Should people on goverment disability be allowed to have children?

[Carmen813]

Uh... no it is enslavement that's exactly what it is. It's not the dirty whip you and make you live in a room with a pile of your own shit dirty, but it is still enslavement. Jefferson treated his slaves fantastically, they were still slaves. The system works like this, in order to pay for social services you need my tax dollars, these social services are going to spend this money to rear children that I did not want or have anything to do with the creation of. If I refuse to pay my tax dollars for this cause the government will come and take it from me or imprison me for it til the debt is paid. This is slavery.

So if you're ok with enslaving others to your society then by all means be the slave owner you wish to be, but I do not want to live my life like that nor do I want to be viewed or treated as a slave.

Just a PSS on this matter since davmat wants to get into personal shit. My mother has had numerous back and neck surgeries, she is completely incapable of working at the moment. She is currently trying to get on SSI / Disability, but is having issues. The amount they would give her for the rest of her life is going to be significantly more than she has put in over the years even though she has always worked simply because she's never made a lot of money. This to me is wrong and I am trying to take some responsibility for her and earn more so I can help her live as well. I do the same thing for my brother who goes to an Ivy League because I do not wish him or my father to have so much debt for his education.

Personal responsibility is a beautiful thing, it's something I cherish quite dearly because the only reason I have it is my freedom and liberty. If I was property, if I was a slavem nothing would be mine not even my mistakes and that is sad.

Saying it's enslavement over and over does not make it so. People pay taxes for lots of things they don't like, understand, or use.

Many rant on and on about personal responsibility but are very quick and keen to dismiss their societal responsibility or their responsibility to others. And that is not being personally responsible.

I also disagree with your sentiment that a slave cannot own anything. Simply untrue, but then again, it requires you to value more than the dollar.

 

[Carmen813]

When the citizens will not govern themselves, then it is the job of the government to govern them.

Self-govern starts with self-control.

Those that can not control themselves, should be controlled by the government.

Without self-control, and without control from the government, we are left with anarchy.

This statement is alarming on many levels.

 

[HeXen]

IF there was an easy solution, then we wouldn't have a problem.

 

[Attic]

It's not do we allow them,.. no one should have a position of power to ask that question, hopefully never will. Should we stop them?, hell no.

I get chills thinking about living under a kind of rule that feels it's justified to make this call on someones lifestyle.

Stop subsiding the behavior by lowering/removing the child tax credits. If someone wants a kid out of stupidity, or love, or desire or whatever, sure,.. but don't foster the behavior by giving substantial tax credits.

 

[PeshakJang]

Stop subsiding the behavior by lowering/removing the child tax credits. If someone wants a kid out of stupidity, or love, or desire or whatever, sure,.. but don't foster the behavior by giving substantial tax credits.

This is the answer. But the second you suggest it, the left goes crazy about how you would be punishing the children, it's not in the best interests of society, it's inhumane, etc.

You can't win an argument with somebody when his argument comes from a place of emotion rather than logic. This is why the left has been so successful in winning these ridiculous arguments.

 

[Carmen813]

This is the answer. But the second you suggest it, the left goes crazy about how you would be punishing the children, it's not in the best interests of society, it's inhumane, etc.

You can't win an argument with somebody when his argument comes from a place of emotion rather than logic. This is why the left has been so successful in winning these ridiculous arguments.

Why exactly is emotion worth less than logic? Many in our culture pretend logic and emotion are not interwoven, which they are. I find it saddening that many disregard emotions when they serve extremely important and valid purposes. Yet many wonder why so many in our society have problems with mental health. We have emotions for important reasons, don't ignore them and assume they have less worth than logic.

Peshka,
You've decided that the other "sides" argument is wrong and are attempting to convince others that those opinions are "emotionally" based. You are doing so because at some point you learned emotion is undervalued in our culture, with many negative connotations associated with it such as it being "feminine" and "weak." It's a crude ploy to discredit the other side without actually needing to recognize the merits of their argument or defend your own. It's a flight from serious discussion and allows you to escape without having to question your own beliefs. You then decide the whole argument is ridiculous since you can't stomach having to actually think about these issues in a more complex manner.

It's not a ridiculous discussion, you are just afraid to consider you might be wrong. Ultimately, that's to your own detriment.

Unfortunately this thread is turning into another circle jerk about the woes of social welfare systems while ignoring many of the issues the OP brought up, specifically regarding disability, mental illness, and welfare systems. There is quite a bit of ableism in this thread, and the sad thing is so many choose to remain unaware that this discussion has all happened before with devastating results. Unless you choose to learn about it, the cycle will simply continue.

 

[IGBT]

and behind it all are the "social justice" racketeers pillaging and robbing the tax payer with their endless emotional excuses.

 

[bfdd]

Carmen why do you come off as such an emotional tool? Emotions have their place, but a lot of the time they're non-sense and mostly just getting in the way. Emotions almost always are a direct response to your own fears for your own well being. Since you don't want to be the person suffering you think if you help them you'll never suffer, that's the emotional relief you get. That's why you can feel all good and helpful cleaning trash up at the park, then you come back the next day and it's trashed again. Reality sets in, your emotions, that feel goodness you did, didn't really fucking matter to anyone but you because the others don't give a shit.

 

[DucatiMonster696]

Sir, the point I was making was that you do not know or understand the definition of a straw man fallacy. For reference, here is an example of a straw man argument:


I would, however, love to see you make the argument that 'promoting generational welfare and overpopulation via flawed government polices and holding tax payers accountable via a threat of force (aka pay your taxes or go to jail) is just as equally detrimental to society in many insidious and unseen ways as an open all out war.'

Do the crime stats, drop out rates, teen pregnancy rates, etc lie? In almost every category of government statistical record keeping that demonstrates the social ills faced in the US we have groups of people dominating and taking the lead in these categories who are generational welfare recipients.

These ills are all seen in great abundance in segments of our population who have been the largest recipients of social welfare. This occurs because time and time again negative behaviors have been encouraged to continue via flawed governmental social polices that have hurt not helped poor people longer then any physical shooting war has ever lasted in this nation's history. The "War on Poverty" by government is a perpetual war that does not solve anything but it sure guarantees that people will learn nothing and continue with their same old pattern of behaviors as long as government subsidizes their lifestyles.

TLR - Thomas Sowell sums up the position very well in a rebuttal and dismantling of Helen O'Banion.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2GklCBvS-eI

 

[Texashiker]

This statement is alarming on many levels.

Thomas Jefferson believed people have the ability to govern themselves.

However, when the people neglect their responsibility to govern themselves, then the government must step forward and govern them.

 

[Mursilis]

Many rant on and on about personal responsibility but are very quick and keen to dismiss their societal responsibility or their responsibility to others. And that is not being personally responsible.

And what is my societal responsibility, or responsibility to others? I always thought it was just to leave them alone, and not infringe on the rights and freedoms of others.

 

[Texashiker]

And what is my societal responsibility, or responsibility to others?

Some people think you should send them money so they do not have to work.

So your responsibility is to support the lazy moochers.

 

[actuarial]

Thomas Jefferson believed people have the ability to govern themselves.

However, when the people neglect their responsibility to govern themselves, then the government must step forward and govern them.

Like when they refuse to get their kids vaccinated?

 

[dank69]

Do the crime stats, drop out rates, teen pregnancy rates, etc lie? In almost every category of government statistical record keeping that demonstrates the social ills faced in the US we have groups of people dominating and taking the lead in these categories who are generation welfare recipients.

These ills are all seen in great abundance in segments of our population who have been the largest recipients of social welfare. This occurs because time and time again negative behaviors have been encouraged to continue via flawed governmental social polices that have hurt not helped poor people longer then any physical shooting war has ever lasted in this nation's history. The "War on Poverty" by government is a perpetual war that does not solve anything but it guarantees that people will learn nothing and continue with their same old pattern of behaviors as long as government subsidies their lifestyles.

TLR - Thomas Sowell sums up the position very well in a rebuttal and dismantling of Helen O'Banion.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2GklCBvS-eI

Even if your point is valid, the issue is not nearly as important as the amount of money in our political system.

 

[Tom]

They also don't have any business stealing money from the productive to support some people, who won't do anything to help themselves, their whole lives....but they do. The simple solution to the conundrum is let people live the life they are willing to work and save for, as it used to be.

It never was that way. Fossil records indicate that early primates supported those who couldn't provide for themselves.

btw, anyone who is "productive", this is what your "production" is for, not unlimited amounts of personal greed and consumerism.

 

[Attic]

snip...

TLR - Thomas Sowell sums up the position very well in a rebuttal and dismantling of Helen O'Banion.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2GklCBvS-eI

Yes, exactly!, nice link. But arguing this to a liberal is like trying to put a square peg into a round hole since they demand their position is where policy should stem.

This is exactly why they argue emotionally and intend to character assassinate the opposition rather than debate the legitimacy or end game of a policy effects. If welfare is shown to subsidize failure, the person making that argument is a rasicst or a bigot or "just doesn't get it", there are no arguments of why welfare doesn't subsidize failure, it's just that the other side is wrong because a liberal's position is without question the correct one.

 

[Mursilis]

It never was that way. Fossil records indicate that early primates supported those who couldn't provide for themselves.

Supporting the disabled at the familial or tribal level is far different than supporting the disabled at the national level. For one, within the tribal unit, the member providing the support is usually the member also verifying the disability - thus, if the "disabled" really isn't disabled, the provider can cut off support. When you expand the scale to the national level, you lose that connection. I work with disability issues, and the abuse is ridiculous.

 

[Carmen813]

Do the crime stats, drop out rates, teen pregnancy rates, etc lie? In almost every category of government statistical record keeping that demonstrates the social ills faced in the US we have groups of people dominating and taking the lead in these categories who are generation welfare recipients.

These ills are all seen in great abundance in segments of our population who have been the largest recipients of social welfare. This occurs because time and time again negative behaviors have been encouraged to continue via flawed governmental social polices that have hurt not helped poor people longer then any physical shooting war has ever lasted in this nation's history. The "War on Poverty" by government is a perpetual war that does not solve anything but it guarantees that people will learn nothing and continue with their same old pattern of behaviors as long as government subsidies their lifestyles.

TLR - Thomas Sowell sums up the position very well in a rebuttal and dismantling of Helen O'Banion.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2GklCBvS-eI

Correlation does not equal causation. This argument also has the stink of classism within it.
Argument dismantled.

 

[Carmen813]

Thomas Jefferson believed people have the ability to govern themselves.

However, when the people neglect their responsibility to govern themselves, then the government must step forward and govern them.

Thomas Jefferson died a long time ago.

 

[DucatiMonster696]

Correlation does not equal causation.

So can you explain to me how and why the rates of teenage pregnancies, drop outs and crime stats amongst welfare recipients have trended so high despite the massive infusion into the welfare system over the decades that this system is supposed to alleviate if not eliminate?

This argument also has the stink of classism within it.

Truth of what welfare does to the poor and how it continues to encourage bad decision making never smells right to folks like you I take it.

[/QUOTE]Argument dismantled.[/QUOTE]

You've done nothing of the sort and have made no actual salient points.

 

[JSt0rm]

I
Stop subsiding the behavior by lowering/removing the child tax credits. If someone wants a kid out of stupidity, or love, or desire or whatever, sure,.. but don't foster the behavior by giving substantial tax credits.

This is the answer. But the second you suggest it, the left goes crazy about how you would be punishing the children, it's not in the best interests of society, it's inhumane, etc.

You can't win an argument with somebody when his argument comes from a place of emotion rather than logic. This is why the left has been so successful in winning these ridiculous arguments.

What are you 2 bozos talking about?

Child tax credits are a incentive for productive people to have children. Why would you remove this?

One way out of our debt problems it to grow the number of productive people living in the country i.e more kids.

 

[hal2kilo]

Our country has denied aid to other countries that think controlling their population growth is a worthy goal.

Why change now.

BTW I have a retarted, oops that's not PC, mentally handicapped brother. He should not be procreating!

 

[chucky2]

That's a terrible way to punish the planet, and long term ourselves, to solve a spending problem We've created.

We should a.) lock down the border so we don't let in 1/2 of countries and then all their children, grandchildren, great-grandchildren, and so on long term, thereby vastly increasing our population, and b.) have incentives that make it very attractive to have no or less kids. Free birth control (including vasectomy and tubal's), free abortion (up to a certain developed point of fetus).

More kids...unreal...

 

[Nebor]

When the citizens will not govern themselves, then it is the job of the government to govern them.

Self-govern starts with self-control.

Those that can not control themselves, should be controlled by the government.

Without self-control, and without control from the government, we are left with anarchy.

Absolutely this. And the fact is, virtually no one is fit to control themselves in this complicated, modern world. That's part of the reason why the passage of Senate Bill 1867 is so crucial.

 

[hal2kilo]

Absolutely this. And the fact is, virtually no one is fit to control themselves in this complicated, modern world. That's part of the reason why the passage of Senate Bill 1867 is so crucial.

I 2nd the vote for authoritarianism.