Should don't ask, don't tell be repealed?

[her209]

Why should anyone in the military be asking (or telling) their sexual orientation in the first place (be it heterosexual or homosexual)?

I would think it comes up naturally in conversations when talking about their civilian life, people in their personal life, etc.

 

[Zargon]

You didn't have showers in public school for gym class and athletics? I don't mean open to the public. I mean for the students.


- wolf

NOPE. We have the showers, no one uses them. Except one creeper coach made his team shower and showered with them

 

[Modelworks]

It opens the door to blackmail/exploitation since anyone who finds out about a members sexual tendencies could use the information to harm the individual.

They will still do that.

 

[her209]

NOPE. We have the showers, no one uses them. Except one creeper coach made his team shower and showered with them

Wow. WTF!?

 

[PrinceofWands]

They will still do that.

If it's in the open, and not allowed for discrimination, that's not possible. The ONLY time it works is if it's hidden. Once it's open, it loses all its power.

 

[Modelworks]

NOPE. We have the showers, no one uses them. Except one creeper coach made his team shower and showered with them

I can remember showering in the locker room when I was 11 and the coach walking around. That would never be allowed now , everyone would be saying he was a pedophile. I honestly never thought about it that way at the time. Makes me wonder if we have advanced or regressed .

 

[Zargon]

Wow. WTF!?

yeah.

looking back, someone should have really said something

he would walk from his office to the shower naked(office was attached to the locker rooms). I saw him naked a few times from being at my gym locker for various practices/weight lifting even though I didnt play basketball.

Now he is a Dean, its just.....wrong.

 

[Modelworks]

If it's in the open, and not allowed for discrimination, that's not possible. The ONLY time it works is if it's hidden. Once it's open, it loses all its power.

Anytime something is not acceptable to the larger group discrimination will happen, the rules only help if the victim tries to use them, in the military that is a career killer.
Examples:

Guy doesn't want others in unit to know he is gay, but someone finds out and blackmails him.Or the middle of a fire fight the commander sends the gay guy to the front because he knows he is gay and doesn't like him. Guy is assigned to a unit where he is openly gay so the other members continually tease and harass him, he could report it but it will not stop the harassment and could end his career.

 

[MJinZ]

Gays are already in your locker rooms and have been since the beginning of time, yet somehow sexual chaos hasn't descended upon us.

If it really bothers you that much I think there is a larger problem in how secure you really are with your own sexuality.

Yep, how uncomfortable this makes people in the locker rooms should dictate whether or not someone is discriminated against in the work place.

 

[her209]

Anytime something is not acceptable to the larger group discrimination will happen, the rules only help if the victim tries to use them, in the military that is a career killer.
Examples:

Guy doesn't want others in unit to know he is gay, but someone finds out and blackmails him.Or the middle of a fire fight the commander sends the gay guy to the front because he knows he is gay and doesn't like him. Guy is assigned to a unit where he is openly gay so the other members continually tease and harass him, he could report it but it will not stop the harassment and could end his career.

What about a soldier who has problems taking orders from his gay commander?

 

[Modelworks]

What about a soldier who has problems taking orders from his gay commander?

That could happen too.

 

[JS80]

What about a soldier who has problems taking orders from his gay commander?

Execute them on the spot

 

[MJinZ]

I actually didn't know that, but it's an interesting point. There are some sexual politics here, but something tells me that women have less of an issue with the "shower room" type arguments than men. Also, I am betting that a higher proportion of females serving in the military are gay than males. I am stereotyping, I know, but I'm still betting that I'm correct.

- wolf

Good point. Do women care about getting naked with other women? According to shows like Sex and the City awe, not really. Do women worry about other women getting turned on in the same room? I doubt it.

 

[xj0hnx]

Yep, how uncomfortable this makes people in the locker rooms should dictate whether or not someone is discriminated against in the work place.

The military isn't just a "work place". It's a completely different culture than anything in the civilian world. When you join, you give up a LOT of rights.

 

[Modelworks]

The military isn't just a "work place". It's a completely different culture than anything in the civilian world.

Very true.
I can honestly say that I have never worried if the copy guy or the secretary has my back should the bullets start flying.

I think THAT is the important distinction.

 

[Moonbeam]

The big problem with DADT in my opinion, is that it treats straight soldiers as if they were babies, too emotionally immature to handle the fact that some people are gay. If you can't handle the idea that somebody of the same sex might look at your ass you're not fit to join a team that puts lives in the hands of the members.

 

[Carmen813]

What about a soldier who has problems taking orders from his gay commander?

You do the exact same thing you would do if it the commander was straight. A lawful order is a lawful order, and it doesn't matter who it comes from.

 

[PrinceofWands]

Anytime something is not acceptable to the larger group discrimination will happen, the rules only help if the victim tries to use them, in the military that is a career killer.
Examples:

Guy doesn't want others in unit to know he is gay, but someone finds out and blackmails him.Or the middle of a fire fight the commander sends the gay guy to the front because he knows he is gay and doesn't like him. Guy is assigned to a unit where he is openly gay so the other members continually tease and harass him, he could report it but it will not stop the harassment and could end his career.

The fallacy is that those things can ONLY happen when being gay is not allowed. Once the rules regarding sexuality are removed the gay soldier gets the same protections as everyone else. Therefore ANY singling out or abuse of this individual earns the abusers punishment.

Problems with homosexuality are the fault/responsibility of those who have a problem with it, not those it's directed at. It's the EXACT same thing as people who have a problem with blacks, or mexicans, or atheists, or women, or ANY other form of bigotry and discrimination. Once the discrimination is made illegal, it begins to abate and society slowly evolves out of it (mostly).

 

[PrinceofWands]

What about a soldier who has problems taking orders from his gay commander?

Then dishonorably discharge him for failing to obey a lawful order. It's not rocket science.

 

[PrinceofWands]

Very true.
I can honestly say that I have never worried if the copy guy or the secretary has my back should the bullets start flying.

I think THAT is the important distinction.

No, the distinction is that bigots can't see past their own ignorance and prejudiced. If anyone should be barred from military service its people who discriminate. *yes, I get the irony*

 

[Modelworks]

The fallacy is that those things can ONLY happen when being gay is not allowed. Once the rules regarding sexuality are removed the gay soldier gets the same protections as everyone else. Therefore ANY singling out or abuse of this individual earns the abusers punishment.

The fallacy is that changing a rule will make it somehow okay. Report someone else in the military for anything and you better be sure it is worth it. Soldiers in a unit are very close and someone making waves isn't liked. It isn't like a job where you file a complaint and go home at 5pm. In the military you file a complaint and everyone knows about it and you go home with them.

 

[PrinceofWands]

The fallacy is that changing a rule will make it somehow okay. Report someone else in the military for anything and you better be sure it is worth it. Soldiers in a unit are very close and someone making waves isn't liked. It isn't like a job where you file a complaint and go home at 5pm. In the military you file a complaint and everyone knows about it and you go home with them.

I was in the military, I know very well how it works.

It's beneficial that it works that way, because it convinces those who don't belong to leave...like bigots. If they're punished for their bigotry they'll eventually leave, or stop joining in the first place. The problem solves itself when everyone enjoys equal protection.

 

[xj0hnx]

I was in the military, I know very well how it works.

It's beneficial that it works that way, because it convinces those who don't belong to leave...like bigots. If they're punished for their bigotry they'll eventually leave, or stop joining in the first place. The problem solves itself when everyone enjoys equal protection.

What branch? What'd you do? While your theory may be true, if you were in the same military I was, you know that's not how it is going to work.

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

Don't Ask, Don't Tell was useful as a stopgap measure, but I always had a hard time justifying it when I used to brief young Airmen on it when I was in the service. I would jettison it and open up the service to openly gay men and women.

 

[PrinceofWands]

What branch? What'd you do? While your theory may be true, if you were in the same military I was, you know that's not how it is going to work.

Navy. COMNAVSURVFLANT, 92-94. I realize most will claim that's not a 'real' military experience, but the UCMJ doesn't change because of where you serve. Rules are rules, and they will (eventually) be followed everywhere.

I'm not saying it would go smoothly, but it would eventually happen. At least the same degree it has with blacks, and to a lesser extent women (though there's still far too much discrimination there).