Should people on goverment disability be allowed to have children?

[Paratus]

It isn't so much that I want people to die, I don't, it's that the harsh realities of life must not be forgotten. The only reason we are capable of having ANYTHING is due to our surplus production of food. This is why not a single fucking person in the US of A should have a goddamn TV if they cannot feed themselves. They shouldn't have anything. Food and water are the most essential things to survival. If you are unable to do anything to achieve that on your own, why should we afford the rest of your "first world amenities"?

This carries over to the children of such people. It is quite brutal to allow children to suffer under such policies, but what are we to do? We cannot care for all and such is life.

World GDP is 63.04 trillion dollars. World population just hit 7 billion. So that's about $36,000/yr per family of 4. Children don't have to be left to die anymore.

I find that many conservatives only believe in welfare for criminals although they fail to realize it.

If you are a rich criminal and "to big to fail" we'll bail you out so it's not "class warfare". If you are a poor petty criminal we'll lock you up for the rest of your life, feeding clothing and sheltering you of course. But don't frakking ask us to provide any social services that might keep you out of jail. Commie bastards.

 

[Carmen813]

The system we currently have is far from perfect, but surely there are ways to make improvements.

A few months ago I went to court for a child support review. There were guys being called into court who owed $10,000, $20,000,,, all the way to $100,000. The guy who owed $100k, his mom showed up in his behalf. A couple of the people were arrested on the spot because they had not helped support their children

I do not mind helping people. But they should first be willing to help themselves.

And we are not talking about people who need disability benefits. If someone needs the benefits, then I have no issue with it.

Again, read my post and look up the information I provided. You made a topic implying you wanted to have a real discussion of this issue, it shouldn't take you more than 15-30 minutes to get a basic overview of the issues surrounding disability and it's history. The case I cited deals specifically with mental illness and state forced sterilization. The remarkable sadness about disability is that these narratives have been cycling for literally thousands of years. It never changes, people always think we should prevent those with disabilities from having the same rights as the rest of us.

There are many problems with child support payments. I'm currently working as a mental health counselor/case management intern with the VA and work with Veterans who have serious mental illness. Some of my vets owe back payments, and the reasons are complex. It's not enough to simply look at a number and say these people are irresponsible. Life is more complicated than that. Child support systems have been traditionally stacked against fathers.

Regarding disability benefits: How do you determine who needs them? How do you know the woman you know doesn't need them? What does "need" mean? And with regards to the woman you know, what do you actually know about bipolar disorder?

People with disabilities are not leeches on society. They are people. Every single person posting in this thread is living in a temporarily ABLE body. We can learn a great deal about ourselves (as a society) based upon the challenges people with disabilities have. Furthermore, these people also have a very unique knowledge that makes us better as a whole. There is in fact a great deal of strength and positive qualities that people living with disabilities possess, but we act as if the only way a person can be worthy in this society is if they can be a piece of the economic cog. There are significantly more important forms of worth in my opinion.

 

[davmat787]

I'm on private disability + forced SSI and am tempted to relate my story if enough people feel it would add to the discussion and maybe provide some perspective. I am tempted to see if anyone feels like I am "leeching" so to speak. It is not easy to talk about, but not impossible. Don't want to be an attention whore either of course.

What do you think, would it potentially add to this thread or not?

 

[Carmen813]

Society didn't create the children, individuals chose to do that, so why should society ever be held responsible for the children in it? i don't disagree that we should better our children, but there is a point where you put your foot down and someone who is incapable of feeding themselves certainly shouldn't have children and we certainly shouldn't be on the dole for them. you are enslaving us into child rearing and that's bullshit.


I didn't take that from his post at all, I just read it as what would be the first things to go when we hit our spending cap and really have to start pulling things in.

Child rearing involves substantially more than what we are talking about here. It's quite sad that you would compare what we are discussing to enslavement, that's actually rather insulting towards what slavery actually entails.

Simply put, our society has substantially more to gain than we have to lose from helping the children of others. This isn't really that complex, it just means you need to look at the world from more than an individual viewpoint. I'm not saying these programs are flawless, in fact they very much are not. However, it's also not fair to ignore their positive aspects. They help to reduce poverty, which means children are more likely to succeed. That is an economic incentive. It reduces health costs long term. That's economic incentive. It also helps reduce crime, provided economic incentive. There are other examples, but you get the point.

Basically I'm saying we shouldn't hit ourselves to spite our own face.

It's very easy to start labeling and pointing fingers when times are tough like they have been the past few years. I think rather than looking at those who have very little and trying to take more of it away we should perhaps rather look to those responsible. We could easily afford these programs if they were a higher priority and people didn't automatically buy into the larger narratives we have about the disabled and poor. Narratives that are, by the by, written and reinforced by those with power and privilege who have little interest in losing either.

 

[Carmen813]

I'm on private disability + forced SSI and am tempted to relate my story if enough people feel it would add to the discussion and maybe provide some perspective. I am tempted to see if anyone feels like I am "leeching" so to speak. It is not easy to talk about, but not impossible. Don't want to be an attention whore either of course.

What do you think, would it potentially add to this thread or not?

It depends on if people are willing to listen. I'm interested, but I'm probably not the eyes/ears you need to reach.

 

[Hugo Drax]

What about a cap. lets say cap welfare/benefits to 14 kids max. After 14 kids you get no welfare above and beyond.

14 kids seems reasonable enough.

 

[davmat787]

It depends on if people are willing to listen. I'm interested, but I'm probably not the eyes/ears you need to reach.

Thanks, that's one. I will wait for some more comments, if there are anymore. If I do, would love to hear others honest opinion if my case is one that people feel falls within the legit category or not.

 

[DucatiMonster696]

Ah, but we can and we do.

It is quite clear from this post that you do not know what a straw man fallacy is.

So you think promoting what will amount to generational welfare via social welfare is not a waste of tax dollars? If you believe that spending money on useless wars is wasteful well then one can just as easily make the case that promoting generational welfare and overpopulation via flawed government polices and holding tax payers accountable via a threat of force (aka pay your taxes or go to jail) is just as equally detrimental to society in many insidious and unseen ways as an open all out war.

 

[DucatiMonster696]

World GDP is 63.04 trillion dollars. World population just hit 7 billion. So that's about $36,000/yr per family of 4. Children don't have to be left to die anymore.

I find that many conservatives only believe in welfare for criminals although they fail to realize it.

If you are a rich criminal and "to big to fail" we'll bail you out so it's not "class warfare". If you are a poor petty criminal we'll lock you up for the rest of your life, feeding clothing and sheltering you of course. But don't frakking ask us to provide any social services that might keep you out of jail. Commie bastards.

Hilarious over generalization. I can tell you that there were many "conservatives" who were more then willing to allow "to big to fail" businesses to collapse on their own so that the lesson of failure due to bad business practices and decision making would not be lost on the rest of the market.

 

[bfdd]

Child rearing involves substantially more than what we are talking about here. It's quite sad that you would compare what we are discussing to enslavement, that's actually rather insulting towards what slavery actually entails.

Simply put, our society has substantially more to gain than we have to lose from helping the children of others. This isn't really that complex, it just means you need to look at the world from more than an individual viewpoint. I'm not saying these programs are flawless, in fact they very much are not. However, it's also not fair to ignore their positive aspects. They help to reduce poverty, which means children are more likely to succeed. That is an economic incentive. It reduces health costs long term. That's economic incentive. It also helps reduce crime, provided economic incentive. There are other examples, but you get the point.

Basically I'm saying we shouldn't hit ourselves to spite our own face.

It's very easy to start labeling and pointing fingers when times are tough like they have been the past few years. I think rather than looking at those who have very little and trying to take more of it away we should perhaps rather look to those responsible. We could easily afford these programs if they were a higher priority and people didn't automatically buy into the larger narratives we have about the disabled and poor. Narratives that are, by the by, written and reinforced by those with power and privilege who have little interest in losing either.

Uh... no it is enslavement that's exactly what it is. It's not the dirty whip you and make you live in a room with a pile of your own shit dirty, but it is still enslavement. Jefferson treated his slaves fantastically, they were still slaves. The system works like this, in order to pay for social services you need my tax dollars, these social services are going to spend this money to rear children that I did not want or have anything to do with the creation of. If I refuse to pay my tax dollars for this cause the government will come and take it from me or imprison me for it til the debt is paid. This is slavery.

So if you're ok with enslaving others to your society then by all means be the slave owner you wish to be, but I do not want to live my life like that nor do I want to be viewed or treated as a slave.

Just a PSS on this matter since davmat wants to get into personal shit. My mother has had numerous back and neck surgeries, she is completely incapable of working at the moment. She is currently trying to get on SSI / Disability, but is having issues. The amount they would give her for the rest of her life is going to be significantly more than she has put in over the years even though she has always worked simply because she's never made a lot of money. This to me is wrong and I am trying to take some responsibility for her and earn more so I can help her live as well. I do the same thing for my brother who goes to an Ivy League because I do not wish him or my father to have so much debt for his education.

Personal responsibility is a beautiful thing, it's something I cherish quite dearly because the only reason I have it is my freedom and liberty. If I was property, if I was a slavem nothing would be mine not even my mistakes and that is sad.

 

[davmat787]

Uh... no it is enslavement that's exactly what it is. It's not the dirty whip you and make you live in a room with a pile of your own shit dirty, but it is still enslavement. Jefferson treated his slaves fantastically, they were still slaves. The system works like this, in order to pay for social services you need my tax dollars, these social services are going to spend this money to rear children that I did not want or have anything to do with the creation of. If I refuse to pay my tax dollars for this cause the government will come and take it from me or imprison me for it til the debt is paid. This is slavery.

So if you're ok with enslaving others to your society then by all means be the slave owner you wish to be, but I do not want to live my life like that nor do I want to be viewed or treated as a slave.

Just a PSS on this matter since davmat wants to get into personal shit. My mother has had numerous back and neck surgeries, she is completely incapable of working at the moment. She is currently trying to get on SSI / Disability, but is having issues. The amount they would give her for the rest of her life is going to be significantly more than she has put in over the years even though she has always worked simply because she's never made a lot of money. This to me is wrong and I am trying to take some responsibility for her and earn more so I can help her live as well. I do the same thing for my brother who goes to an Ivy League because I do not wish him or my father to have so much debt for his education.

Personal responsibility is a beautiful thing, it's something I cherish quite dearly because the only reason I have it is my freedom and liberty. If I was property, if I was a slavem nothing would be mine not even my mistakes and that is sad.

Sorry to hear about your mother. I can empathize, I have had more neck surgeries and procedures than I can count. The neck is a real bitch to operate on compared to other areas, so much bottlenecks through it.

Is your mother being represented by a company or lawyer that specializes in this area? You can pretty much guarantee she will be turned down, no matter what, the first two rounds. It is the third round that really matters. I was fortunate enough to have representation provided for me by Microsoft, the company has a 95% success rate. Not one of those late night firms that troll for "disabled" folk on tv.

 

[Agfadoc]

These are stupid arguments. Everyone already agreed that people who can't take care of themselves need help and both sides clearly want to help those who are in need. We are purely talking about those who refuse to take care of themselves... Yet the "puppies will die" and "babies in the trashcans" and "throw grandma off a cliff" can't seem to be left out of the argument.

Personal responsibility needs to be re established. It used to be something people worked diligently to have, honor, dignity and pride were something that communities strive for.

Now this generation of whiny, entitled, government supported parasites are a disgusting representation of the hard work the people before us worked so hard to achieve.

The people before us were tough, resilient, and could handle the ebb and flow of life, but the people today are just panty wastes, who cry at the drop of a dime and fall into a depression when life hands them one tough card.... They are soft and pathetic, and there will come a day soon when the left destroys this economy so bad the collapse will weed out the weak. It's too bad we couldn't stop you before you drove it into the dirt.

Dependency is the goal of the left. They want you "barefoot and pregnant". They refuse to empower people to stand on their own, sure they'll offer some classes here and there that they don't demand that you attend. That's how they justify stealing others money to keep these people enabled. Because the end result is they can't think past their initial emotions, and they expect everyone else to not be able to think... What's next. What will happen next, how will this turn out.

Dependency on the government means one more vote for free goodies, the left knows it, it's certainly the goal of the Democrat Politician who use these people as the useful idiots they truly are, and they don't really care about the welfare of the people, it's just the vote that counts.

 

[sportage]

Should people on goverment disability be allowed to have children?

"Not if those damn undesirables are also allowed to have kids".
Adolf Hitler
1942

 

[Paratus]

These are stupid arguments. Everyone already agreed that people who can't take care of themselves need help and both sides clearly want to help those who are in need. We are purely talking about those who refuse to take care of themselves... Yet the "puppies will die" and "babies in the trashcans" and "throw grandma off a cliff" can't seem to be left out of the argument.

Personal responsibility needs to be re established. It used to be something people worked diligently to have, honor, dignity and pride were something that communities strive for.

Now this generation of whiny, entitled, government supported parasites are a disgusting representation of the hard work the people before us worked so hard to achieve.

The people before us were tough, resilient, and could handle the ebb and flow of life, but the people today are just panty wastes, who cry at the drop of a dime and fall into a depression when life hands them one tough card.... They are soft and pathetic, and there will come a day soon when the left destroys this economy so bad the collapse will weed out the weak. It's too bad we couldn't stop you before you drove it into the dirt.

Dependency is the goal of the left. They want you "barefoot and pregnant". They refuse to empower people to stand on their own, sure they'll offer some classes here and there that they don't demand that you attend. That's how they justify stealing others money to keep these people enabled. Because the end result is they can't think past their initial emotions, and they expect everyone else to not be able to think... What's next. What will happen next, how will this turn out.

Dependency on the government means one more vote for free goodies, the left knows it, it's certainly the goal of the Democrat Politician who use these people as the useful idiots they truly are, and they don't really care about the welfare of the people, it's just the vote that counts.

Don't take this the wrong way but your posting style is very familiar.

WWYBYWB?

 

[dank69]

So you don't think promoting what will amount to generational welfare via social welfare is not a waste of tax dollars? If you believe that spending money on useless wars is wasteful well then one can just as easily make the case that promoting generational welfare and overpopulation via flawed government polices and holding tax payers accountable via a threat of force (aka pay your taxes or go to jail) is just as equally detrimental to society in many insidious and unseen ways as an open all out war.

Sir, the point I was making was that you do not know or understand the definition of a straw man fallacy. For reference, here is an example of a straw man argument:

Dependency is the goal of the left. They want you "barefoot and pregnant". They refuse to empower people to stand on their own, sure they'll offer some classes here and there that they don't demand that you attend. That's how they justify stealing others money to keep these people enabled. Because the end result is they can't think past their initial emotions, and they expect everyone else to not be able to think... What's next. What will happen next, how will this turn out.

Dependency on the government means one more vote for free goodies, the left knows it, it's certainly the goal of the Democrat Politician who use these people as the useful idiots they truly are, and they don't really care about the welfare of the people, it's just the vote that counts.

I would, however, love to see you make the argument that 'promoting generational welfare and overpopulation via flawed government polices and holding tax payers accountable via a threat of force (aka pay your taxes or go to jail) is just as equally detrimental to society in many insidious and unseen ways as an open all out war.'

 

[Agfadoc]

Don't take this the wrong way but your posting style is very familiar.

WWYBYWB?

Nobody.. Ask the mods to check my IP. There are many like me but this one is mine... Wait..Wait.. This is my rifle, this is my gun.. ok, I'm good.

 

[Agfadoc]

I would, however, love to see you make the argument that 'promoting generational welfare and overpopulation via flawed government polices and holding tax payers accountable via a threat of force (aka pay your taxes or go to jail) is just as equally detrimental to society in many insidious and unseen ways as an open all out war.'

I can't disagree, if I came to your house and demanded that you give half of your earnings to your neighbor, you would tell me to take a hike. If the neighborhood came together and demanded the same, you would likely give the same response.

The government comes to your house with the same demand with the threat of force and it's acceptable? I think not. I have to agree with that statement. It's a gangland philosophy. Pay up or we'll burn you out.

 

[dank69]

I can't disagree, if I came to your house and demanded that you give half of your earnings to your neighbor, you would tell me to take a hike. If the neighborhood came together and demanded the same, you would likely give the same response.

The government comes to your house with the same demand with the threat of force and it's acceptable? I think not. I have to agree with that statement. It's a gangland philosophy. Pay up or we'll burn you out.

The sooner you figure out that death and taxes are a part of life, the sooner you can move on to more productive thinking. That or you can make it your life's work to found a tax free country for everyone.

 

[Agfadoc]

The sooner you figure out that death and taxes are a part of life, the sooner you can move on to more productive thinking. That or you can make it your life's work to found a tax free country for everyone.

I don't think you know me well enough to make the assumption that I think taxes are unnecessary. I agree with some that small government services are supposed to provide, but to use my taxes to feed a political machine through over burdened welfare, and a leviathan government bureaucracy, was not in the contract.

 

[dank69]

I don't think you know me well enough to make the assumption that I think taxes are unnecessary. I agree with some that small government services are supposed to provide, but to use my taxes to feed a political machine through over burdened welfare, and a leviathan government bureaucracy, was not in the contract.

If you don't want me to think you are against all taxes, don't make ridiculous statements such as the bolded below:

I can't disagree, if I came to your house and demanded that you give half of your earnings to your neighbor, you would tell me to take a hike. If the neighborhood came together and demanded the same, you would likely give the same response.

The government comes to your house with the same demand with the threat of force and it's acceptable? I think not. I have to agree with that statement. It's a gangland philosophy. Pay up or we'll burn you out.

You make it sound like 100% of your taxes go towards welfare, when you damn well know it doesn't.

 

[Agfadoc]

If you don't want me to think you are against all taxes, don't make ridiculous statements such as the bolded below:
You make it sound like 100% of your taxes go towards welfare, when you damn well know it doesn't.

Look, you don't know me, I get it. However if you want to talk to me like I'm your bitch, then we're going to have a problem.

If you read it that way, then that's YOUR problem. The taxes they take are used for things that both sides hate. AND if they come to your house to support a cause that you disagree with, they'll burn your house down too.

A figure of speech:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Figure_of_speech

 

[Mursilis]

I have noticed that there always seems to be support and money available for killing people, for example how much did the US spend and is spending on the Iraqi and Afghanistan wars? How many people here are against supporting the woman in the OP and would support a war with Iran?

Some of you are freaking out about helping a woman who has pretty serious mental problems and who is pregnant too. Someone actually blamed the budget deficit on helping people. And there been suggestions that border on government forced abortions and ferilizations.

What does that say about your values?

Probably the same thing it says about your values. How many poor people not related to you do you personally support?

 

[Mursilis]

Thanks, that's one. I will wait for some more comments, if there are anymore. If I do, would love to hear others honest opinion if my case is one that people feel falls within the legit category or not.

Sure, it's relevant. Go ahead and share. As you can see from others, there's a very low standard regarding what gets posted here.

 

[ericlp]

I think a better Q:

Should we let mothers that like cocain, crack and drink all the time have kids?

Most premature babies are due to drugs and it cost millions of dollars to have a prema baby..... And it get's even better most of the kids will need medical help for the rest of their lives and are usually put on disability that we get to pay for forever.

Yep, the Kids are usually retarded in some form that just repeat the cycle over and over... WhoooHooo! Can I have my food stamps now?????

 

[dank69]

Look, you don't know me, I get it. However if you want to talk to me like I'm your bitch, then we're going to have a problem.

If you read it that way, then that's YOUR problem. The taxes they take are used for things that both sides hate. AND if they come to your house to support a cause that you disagree with, they'll burn your house down too.

A figure of speech:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Figure_of_speech

If you don't want me to talk to you like you're my bitch, then do us all a favor and save the fallacies for a different forum. Otherwise, I'll talk to you however I please.