glenn1
Lifer
- Sep 6, 2000
- 25,383
- 1,013
- 126
There's some smart guy from a think tank somewhere (i forget where i read it, sorry) who believes that Powell being dispatched to talk to Arafat is simply to lay down the framework for a later two-pronged attack, a U.S. led one on Iraq, and Israel on the Palestine, Syrian, and Lebanese based terror groups by Israel. Essentially, President Bush is stalling for time until all our ducks can be put in order, then the ass kicking begins.
Essentially, what Powell is there for is two reasons.... as mentioned earlier, to stall for time. Secondly, to lay down the impossible conditions for Arafat to comply with, so that the subsequent attack can be justifiable in the eyes of the world community, similiar to how we gave the Taliban government in Afghanistan the ultimatum to turn over Osama, knowing full well they neither could nor would comply.
Essentially, what Powell is there for is two reasons.... as mentioned earlier, to stall for time. Secondly, to lay down the impossible conditions for Arafat to comply with, so that the subsequent attack can be justifiable in the eyes of the world community, similiar to how we gave the Taliban government in Afghanistan the ultimatum to turn over Osama, knowing full well they neither could nor would comply.
<< The the US should then lead an international peace keeping force to protect the borders for a while to prevent any terrorist activity. >>
Since you are so eager to do that when are you going to enlist?
If it is in any way impossible for Arafat to comply with our demands that he stop the attacks then he is simply irrelevent to the entire picture. He either has the power to stop them as we are demanding or he does not have the power to control his own peole in which case neither Powell nor Sharon nor anyone should be engaged in diplomatic relations with him.
BTW to The Presence with which division did you serve in Lebenon?
BTW to The Presence with which division did you serve in Lebenon?
ThePresence
Elite Member
- Nov 19, 2001
- 27,727
- 16
- 81
<< BTW to The Presence with which division did you serve in Lebenon? >>
All I am saying is that I was with the Mishmeret Hagivul. Obviously you know what that is or you wouldn't be asking. I was only in for a few months.
BTW welcome to the ATOT club.
<< No, It will do no good. terrorists rule the Palestinian people and Yasser is their leader. >>
yes
he needs to meet with him to give him a final ultimatum,
if he wants the U.S to put pressure on Isreal, he needs to put pressure on his people to stop the bombings
he needs to meet with him to give him a final ultimatum,
if he wants the U.S to put pressure on Isreal, he needs to put pressure on his people to stop the bombings
Hard nosed politics should never get in the way of saving lives.....be it Jew or Arab. He should talk and try to reason with the man. Of course there are limits to one's patience. If we get no cooperation at all from Arafat them we are proving the Israelies correct, he is not the leader he claims to be. If we get no cooperation from Israel on the otherhand then we need to make clear that future support is in question.
If Arafat has no control over his forces, being the duly elected leader of his people is a farce. Both sides have to compromise or the killing will contrinue.
What ticks me off more right now is in the Arab world WE (THE US) are the bad guys. There burning our flags, protesting our one sided support of Israel. NOT SO ! I don't see anybody else steping forward trying to help both sides as we do NOBODY ! Who else is gonna buy all there oil ? Who else is gonna give them the technology for a better living standard ?
This stris me up so much when I see this, I WANT to be pro Israel. If these people want to do this then I say grab all these Arab students enjoying our Universities and send them home !
If Arafat has no control over his forces, being the duly elected leader of his people is a farce. Both sides have to compromise or the killing will contrinue.
What ticks me off more right now is in the Arab world WE (THE US) are the bad guys. There burning our flags, protesting our one sided support of Israel. NOT SO ! I don't see anybody else steping forward trying to help both sides as we do NOBODY ! Who else is gonna buy all there oil ? Who else is gonna give them the technology for a better living standard ?
This stris me up so much when I see this, I WANT to be pro Israel. If these people want to do this then I say grab all these Arab students enjoying our Universities and send them home !
>>>If these people want to do this then I say grab all these Arab students enjoying our Universities and send them home <<<
That's probably coming. The INS and FBI are probably going over records of all student visas from the middle east right now, making a list and checking it twice.
That's probably coming. The INS and FBI are probably going over records of all student visas from the middle east right now, making a list and checking it twice.
Miramonti
Lifer
- Aug 26, 2000
- 28,653
- 100
- 106
It cracks me up how the US votes in the UN resolution calling for Israels withdrawal, and Bush demands Israels immediate withdrawal. Why? Because they (we) want to negotiate a truce and peace settlement, and Israels current occupation and military objectives might undermine those goals and lead to escalating violence on both sides, jeopardizing the goals for peace.
And then Israel doesn't withdraw and keeps going, and not surprisingly there's the predicted escalated violence, and now we turn around and play the Israel card, and cancel the meeting with Arafat because he isn't doing enough to stem the violence.
This doesn't make sense.
And then Israel doesn't withdraw and keeps going, and not surprisingly there's the predicted escalated violence, and now we turn around and play the Israel card, and cancel the meeting with Arafat because he isn't doing enough to stem the violence.
This doesn't make sense.
The Palestinians have no police/government force to establish and keep peace as most of them are
terrorists themselves. I believe Israel has to defend their right to LIVE. If no other police/government
or state can protect their right to LIVE then they themselves HAVE to. Put the shoe on the other foot,
what would America do if these suicide bombings were happening almost daily in our country. The
answer is we would do exactly what Israel is doing and what we HAVE done in Afghanistan. We are
?pussy footing? with the oil countries on this subject because we need their oil. WE MUST BECOME
SELF SUFFICIENT in our oil supply. I truly believe that the Palestinians and ALL nations around
them will not be satisfied until Israel is pushed into the sea. The mindset between these two peoples is
unbelievable. We Americans also need to ?lock/check entrances to our nations. If someone came into
your house and raped your wife and murdered one of your three children wouldn?t you keep your
doors locked and methodically check who you let in from now on for the protection of the rest of your
family? Then there are those that say, ?well, if we do that they have won?. Give me a break! The last
man standing wins....so who?s it gonna be???
terrorists themselves. I believe Israel has to defend their right to LIVE. If no other police/government
or state can protect their right to LIVE then they themselves HAVE to. Put the shoe on the other foot,
what would America do if these suicide bombings were happening almost daily in our country. The
answer is we would do exactly what Israel is doing and what we HAVE done in Afghanistan. We are
?pussy footing? with the oil countries on this subject because we need their oil. WE MUST BECOME
SELF SUFFICIENT in our oil supply. I truly believe that the Palestinians and ALL nations around
them will not be satisfied until Israel is pushed into the sea. The mindset between these two peoples is
unbelievable. We Americans also need to ?lock/check entrances to our nations. If someone came into
your house and raped your wife and murdered one of your three children wouldn?t you keep your
doors locked and methodically check who you let in from now on for the protection of the rest of your
family? Then there are those that say, ?well, if we do that they have won?. Give me a break! The last
man standing wins....so who?s it gonna be???
Time to LAY OUT FACTS and let people decide for themselves, instead of simply spewing rhetoric (Tripleshot) and trying to convince people that you are right.
1) In 1948 when the U.N. announced that Jews deserved a state for themselves, there were 1.2 million Palestinians living in Palestine. When Israel occupied their land, 1 million of them were forced out of their homelands. Imagine someone coming to you and saying "Sorry, you need to leave Nebraska, we know you were born here, however we have some people who deserve a place and they are worth more than you. See ya." 750,000 of those Palestinian refugees moved to the West Bank and Gaza, or Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, or any other surrounding Arab countries. 250,000 simply packed up and left, and some of them probably live in your neighborhood.
2) At this point, both Sharon and Arafat are OBSTACLES to the peace process. They have hated each other for their entire lives -- they only wish to see each other dead. It is impossible to achieve any sort of resolution when both parties loathe each other to their respective cores.
3) The Palestinian civilians are, undoubtedly, just as disenfranchised (if not more) than Israeli citizens. Palestinians (when their houses are not being bulldozed and their refugee camps destroyed by Israeli tanks and bulldozers) are rounded up by the thousand (Israel arrests thousands as Powell flies in -- 4/12/2002) simply because they are Palestinian.
You decide.
1) In 1948 when the U.N. announced that Jews deserved a state for themselves, there were 1.2 million Palestinians living in Palestine. When Israel occupied their land, 1 million of them were forced out of their homelands. Imagine someone coming to you and saying "Sorry, you need to leave Nebraska, we know you were born here, however we have some people who deserve a place and they are worth more than you. See ya." 750,000 of those Palestinian refugees moved to the West Bank and Gaza, or Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, or any other surrounding Arab countries. 250,000 simply packed up and left, and some of them probably live in your neighborhood.
2) At this point, both Sharon and Arafat are OBSTACLES to the peace process. They have hated each other for their entire lives -- they only wish to see each other dead. It is impossible to achieve any sort of resolution when both parties loathe each other to their respective cores.
3) The Palestinian civilians are, undoubtedly, just as disenfranchised (if not more) than Israeli citizens. Palestinians (when their houses are not being bulldozed and their refugee camps destroyed by Israeli tanks and bulldozers) are rounded up by the thousand (Israel arrests thousands as Powell flies in -- 4/12/2002) simply because they are Palestinian.
You decide.
Red Dawn
Elite Member
- Jun 4, 2001
- 57,529
- 3
- 0
An interesting commentary from the Christian Science monitor
<<The trip to Israel and the West Bank by Secretary of State Colin Powell should not be only for peace. It must also hold both sides to account for atrocities.
Yasser Arafat should admit he's failed to jail or hand over bomb plotters to Israel, and failed to tell Palestinians ? in Arabic ? that violence against Israeli civilians must stop.
Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, too, must face a reckoning by the US and others for the Israeli Army's two-week assault on West Bank cities.
While many would-be bombers were killed or captured, the utter destruction of civilian homes and urban infrastructure, especially in Jenin, was an atrocity on the order of the 1982 killing of Palestinian civilians by Israel-controlled forces in Lebanon. (See story.)
The devastation of major Palestinian cities went way beyond the army's goal of simply uprooting "the infrastructure of terror." An Israeli group called Rabbis for Human Rights yesterday stated that it is aware of many human rights violations and forms of collective punishment inflicted by the army. These include disruption of water and food supplies for civilians, demolition of homes, torture of detainees, killing of innocent civilians, and denial of care for the injured and for women in labor.
By their actions, Sharon and Arafat have set back their mutual goal of a Palestinian state. And they undermine the US goal of reducing Arab support for the Al Qaeda terrorist network.
Failing to see these wrongs will only hinder their ability to create the right peace.>>
People here act like all Palestinians are terrorists. If that's true then all Israeli's are guilty of the atrocities in the Palestinian townships. I've heard that the Israeli Army want to bury some of the Palestinian dead to coverup the mass killings that, as noted in the commentary, have been in the order of the atrocities commited by the Lebonese Christian Phalange Miltia under the watchful eyes of the Israeli's two decades earlier. Also noteworthy is the fact that in both situations Sharon had an active role. Those who rail on that the Israeli's are perfectly with in their rights to act like barbarians because some Palestinians Terrorist have been just as barbaric better be prepared for a long and devastating struggle because what Israel is doing is only going to cost them dearly in the future. The Bombings will continue, the atrocities by the IDF will continue and our war against world wide terrorism is doomed to fail.
<<The trip to Israel and the West Bank by Secretary of State Colin Powell should not be only for peace. It must also hold both sides to account for atrocities.
Yasser Arafat should admit he's failed to jail or hand over bomb plotters to Israel, and failed to tell Palestinians ? in Arabic ? that violence against Israeli civilians must stop.
Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, too, must face a reckoning by the US and others for the Israeli Army's two-week assault on West Bank cities.
While many would-be bombers were killed or captured, the utter destruction of civilian homes and urban infrastructure, especially in Jenin, was an atrocity on the order of the 1982 killing of Palestinian civilians by Israel-controlled forces in Lebanon. (See story.)
The devastation of major Palestinian cities went way beyond the army's goal of simply uprooting "the infrastructure of terror." An Israeli group called Rabbis for Human Rights yesterday stated that it is aware of many human rights violations and forms of collective punishment inflicted by the army. These include disruption of water and food supplies for civilians, demolition of homes, torture of detainees, killing of innocent civilians, and denial of care for the injured and for women in labor.
By their actions, Sharon and Arafat have set back their mutual goal of a Palestinian state. And they undermine the US goal of reducing Arab support for the Al Qaeda terrorist network.
Failing to see these wrongs will only hinder their ability to create the right peace.>>
People here act like all Palestinians are terrorists. If that's true then all Israeli's are guilty of the atrocities in the Palestinian townships. I've heard that the Israeli Army want to bury some of the Palestinian dead to coverup the mass killings that, as noted in the commentary, have been in the order of the atrocities commited by the Lebonese Christian Phalange Miltia under the watchful eyes of the Israeli's two decades earlier. Also noteworthy is the fact that in both situations Sharon had an active role. Those who rail on that the Israeli's are perfectly with in their rights to act like barbarians because some Palestinians Terrorist have been just as barbaric better be prepared for a long and devastating struggle because what Israel is doing is only going to cost them dearly in the future. The Bombings will continue, the atrocities by the IDF will continue and our war against world wide terrorism is doomed to fail.
Hmmmm......I think we had the same problem when we took America from the American Indians and
then later on held blacks and other minorities under our boot and possibly in some instances still do.
Only trouble is with this problem now in the mideast, RELIGION is also an IMPORTANT factor and
I mean the WHOLE mideast. There is a serious problem with 18 and 20 year old kids blowing
themselves up believing (brainwashed) that they are going to have a wonderful life in the hereafter
and then sponsoring schools to train children also in those warped beliefs. I place these Islam militants
(terrorists) in the same category with the KKK and the Black Panther organizations we have. Only
difference our government limits/prosecutes their activities. Of course their government doesn't as
their government has this same twisted mentality......nuff said, I'm outa here!
then later on held blacks and other minorities under our boot and possibly in some instances still do.
Only trouble is with this problem now in the mideast, RELIGION is also an IMPORTANT factor and
I mean the WHOLE mideast. There is a serious problem with 18 and 20 year old kids blowing
themselves up believing (brainwashed) that they are going to have a wonderful life in the hereafter
and then sponsoring schools to train children also in those warped beliefs. I place these Islam militants
(terrorists) in the same category with the KKK and the Black Panther organizations we have. Only
difference our government limits/prosecutes their activities. Of course their government doesn't as
their government has this same twisted mentality......nuff said, I'm outa here!
Siddhartha
Lifer
- Oct 17, 1999
- 12,505
- 3
- 81
Negotiation is the only process that is going to resolve this conflict. This means talking to the Palistians.
"When Israel occupied their land, 1 million of them were forced out of their homelands."
How exactly?
"You decide."
Decide what? Whether Palistinians are justified in killing people to get their way?
How exactly?
"You decide."
Decide what? Whether Palistinians are justified in killing people to get their way?
<< Time to LAY OUT FACTS and let people decide for themselves, instead of simply spewing rhetoric (Tripleshot) and trying to convince people that you are right.
1) In 1948 when the U.N. announced that Jews deserved a state for themselves, there were 1.2 million Palestinians living in Palestine. When Israel occupied their land, 1 million of them were forced out of their homelands. Imagine someone coming to you and saying "Sorry, you need to leave Nebraska, we know you were born here, however we have some people who deserve a place and they are worth more than you. See ya." 750,000 of those Palestinian refugees moved to the West Bank and Gaza, or Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, or any other surrounding Arab countries. 250,000 simply packed up and left, and some of them probably live in your neighborhood.
2) At this point, both Sharon and Arafat are OBSTACLES to the peace process. They have hated each other for their entire lives -- they only wish to see each other dead. It is impossible to achieve any sort of resolution when both parties loathe each other to their respective cores.
3) The Palestinian civilians are, undoubtedly, just as disenfranchised (if not more) than Israeli citizens. Palestinians (when their houses are not being bulldozed and their refugee camps destroyed by Israeli tanks and bulldozers) are rounded up by the thousand (Israel arrests thousands as Powell flies in -- 4/12/2002) simply because they are Palestinian. >>
Talk about rhetoric; this is about as devoid of facts as could possibly be.
Red Dawn
Elite Member
- Jun 4, 2001
- 57,529
- 3
- 0
<< Were we being "barbaric" to the Taliban? >>
Not unless we were bulldozing down houses in towns where known family members of Taliban lived, killing innocent Afgans just to make sure we got the Taliban too, leave dead Afgans, whether taliban or not, lying dead in the streets to rot. If we did that then we were Barbaric. I don't think any American troops shot and killed children either.
I fail to see this kind of thinking....
"You hit me I'll hit you back harder, so give in" Both sides act like they are in the playground of the world and want to be the biggest bully on the block.
The Jews return in 1948, displace the Palistinians and now over 50 years later they seek revenge.
Israel, defeats the other Arab countries in 1956 & 1967. The Arabs have always called for the total destruction of Israel, and if they had the military might would do it. Point is land ownership has changed hands over of the centuries, and no one can claim they were first. But that is history that can't be changed, so why go there ? We need to go forward the way things are today.
The only answer is compromise which both sides refuse to do...so the killing continues. The other night on one TV news show some Israeli leaders stated that ONLY a military solution was the answer. Sorry, they are wrong unless there willing to exterminate all Arabs. Powell must persuade Sharon that in the long run Israel will suffer a backlash. He must also tell Arafat the if he can't control extremists then he must go away for good.
I'm more fearfull of a much wider war, because it seems that other Arab states could possibly join in this battle and we would HAVE to help Israel...time for WWIII. We (the US) always get blamed no matter what anyways. The other wild card is Iraq, right now Sadam lloks like the cat that ate the canary being cloaked by this conflict. Beleive me if he (Sadam) could he would totally destroy us...and is fast having the capability to do so.
If things stay as they are, then a bigger war is sure to follow and we (US) will be in the thick of it all.
"You hit me I'll hit you back harder, so give in" Both sides act like they are in the playground of the world and want to be the biggest bully on the block.
The Jews return in 1948, displace the Palistinians and now over 50 years later they seek revenge.
Israel, defeats the other Arab countries in 1956 & 1967. The Arabs have always called for the total destruction of Israel, and if they had the military might would do it. Point is land ownership has changed hands over of the centuries, and no one can claim they were first. But that is history that can't be changed, so why go there ? We need to go forward the way things are today.
The only answer is compromise which both sides refuse to do...so the killing continues. The other night on one TV news show some Israeli leaders stated that ONLY a military solution was the answer. Sorry, they are wrong unless there willing to exterminate all Arabs. Powell must persuade Sharon that in the long run Israel will suffer a backlash. He must also tell Arafat the if he can't control extremists then he must go away for good.
I'm more fearfull of a much wider war, because it seems that other Arab states could possibly join in this battle and we would HAVE to help Israel...time for WWIII. We (the US) always get blamed no matter what anyways. The other wild card is Iraq, right now Sadam lloks like the cat that ate the canary being cloaked by this conflict. Beleive me if he (Sadam) could he would totally destroy us...and is fast having the capability to do so.
If things stay as they are, then a bigger war is sure to follow and we (US) will be in the thick of it all.
<< Not unless we were bulldozing down houses in towns where known family members of Taliban lived, killing innocent Afgans just to make sure we got the Taliban too, leave dead Afgans, whether taliban or not, lying dead in the streets to rot. If we did that then we were Barbaric. I don't think any American troops shot and killed children either. >>
I agree, at least America was doing it in self defense. Not oppressive aggression.
I think America is too heavily invested in Israel to take action before this situation gets out of hand. We needed to be firm and stop the Israeli incurrsion right away instead of letting it inflame the whole situation. Then we needed to figure or support a boarder plan and send troops in to enforce it if needed. I guess we are just too afraid to get involved militirarily, or that we don't want to offend Israel, but I fear it's going to get worse and worse if we don't.
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