Should states ban trans athletes from competing?

[nakedfrog]

Trans men see y'all pretending they don't exist as always. It's always about keeping those icky trans women down.

 

[Captante]

Trans men see y'all pretending they don't exist as always. It's always about keeping those icky trans women down.

Incorrect.... for me it's not about trans-people at all. (or at most minimally)

Make a list of all the PHYSICAL sports where women can actually compete consistently on a level playing-field with men. (there are none)

 

[nakedfrog]

Incorrect.... for me it's not about trans-people at all.

You want to keep trans people competing in the sports division of their assigned sex at birth. That means trans men compete against cis women, they get the boost of testosterone and then do exactly what you're projecting trans women will do, take the amateur/pro spots from "biological" girls and women. If you only apply it to trans women... then how is it not about trans people?

 

[fskimospy]

Incorrect.... for me it's not about trans-people at all. (or at most minimally)

Make a list of all the PHYSICAL sports where women can actually compete consistently on a level playing-field with men. (there are none)

Why do you think it is an appropriate role of state government to create mandates for children's sports? Like, why don't you just leave them alone to figure it out for themselves?

 

[Captante]

You want to keep trans people competing in the sports division of their assigned sex at birth. That means trans men compete against cis women, they get the boost of testosterone and then do exactly what you're projecting trans women will do, take the amateur/pro spots from "biological" girls and women. If you only apply it to trans women... then how is it not about trans people?

Like it or not trans-women are at least partially still men and thus inherently stronger/faster (and often more agile) simply by virtue of starting out as men.

Are we debating this? If not how is it fair for them to play a strength-related sport against girls?

 

[nakedfrog]

Like it or not trans-men are still at least partially still men and thus inherently stronger/faster (and often more agile) simply by virtue of starting out as men.

Are we debating this? If not how is it fair for them to play a strength-related sport against girls?

Trans men are people who were assigned female at birth and transition to male, with the aid of testosterone.

 

[TheVrolok]

Gosh, it's weird how you're asking that question when it was literally in the text I quoted, and then you proceed to make up a lie about the actual examined data. Kinda makes one wonder.



I wouldn't bother asking me about fairness of sports, as I'm not a sports fan and of the mind that we culturally place an abhorrent amount of importance on them, and we're not culturally that concerned with "fairness" in many other aspects of life. Michael Phelps was born with "unfair" genetics that make him a beast at swimming, probably we ought to keep him out of the pool.
I don't have any issue with requiring HRT of 24+ months before switching adult divisions.
However, keeping trans kids out of sports in schools is just a fucked-up way to keep trans kids down and make them aware you think they're monsters. Give their times an * or something if they happen to win, whatever, just let the kids play.

Is an asterisks addended to their victory also not singling them out and/or diminishing them? Just a point of argument, I honestly don't know what the answers are here. As I said earlier, we're probably just too regressive/immature culturally and we need to move forward.

 

[Captante]

Why do you think it is an appropriate role of state government to create mandates for children's sports? Like, why don't you just leave them alone to figure it out for themselves?

It doesn't effect me directly in any way since I don't bet on sports or really follow women's sports now that my daughters are grown. I don't actually care all that much in any way.

 

[Captante]

Trans men are people who were assigned female at birth and transition to male, with the aid of testosterone.

Pardon me (seriously) .... but I'm pretty sure you know what I meant.

 

[Captante]

Is an asterisks ended to their victory also not singling them out and/or diminishing them? Just a point of argument, I honestly don't know what the answers are here. As I said earlier, we're probably just too regressive/immature culturally and we need to move forward.

No "*" on the "records" set in MLB by the steroid-users for example.

Glad I'm not the one that has to figure it out!

 

[fskimospy]

It doesn't effect me directly in any way since I don't bet on sports or really follow women's sports now that my daughters are grown. I don't actually care all that much in any way.

So if it doesn't affect you and you don't care much it seems like something the state shouldn't get involved with, at least to me.

 

[Captante]

So if it doesn't affect you and you don't care much it seems like something the state shouldn't get involved with, at least to me.

Have any daughters who are high-level athletes?

 

[fskimospy]

Have any daughters who are high-level athletes?

Nope! Have any trans kids?

 

[Captante]

Nope! Have any trans kids?

It's not some kind of a contest derp ... I did however raise two girls who were both athletes.

Point is that if you did have daughters who were athletes this WOULD very likely be a major issue for you.

 

[fskimospy]

It's not some kind of a contest derp ... I did however raise two girls who were both athletes.

Point is that if you did have daughters who were athletes this WOULD very likely be a major issue for you.

I agree it's not a contest, I was making the exact same point for you - if you had a trans daughter this would very likely be a major issue for you.

If I had daughters who were athletes I sincerely doubt I would give a shit then either for the simple reason that MTF trans athletes competing at a high level are so incredibly rare that the overwhelmingly likely outcome is my fictional daughters would never encounter one. For example here's a fun fact - Utah banned trans athletes in sports and then when they looked into it found it affected ONE PERSON. The state made a law to ban a single child from competing in sports. Totally bonkers, right? Now we have other states saying we need to hold genital inspections of people accused of being transgender. Genital inspections!

This is my larger point, these situations are so insanely rare that having statewide laws makes no sense and should all be repealed. Let the individuals sort it out themselves.

 

[Captante]

This is my larger point, these situations are so insanely rare that having statewide laws makes no sense and should all be repealed. Let the individuals sort it out themselves.

It does however come up from time to time and sadly people seem to have a lot of trouble "sorting it out" on their own without something having been mandated. (although it does seem like a waste of resources since we shouldn't have to do it at all!)

Just like they enforce age-range limits in boys little-league baseball for a reason (older boys get too big and strong to be fair) there's a dang good reason that men don't play physical sports seriously against women 99% of the time.

Unless you feel like the above is nonsense we do have an issue here, however less common it is.

 

[JD50]

Like Eskimo said the case of a high level MTF trans athlete wrecking a bunch of CIS female athletes is incredibly rare, which is probably why the anti-trans folks can only find one or two cases to point to. Meanwhile you'll stop a ton of trans kids from playing a sport they love recreationally, kids that are already having a hard enough time as it is.

These kids are just looking for a little joy in their life and a place where they can be accepted. This isn't just "high level athletes", so maybe have some compassion for these kids. And uh... why the hell is a "high level athlete" more important than all the other kids just playing sports?

 

[Zorba]

Trans men see y'all pretending they don't exist as always. It's always about keeping those icky trans women down.

I think all men's leagues should be open leagues as I've said many times on here. Assuming the transman's hormones are within acceptable levels.

But the fact is most transmen are going to have a very hard time competing with cis men. The fear at least is that trans women will have a massive advantage over cis women. If for some reason you think transmen will have an advantage in men's sports I'd like to hear it.

 

[Zorba]

You want to keep trans people competing in the sports division of their assigned sex at birth. That means trans men compete against cis women, they get the boost of testosterone and then do exactly what you're projecting trans women will do, take the amateur/pro spots from "biological" girls and women. If you only apply it to trans women... then how is it not about trans people?

That would be doping, and shouldn't be allowed.

 

[Captante]

Nobody here is in favor of trampling on trans-people's rights but women's rights matter too don't they? (oh wait this is America so dumb question!)

It really REALLY sucks that anyone's feelings get hurt and gender-identity shouldn't matter in any way in NON-physical sports or in ANYTHING else that doesn't directly involve physical strength.

 

[Zorba]

Like Eskimo said the case of a high level MTF trans athlete wrecking a bunch of CIS female athletes is incredibly rare, which is probably why the anti-trans folks can only find one or two cases to point to. Meanwhile you'll stop a ton of trans kids from playing a sport they love recreationally, kids that are already having a hard enough time as it is.

These kids are just looking for a little joy in their life and a place where they can be accepted. This isn't just "high level athletes", so maybe have some compassion for these kids. And uh... why the hell is a "high level athlete" more important than all the other kids just playing sports?

There was the wrestler in Texas too, which I think was a bigger deal than Lia Thomas. But I agree it's pretty rare.

High level matters because an average player isn't blocking out a biological woman from a scholarship or championship, etc. For an average player I think the only concern would be if they some how increased the risk of injury to other players. Assuming hormone therapy, of course.

 

[nakedfrog]

That would be doping, and shouldn't be allowed.

That's literally how trans men transition
So they can't participate in men's OR women's sports?

 

[Zorba]

That's literally how trans men transition
So they can't participate in men's OR women's sports?

I already said my opinion of that.

But yes, if states pass laws banning trans in either sport sex, transmen would be blocked out of sports. Which one reason I don't think states should be passing this zero logic bills and let the sports associations figure it out.

Transwomen would also effectively be blocked out, since they wouldn't be able to actually compete with men anymore.

 

[Captante]

That's literally how trans men transition
So they can't participate in men's OR women's sports?

Tough question .... in the literal sense most pro-sports leagues (men's or womens) do forbid and test for that stuff.

But in pro-sports $ talks so I could see exceptions being made.

 

[nakedfrog]

Trans men see y'all pretending they don't exist as always. It's always about keeping those icky trans women down.

So I hope you understand the point I was making here--y'all barely even know about trans men, and just assume I'm still talking about trans women when I say trans men. This is not an accident.