot understand, WHY people will do the same freakin job, day in and day out, and expect their lives to get better. You're NOT going to get ahead doing this. All you'll do is crab along sideways.

The fact that wages increased faster than the rate of inflation means that benefts ARE trickling down. It's simple class envy that denies this, and fixates on what other people are making.

If you're an assembly line worker, and you want a better life, you DO something about it. You don't sit and whine about how much your company's CEO makes, and expect your salary to match his. Go back to school, take night classes, open your own business, find a better job... Do SOMETHING other than NOTHING.

One thing I've noticed in life is that whining and class envy wont get you ahead. Too bad people can't understand this.
 
it makes no real difference if they increase it or not. They should never increase it. it causes inflation, and will just cause prices to rise, thus forcing them to continue to increase it indefinitely.

in the short run, it makes a few people feel good that they think they have helped lower income people when they really havent done anything. It also will make lower income people get fired, as companies will look at their short term balances, and be forced to consider if they really need that much labor.


Unions really only work on skilled labor. I dont even think the auto unions will last much longer, as eventually we can replace all that labor with robots, and if the assembly procedure were changed possibly be able to train unskilled workers easily to do it. Part of the auto industry also is that no one wnats to bite the bullet and go through the pains of this transition.

Mcdonalds among other things does not have a union because if they formed one, the workers for most mcdonald's franchises anyways are easily replaceable because it is unskilled labor that anyone can be trained to do. The strength of a union is the niche of the work that their union members do. If it is a valuable asset that work, then the union has more power.


Unions though cause things to cost more. They also cause large computer OEMs to consider things such as this.
Moving all repair depots across the border to mexico just across the border, so that incoming and outgoing repairs can be trucked across daily for shipment and reciept at warehouses on the other side. The increasing of the minimum wage , unions and other "socialistic" type ideas, have noble sounding goals but cause things such as this.
 
This thread still going?


ElFenix, thanks for the most accurate posts in the thread.


AmusedOne, who are you trying to bait , putting down the worth of hard labor. Whats your working background?Personally, I've always believed in hard work for the sake of hard work, IMO, menial labor is to be respected as is skilled labor, as is the CEO or the entertainer and the artist( I was apprenticed into my trade by a man named Schultz if you can understand the work ethic there). Yes, the Unions have a lock( but not as much as they used to) so does most all big business, special interest groups ect. IMO, the world could do without all of them, but its basic human nature to have collusion ( the basic theme behind the TV show Survivor?) Even the Deacon is networking.

Believe me, you want the guy putting bolt A and bolt B to be paid well. The job has to be done right, you don't want the motor vibrating out, or the brakes or steering to fail. When the worker installing bolt A see's a problem( that overseas part was not machined properly) he will stop and notify the foreman. This is because he cares about his job, his product and his livelyhood. He cares because he is compensated in a way that lets him enjoy the American Dream. Don't make this dream a reality, and see his work ethic go down the drain( when I say he, I also mean she, make no mistake about it!). Now you could beat this worker over the head with a 2 X 4( this method is still used today, belive it or not) to get what you want out of him. Not what I would call progress.

So as I've said earlier, I believe in a minimum wage(not really the topic here) because its human nature to take advantage of others based on the power of politics not the value of their labor( and I believe all labor is valuable). As far as the level goes(this is the main topic), I believe there should be conditions, and the level should be raised above what it is now, using the correct timing.




 


<< This thread still going?


ElFenix, thanks for the most accurate posts in the thread.


AmusedOne, who are you trying to bait , putting down the worth of hard labor. Whats your working background?Personally, I've always believed in hard work for the sake of hard work, IMO, menial labor is to be respected as is skilled labor, as is the CEO or the entertainer and the artist( I was apprenticed into my trade by a man named Schultz if you can understand the work ethic there). Yes, the Unions have a lock( but not as much as they used to) so does most all big business, special interest groups ect. IMO, the world could do without all of them, but its basic human nature to have collusion ( the basic theme behind the TV show Survivor?) Even the Deacon is networking.

Believe me, you want the guy putting bolt A and bolt B to be paid well. The job has to be done right, you don't want the motor vibrating out, or the brakes or steering to fail. When the worker installing bolt A see's a problem( that overseas part was not machined properly) he will stop and notify the foreman. This is because he cares about his job, his product and his livelyhood. He cares because he is compensated in a way that lets him enjoy the American Dream. Don't make this dream a reality, and see his work ethic go down the drain( when I say he, I also mean she, make no mistake about it!). Now you could beat this worker over the head with a 2 X 4( this method is still used today, belive it or not) to get what you want out of him. Not what I would call progress.

So as I've said earlier, I believe in a minimum wage(not really the topic here) because its human nature to take advantage of others based on the power of politics not the value of their labor( and I believe all labor is valuable). As far as the level goes(this is the main topic), I believe there should be conditions, and the level should be raised above what it is now, using the correct timing. >>



Good gawd, are you really this ignorant???

Labor is a commodity. The more rare or hard earned the SKILL, the more the labor is worth. ANYONE can put nut A on bolt B or dig a ditch, or serve BigMacs, and therefore his labor is cheap, and easily replaceable. But not everyone can do open-heart surgery, therefore the surgeon can charge more for his labor, and get it. In fact, better surgeons can charge more than mediocre ones, because his SKILL is more rare, and therefore worth more.

The level of labor is irrelevant. It's the level of SKILL required to perform the labor that is relevant.

Without treating labor as a commodity, there remains little to no incentive to gain skills, or exploit one's own talents.

As for my working history? I did odd jobs while on the street and kicking a teenage cocaine habit until I joined the Army. After getting out of the Army I held two and sometimes three low paying jobs while going to school in GA. After getting out of school I went to work for Kimberly Clark in SC while I formed a business plan and secured financing. Since then I've owned my own business.
 
Have any of you long-haired hippie type pinko fags actually been to Eastern Europe and seen the results of your best ideas?

 


<< As for my working history? I did odd jobs while on the street and kicking a teenage cocaine habit until I joined the Army. After getting out of the Army I held two and sometimes three low paying jobs while going to school in GA. After getting out of school I went to work for Kimberly Clark in SC while I formed a business plan and secured financing. Since then I've owned my own business. >>



Well done.


Similar here, odd jobs, played in rock bands for many years, got rid of the drug habits, joined LOCAL #3 I.B.E.W.,(starting wage was barely above minimum, it didn't pay the rent, so I kept playing in bands, working and going to college at night).I helped renovate the main power distribution in the Chrysler building, started the electrical construction of the IBM building when it was a hole in the ground, finished tenant electrical floors 99+ in WTC tower 2. Been Sub foreman, General foreman, business owner, put wife thru college ect.
 
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