Should the Government increase minimum wage?

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BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,562
9
81
There's nothing to discuss. You don't even seem to have an angle of attack, you're just throwing out arbitrary arguments. Those opposed to mw increases have shown through logical means how a mw hike does nothing at best, and at worst has a negative affect. People supporting mw increases just regurgitate the tired old leftist mantra "but think of the children" or some such BS.
 

Jerboy

Banned
Oct 27, 2001
5,190
0
0
Hellz no for people lacking education.

They should make the minimum wage $7.00 for people with diploma's and students currently enrolled and maintains good attendance.

$4.00 for the rest. What's the point of education if losers were to get same money as educated?

Alot of uneducated goons at McDonald's and such doesn't speak worth a crap of English and doesn't know how to handle many situations. Why should they be paid as much as those that knows how to handle it?
 

KBTibbs

Senior member
May 3, 2001
226
0
0


<< And, PLEASE, stop repeating that crap about how raising the minimum wage would cause massive unemployment problems and rapid inflation! It's not true, and has little or no historical basis >>



What a moron, have you actually looked at the numbers? I had an economic term paper about the effect of the minimum wage on the cost of American Living. I studied EVERY hike since 1938 (the start of the min wage) and inflation rose to meet the gap EACH TIME within a year. I believe from '38-'97 there were 27-28 hikes (cant remember for sure) and within a year inflation caught up.

Now, I didn't say this is "rapid inflation" but it is a fact that it does go up in proportion to the % of min wage hike...just look at the numbers. As to "massive unemployment" I don't know about that, however It does seem to me that some layoffs happened as a result. It certainly didn't CREATE jobs...
 

rahvin

Elite Member
Oct 10, 1999
8,475
1
0
AmusedOne is very right wing so flavor his view with a touch of salt (or a bag). My opinion is minimum wages are bad, supply/demand should set the prices. As was noted earlier any minimum wage increase is an immediate inflationary pressure.
 

ultimatebob

Lifer
Jul 1, 2001
25,134
2,446
126


<<

<< And, PLEASE, stop repeating that crap about how raising the minimum wage would cause massive unemployment problems and rapid inflation! It's not true, and has little or no historical basis >>



What a moron, have you actually looked at the numbers? I had an economic term paper about the effect of the minimum wage on the cost of American Living. I studied EVERY hike since 1938 (the start of the min wage) and inflation rose to meet the gap EACH TIME within a year. I believe from '38-'97 there were 27-28 hikes (cant remember for sure) and within a year inflation caught up.

Now, I didn't say this is "rapid inflation" but it is a fact that it does go up in proportion to the % of min wage hike...just look at the numbers. As to "massive unemployment" I don't know about that, however It does seem to me that some layoffs happened as a result. It certainly didn't CREATE jobs...
>>



There is some truth (not as much as you think, but SOME truth) to what you're saying, but don't forget that most salaried employees get an average raise of 3% a year. Don't you think that minimum wage workers deserve AT LEAST that much to keep up with the cost of living increases?!? Otherwise, the gap between tha the "haves" and the "have-nots" will continue to grow.
 

b0mbrman

Lifer
Jun 1, 2001
29,470
1
81


<< Socialism failed. Capitalism is what made the US the most powerful and most prosperious country on earth. We're the only nation with fat "poor" people who own cars. >>


This reminds me of a time when I used to do volunteer work alongside social workers at schools w/low income kids.

The kids would be on subsidized lunch and their schools had to hand out pencils and paper every morning because they couldn't afford it.

Meanwhile, these kids (4th and 5th graders) would be wearing big, expensive Polo jackets, the latest Jordans, etc. and their moms and dads would come get them at the end of the day with every brand name in the world across their chest, on their purse, and with a neck covered with jewelry...

No point to this story really except to say that there's some people who don't care about getting ahead
 

b0mbrman

Lifer
Jun 1, 2001
29,470
1
81


<<

<< I believe in supply and demand.
Market should set the rate.;)
>>



Yeah, right. This method has worked really well for those 13-year Malyasian kids who are sewing together underwear and sneakers 11 hours a day for $5, right?
rolleye.gif
>>


Those kids would make 30 cents an hour at any other job they could get...Those kids could probably support their whole damn family making $5 a day
 

ultimatebob

Lifer
Jul 1, 2001
25,134
2,446
126


<<

<<

Yeah, right. This method has worked really well for those 13-year Malyasian kids who are sewing together underwear and sneakers 11 hours a day for $5, right?
rolleye.gif
>>


Those kids would make 30 cents an hour at any other job they could get...Those kids could probably support their whole damn family making $5 a day
>>



Maybe they could afford to buy a few scraps of food at the end of the day, but they wouldn't be much better off than beggars in the street. Besides, would you ever want YOUR kid to have to support YOU in such a manner, if you ever became disabled and weren't able to work? Nope, I didn't think so.

THAT is why a pure capitalistic system doesn't work, and why government aids such as welfare and a minimum wage are necessary.
 

JellyBaby

Diamond Member
Apr 21, 2000
9,159
1
81


<< THAT is why a pure capitalistic system doesn't work, and why government aids such as welfare and a minimum wage are necessary. >>

Funny how the nation get along quite nicely for nearly 200 years without your so-called government aids.
 

b0mbrman

Lifer
Jun 1, 2001
29,470
1
81


<< Well, all I can say is, its a crime to work 40 hrs a week for a year and make $10,691.20 in America 2002.
Somebody please show me a working budget for one person to live on within the above figure. Try not to jest
rolleye.gif
>>


Easy.

I pay $375 a month for rent (including utilities), $250 on food, clothes, a movie or two, and that leaves enough for my in-state public college tuition too (UC Berkeley)...

Don't tell me it can't be done. It insults us who have to work so hard and live so simple to make sure it *does* get done...
 

RONType1

Golden Member
Feb 21, 2000
1,150
0
0
isn't it like 6.50 in california? or is it 6.75 already? in any event, the gov't shouldn't mess with minimum wage... let the law of supply and demand do its business...
 

PlatinumGold

Lifer
Aug 11, 2000
23,168
0
71
the irony is, the people that get hurt the most by an increase in minimum wage are the people that work for minimum wage. if minimum wage goes up, employment for low wage labor goes down. there is a DIRECT CORELATION.
 

b0mbrman

Lifer
Jun 1, 2001
29,470
1
81


<< O.K. then. To all you big business folks out there (hee hee, this is AT), when you go out to lunch, do you tip the waiter/waitress?

Of course you do. Does it cause you to spiral into the abyss of laying off workers and raising your prices to do this? Nope. You're O.K. with this.
>>


Jeez...When someone is applying to be a waitress/waiter, it's no secret that they're gonna get tips. Owners know it and they know it...

Owners reduce hourly wages accordingly and workers add it to the wage when comparing being a waitress with all their other options...
 

b0mbrman

Lifer
Jun 1, 2001
29,470
1
81


<< Flunky.Hmmm.

When my 10 year old daughter( straight "A", honors orchestra, soccer, dance, computers, ect) at 16, decides for herself she wants to go to work at a neighborhood store, she's a FLUNKY?. No, I can't imagine what you say is true. It's just not her, LOL, all of a sudden, to become something she's not.
rolleye.gif
>>


Facts
  • She won't be supporting herself, nor will she be supporting a family
  • She will not be forced to do the minimum wage job
    • She can choose to not look for a job or look for one
    • She can choose to accept the job offer or not accept it
    • She can choose to quit or not quit)
  • There will be a dozen other 16-year-olds who would gladly take the job she works
 

b0mbrman

Lifer
Jun 1, 2001
29,470
1
81


<<

<< Yeah, right. This method has worked really well for those 13-year Malyasian kids who are sewing together underwear and sneakers 11 hours a day for $5, right?
rolleye.gif
>>


Those kids would make 30 cents an hour at any other job they could get...Those kids could probably support their whole damn family making $5 a day
>>

Maybe they could afford to buy a few scraps of food at the end of the day, but they wouldn't be much better off than beggars in the street. Besides, would you ever want YOUR kid to have to support YOU in such a manner, if you ever became disabled and weren't able to work? Nope, I didn't think so.[/i] >>


What do you know about life in Malaysia? (Specifically cost of living and the exchange rate) My best friend's parents worked in a garment factory there in their teens so they could come to America...would you rather Nike shut that plant down so *everyone* is dirt poor in Malaysia?

In the farm village my own father grew up, you'd be damn near royalty if you pulled in 255.875 pesos a day. Don't think anyone in Malaysia or the Philippines is crying when a Nike plant moves into their town...


<< THAT is why a pure capitalistic system doesn't work, and why government aids such as welfare and a minimum wage are necessary. >>


Well...if by "doesn't work," you mean "works" then I guess you'd be right :)
 

b0mbrman

Lifer
Jun 1, 2001
29,470
1
81


<< the irony is, the people that get hurt the most by an increase in minimum wage are the people that work for minimum wage. if minimum wage goes up, employment for low wage labor goes down. there is a DIRECT CORELATION. >>


Errr...actually that's an indirect or negative correlation :) but that's true...
 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
102,358
8,447
126
theres a lot of uneducated drivel flying around on both sides of this debate.

one of the best quotes of the thread:

<< You don't lift a person up by artificially increasing the worth of his labor. You lift him up by teaching him a skill that makes his labor worth more. >>

this is important because it points something out: money is NOT worth ANYTHING. you can't it eat, you can't wear it, you can't hide under it during a rainstorm. it is simply a good that makes it so we don't have to barter. at best something unexpected could raise/lower the real value of money in the short term, but only innovation or education can raise the real value of labor or capital in the long term.

minimum wage is not innovation or education. it does nothing to increase the real value of a person's hourly output.

that said, there is a purpose for the minimum wage, and thats too control the supply of labor to minimum wage jobs. the minimum wage law says that minimum wage is to be set at the point where workers on it earn the most total money. that is, that if the minimum wage were lower, then it could be raised and not enough people would be fired to offset the gain in income by everyone who kept their job. eventually this aggregate earnings curve peaks, and then if the wage is raised firing offsets the increase in the wage of everyone that kept their job. that is a pretty reasonable place to keep the minimum wage at. problem is, its impossible to figure out where that point is, and its certainly not uniform for the whole country.

now there is the famous study done on aggregate employment numbers among people with minimal skills jobs in 1990-1991. this is one of the worst studies to use for anything. it is worthless. why? because it does not take into account the bush recession. of course the employment figures were down, we were in a recession!

in fact, the best anyone can make out raising the minimum wage has never had an immediate effect on the economy, and if you try to enlarge the time period you get far too many variables to deal with. there are a couple of reasons that minimum wage hikes don't have any noticeable effect. first is that everyone knows they are coming. it takes the law a while to pass through congress and the pres, and the law doesn't go into effect for a time period after that. so by the time the law actually goes into effect any adjustment has been made. most studies center on before and after the wage hike actually takes place, it would be better on before and after the bill is likely to pass. the second reason, and possibly a more convincing one, is that minimum wage hikes are not proposed during times when business is hurting. they are proposed when nice profits are being made, the labor market is becoming tighter, and wages are rising. the current round of raising the minimum to $6+ started while minimum-skills jobs were going for $8+. if you implement a floor at $6 when the market is clearing at $8 then you're not changing anything out in the real world.
 

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
56,536
16,306
146


<< AmusedOne is very right wing so flavor his view with a touch of salt (or a bag). My opinion is minimum wages are bad, supply/demand should set the prices. As was noted earlier any minimum wage increase is an immediate inflationary pressure. >>



:confused:

I'm about as far from "right wing" as one can get. Please explain, in detail, exactly what makes me "right wing."

Let's see...

*I oppose laws against abortion. Boy, that's right wing, huh?

*I oppose any attempt to inject religion into politics.

*I oppose the war on drugs.

*I oppose laws against prostitution.

*I oppose laws against gambling.

*I've opposed nearly all limits on free speech

*I oppose any infringement on privacy, no matter how much "safer" you think we'll be for it.

What is right wing about any of the above?

Please, if you're going to label people, at least get it right.
 

b0mbrman

Lifer
Jun 1, 2001
29,470
1
81


<< isn't it like 6.50 in california? or is it 6.75 already? in any event, the gov't shouldn't mess with minimum wage... let the law of supply and demand do its business... >>


$6.75
 

Nefrodite

Banned
Feb 15, 2001
7,931
0
0
No. The government should stay out of the business of determining what the prevailing wage should be. If a job is truly worth a certain amount, that is the amount that will be paid. Artificially inflating the value of any given commodity doesn't make it more valuable, and only serves to skew economic results.

someone doesn't remember the hellish industrial revolution i guess. pure capitalism fails just as pure communism.

i remember a woman author recently wrote a book about the minimum wage where she tested out trying to live on it for a year. horror show basically.
 

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
56,536
16,306
146


<< No. The government should stay out of the business of determining what the prevailing wage should be. If a job is truly worth a certain amount, that is the amount that will be paid. Artificially inflating the value of any given commodity doesn't make it more valuable, and only serves to skew economic results.

someone doesn't remember the hellish industrial revolution i guess. pure capitalism fails just as pure communism.

i remember a woman author recently wrote a book about the minimum wage where she tested out trying to live on it for a year. horror show basically.
>>



Is it still the industrial revolution? Nope.

And taking an upper class person, and telling them to live on low wages is a joke. They have no idea what they're doing, or how to live frugally.
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,562
9
81


<< And taking an upper class person, and telling them to live on low wages is a joke. They have no idea what they're doing, or how to live frugally. >>

Excuse me sir, can you tell me where to find the budget caviar?
 

Nefrodite

Banned
Feb 15, 2001
7,931
0
0
Is it still the industrial revolution? Nope.

And taking an upper class person, and telling them to live on low wages is a joke. They have no idea what they're doing, or how to live frugally.


no, but the same rules apply.

the woman from what i've read figured it out rather quickly. don't dismiss her as an upper class woman, u don't know that.