Theb
Diamond Member
- Feb 28, 2006
- 3,533
- 9
- 76
So if you don't know he's gay he won't get an erection? Are you sure you've thought this through?
So if you don't know he's gay he won't get an erection? Are you sure you've thought this through?
werepossum
Elite Member
- Jul 10, 2006
- 29,873
- 463
- 126
We invaded Iraq, overturned its government, and instituted a completely new form of government and you don't consider that a win? Man, you're a tough crowd.
Timothy McVeigh blew up the Oklahoma Federal Building, so I suppose in your world we're still fighting the Civil War too. Get a clue, dude.
And that doesn't even include the fact that black is spelled b l a c k and homosexual is spelled h o m o s e x u a l. A huge difference. They don't even sound the same.
werepossum
Elite Member
- Jul 10, 2006
- 29,873
- 463
- 126
MarkXIX
Platinum Member
- Jan 3, 2010
- 2,642
- 1
- 71
I have a lot to say on this matter, so bear with me.
I have served in the Army Reserve for 15 years. I joined as a Military Policeman, one of the only job specialties in the service where women serve in combat roles right along side their male counterparts. I spent the first 12 years as enlisted and the last 3 years as an officer.
In that time I have personally served with two gay females, both who were open about their relationships. The male soldiers generally bonded with and protected both of them and no one had issue with it. I also work with a gay female and her partner who both successfully served in the Army as soldiers, got out, and now serve admirably and honorably as Army civilians.
I am also sure that I have served with gay males, probably in the conditions most of you fear (open bay showers, shared sleeping quarters, etc.). Statistically, it is probably impossible that I have NOT been in that situation and it made no difference. I am, however, secure in both my masculinity and my sexuality to be able to handle the situation, regardless.
Here's my general opinion on the matter for those that assume a gay male is attracted to them uncontrollably. Have you ever worked with a female co-worker that you know was attracted to you, but you weren't attracted to her? I have, several times. The only way to deal with it is through honesty and professionalism. No different in dealing with a gay co-worker who takes a liking to you. If they harass you, then its harassment, period. Otherwise, if you can't handle it, it amounts to your own fear or bigotry or inability to see it from the other side.
Also, soldiers of both genders are increasingly progressive with their sexuality in today's military. Young female soldiers tend to be up front about "female issues" and their sexuality and sexual escapades. Similarly, tolerance of gays is increasingly less of an issue as well with younger male soldiers as well. Many join today having had an openly gay classmate in high school, something that even in the early to mid-90's when I was in high school was not common. I attribute some of this to the prevalence of these topics in media (Sex and the City, etc.) and to a lesser degree, internet pornography that many have grown up with.
If I had to put a demographic to intolerance of gays in the Army, it would be the inner city black males and caucasian males who grew up in small town America. Both tend to serve in combat arms specialties where "masculinity" is still king and the barrier to entry is lower than other skillsets, not that all who are in combat arms are of lower intelligence. They are similarly intolerant of females serving as well, as I've experienced first hand when female MPs attempt to apprehend, detain, or discipline such soldiers. I've taken pleasure each time in encouraging the female to exert her authority and backing her up the whole way.
Given an openly gay soldier in my charge, they would be subject to the same terms of work ethic, teamwork, and integrity as anyone else. Just like the female soldiers in the MP ranks, they would have to prove their worth by pulling their weight, much like the male soldiers do when they first arrive as Privates. I've had female soldiers take a piss next to a HMMWV tire in the open when no other option existed as part of the "team". I've seen males who were afraid to do the same for fear that someone would see them. Its about differences and respecting them that makes a team, little else matters.
Finally, overturning this policy can't come soon enough as far as I'm concerned. Too many great Americans have been ridiculed and discharged for no good reason. I have no doubt that in time this will no longer be an "issue" just as gender integration and race relations have fallen by the wayside. Similarly, I would like to see females able to serve in direct combat roles, many already have performed the task admirably and received the same awards for their combat action as males. Nearly all have been Military Police soldiers blazing the trail. Many of you will disagree with me based on superficial fears or concerns that you've never truly lived with. I've lived it and I can tell you, its not as big a problem as you might think with today's soldiers It's the "old guard" that will push back the most and they're close to retirement anyway.
I have served in the Army Reserve for 15 years. I joined as a Military Policeman, one of the only job specialties in the service where women serve in combat roles right along side their male counterparts. I spent the first 12 years as enlisted and the last 3 years as an officer.
In that time I have personally served with two gay females, both who were open about their relationships. The male soldiers generally bonded with and protected both of them and no one had issue with it. I also work with a gay female and her partner who both successfully served in the Army as soldiers, got out, and now serve admirably and honorably as Army civilians.
I am also sure that I have served with gay males, probably in the conditions most of you fear (open bay showers, shared sleeping quarters, etc.). Statistically, it is probably impossible that I have NOT been in that situation and it made no difference. I am, however, secure in both my masculinity and my sexuality to be able to handle the situation, regardless.
Here's my general opinion on the matter for those that assume a gay male is attracted to them uncontrollably. Have you ever worked with a female co-worker that you know was attracted to you, but you weren't attracted to her? I have, several times. The only way to deal with it is through honesty and professionalism. No different in dealing with a gay co-worker who takes a liking to you. If they harass you, then its harassment, period. Otherwise, if you can't handle it, it amounts to your own fear or bigotry or inability to see it from the other side.
Also, soldiers of both genders are increasingly progressive with their sexuality in today's military. Young female soldiers tend to be up front about "female issues" and their sexuality and sexual escapades. Similarly, tolerance of gays is increasingly less of an issue as well with younger male soldiers as well. Many join today having had an openly gay classmate in high school, something that even in the early to mid-90's when I was in high school was not common. I attribute some of this to the prevalence of these topics in media (Sex and the City, etc.) and to a lesser degree, internet pornography that many have grown up with.
If I had to put a demographic to intolerance of gays in the Army, it would be the inner city black males and caucasian males who grew up in small town America. Both tend to serve in combat arms specialties where "masculinity" is still king and the barrier to entry is lower than other skillsets, not that all who are in combat arms are of lower intelligence. They are similarly intolerant of females serving as well, as I've experienced first hand when female MPs attempt to apprehend, detain, or discipline such soldiers. I've taken pleasure each time in encouraging the female to exert her authority and backing her up the whole way.
Given an openly gay soldier in my charge, they would be subject to the same terms of work ethic, teamwork, and integrity as anyone else. Just like the female soldiers in the MP ranks, they would have to prove their worth by pulling their weight, much like the male soldiers do when they first arrive as Privates. I've had female soldiers take a piss next to a HMMWV tire in the open when no other option existed as part of the "team". I've seen males who were afraid to do the same for fear that someone would see them. Its about differences and respecting them that makes a team, little else matters.
Finally, overturning this policy can't come soon enough as far as I'm concerned. Too many great Americans have been ridiculed and discharged for no good reason. I have no doubt that in time this will no longer be an "issue" just as gender integration and race relations have fallen by the wayside. Similarly, I would like to see females able to serve in direct combat roles, many already have performed the task admirably and received the same awards for their combat action as males. Nearly all have been Military Police soldiers blazing the trail. Many of you will disagree with me based on superficial fears or concerns that you've never truly lived with. I've lived it and I can tell you, its not as big a problem as you might think with today's soldiers It's the "old guard" that will push back the most and they're close to retirement anyway.
You would react in your usual normal way, blush, get tongue-tied and shrink, techboyjk!
Oh Moonshine give me a break. Here is your problem, there moonpie. You want to equate homosexuality, a persons behavior, with a black persons skin color. Huge difference. Fighting for rights for the way a person behaves has not got a damn thing to with a persons skin color or ethinicty. I am not beholding to support some damn homosexual agenda because my skin is black, you moron. I am not supporting their nasty perverted behavior dude. And no they should not be allowed to openly serve in our military. Who in the hell in their right mind wants to see some guy like Adam Lambert representing the Marine core. The military is to train our young men and women to be better young men and women. What is so sick is people like you who want act like its so loving and sweet. Freaking joke.
JEDIYoda
Lifer
- Jul 13, 2005
- 33,986
- 3,321
- 126
Well fortunately your probably 7 years from having to worry about that so enjoy living under your parents roof for a few more years!!!
JEDIYoda
Lifer
- Jul 13, 2005
- 33,986
- 3,321
- 126
Jaskalas
Lifer
- Jun 23, 2004
- 35,841
- 10,146
- 136
Don Vito Corleone
Elite
- Feb 10, 2000
- 30,029
- 67
- 91
This post, like 80% of your posts, is asinine. Assuming you really served in the military (I can't imagine many actual veterans referring to the "Marine core"), as I did, your posts in this thread just demonstrate that the armed forces need to weed out a certain percentage of ignorant fools, not that they need to continue to exclude patriotic homosexuals.
sportage
Lifer
- Feb 1, 2008
- 11,492
- 3,163
- 136
[Q]This is the way I see it. Not all gay guys, but many of them creep me out. [/Q]
And don’t forget the way they eat watermelon, chicken and shuffle when that walk.
Yeah damm those watermelon chicken eating walk shuffling homos...
Hell... I bet one will even to move into my neighborhood or run for president next thing u know.
And don’t forget the way they eat watermelon, chicken and shuffle when that walk.
Yeah damm those watermelon chicken eating walk shuffling homos...
Hell... I bet one will even to move into my neighborhood or run for president next thing u know.
blackangst1
Lifer
- Feb 23, 2005
- 22,902
- 2,359
- 126
Nicely said. I agree about the office scenario. The problem most men have is, they think all gay males are attracted to all males. "I dont want him looking at my ass" or whatever. They fail to realize they are no different than straight males...who are not attrated to all females.
BTW I read a very article this morning about this very issue. When you read it, take note of the guy's rank:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8495793.stm
Viewpoint: Gay US airman
After the top US military commander, Adm Mike Mullen, tells senators it is right to lift a ban on openly gay personnel, Air Force pilot Lt Col Victor Fehrenbach - who is currently in the process of being discharged for being gay - tells BBC News what reversing the ban would mean to him.
n May of 2008, my world ended.
For 17 years, I had served my country in the Air Force honourably. I had deployed overseas five times and participated in seven major combat operations. I had been highly decorated and had risen to the rank of lieutenant colonel. In addition, I had abided by the military's corrupt, senseless "don't ask, don't tell" policy. I played by the rules. I kept my private life very private even from my family. All that came to an end when I was "outed" by a third party and reported to my military superiors.
When you discharge people with critical combat skills... this law harms our overall national security
In September of 2008, I received notification that I was going to be discharged for being gay. In April of 2009, I faced a military discharge "board" (a modern-day witch trial) that recommended me for an honourable discharge and came to a baseless conclusion that my continued service was "detrimental to good order, discipline, and morale".
After that year-long nightmare, I had nothing else to lose - they had taken my job, my livelihood, my career, my pension, my life as I knew it - but I came to the conclusion that they could never take away my honour and my sense of right and wrong.
With that, I decided to come forward and speak out in the media. I felt that telling my story might have a positive impact and help change this law. In all this time, even after I came out publicly in the national media, I have continued to serve in the Air Force, in the same job, in the same squadron, as an openly gay man - with no negative impact on good order, discipline, and morale.
Nearly one year later, in his State of the Union Address, President Barack Obama reaffirmed his promise to end this discriminatory policy in 2010.
Over the course of these months, heating up in recent weeks, I have heard proponents of this policy put forth one simple argument, with absolutely zero justification based on facts, data, scientific study, nor reason of any kind.
One of their arguments is that "it's working, it's successful". Another is a stall tactic: "This is not the time, while we are in the middle of two wars." Neither of these arguments is based in fact.
LT COL FEHRENBACH'S SERVICE
Decorated with nine medals for distinguished service in flight
Decorated for heroism the night US forces captured Baghdad International Airport in 2003
Flew F-15E jets
I can show how this law is unconstitutional - constitutional rights of privacy, due process and equal protection are violated in almost every case. I can show how this law is blatant discrimination. I can show how this law negatively affects the combat effectiveness of a military unit.
More importantly, I can show that, when you discharge people with critical combat skills, 13,500 times over, during two wars, to the tune of billions and billions of dollars in training and replacement costs, this law harms our overall national security.
Finally, I can show how this law goes against every value and principle that this great nation was founded on, that it compromises the integrity and honour not just of the individuals who are forced to serve under it but of the military institution as a whole.
"Don't ask, don't tell" is wrong - plain and simple.
I agree with President Obama, Defense Secretary Robert Gates and Adm Mullen. I support their calls for repeal and I agree that it is simply "the right thing to do".
After the Senate hearings, I have never been so proud to wear my uniform. I am proud to serve with Adm Mullen and I am proud to serve under his command.
Today represents a small step on a long journey to justice and equality but it is still a historic step nonetheless. I am optimistic. I look forward to putting my uniform on tomorrow and in days to come
Doc Savage Fan
Lifer
- Nov 30, 2006
- 15,456
- 389
- 121
werepossum
Elite Member
- Jul 10, 2006
- 29,873
- 463
- 126
Well - they kinda declared it, having authorized the use for force and deployment of the military. Congress doesn't like clear language, they want wiggle room, being mostly lawyers. And lawyers will tell you not to ever write anything that you can't argue either way 'cause you never know when you'll end up needing to argue the other side.
Sheik Yerbouti
Lifer
- Feb 16, 2005
- 14,080
- 5,453
- 136
Wow, way to prove your point.. Good job, I'm sure that made everyone much more wise to your knowledge and insight into homosexual behavior.
Now, back to reality. I hate to tell you this, but I 100% guarantee there are gays in all branches of the military, pro sports, police departments and fire departments. ((I'm referencing these because they're classified as 'manly man' jobs, careers, etc) << for classy's confusion only)
If your house was on fire or you were being robbed, and KNEW the person coming to rescue you was openly gay, would you shun them, and refuse their services because they have 'nasty perverted behavior'?
Stay classy, classy.
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God gave Classy a truly wonderful experience of grace. Some day Classy may extend the grace he received to the rest of the human race and in particular, homosexuals. You have to understand that Classy has principles, as every other bigot does. He actually believes that gays are evil. You can't expect a patriot to want evil to join the military. Classy knows there is a God, and believes in the Bible literally. He doesn't see the Biblical connection between white racists' contempt for blacks and his own contempt for gays. A bigot can only see that which supports his own case.
Most others have already said everything better than I could.
I just wanted to mention a stat that I will butcher that I heard on the radio yesterday(NPR). Somewhere around 30 other militaries have made this change and allow gay citizens to serve, it almost always comes from the civilian side, there are grumblings and feet dragging from the military and every time when it is over everyone agrees it was a non-issue and didn't cause any problems.
I just wanted to mention a stat that I will butcher that I heard on the radio yesterday(NPR). Somewhere around 30 other militaries have made this change and allow gay citizens to serve, it almost always comes from the civilian side, there are grumblings and feet dragging from the military and every time when it is over everyone agrees it was a non-issue and didn't cause any problems.
does anyone really think its not getting repealed btw?
cuz its sooo going to.
from what I am hearing from some friends, the word is already spreading the train has already left the tracks
cuz its sooo going to.
from what I am hearing from some friends, the word is already spreading the train has already left the tracks
Aww look, one of the hillfolk wandered down out of the mountains and found a computer.
Here is something to blow your mind, although I'm sure its currently blown at the concept of indoor plumbing, but here goes. A gay guy had as much choice in their sexuality as a black person has in their skin color.
it seems like they're definitely going to be making a move towards not investigating disclosures made by 3rd parties, which is a huge first step even if congress doesn't repeal the ban.
MarkXIX
Platinum Member
- Jan 3, 2010
- 2,642
- 1
- 71
A few additional points to make based on fallacies people have put forth in this discussion:
1) The military is and always will be run by civilians. It's embedded in the constitution and is the correct way to conduct business. Sure, we military types don't like the notion that a bunch of people who have never laced up their boots and loaded their magazines are making decisions, but look at all of the countries where the military runs the military. How successful have they been?
2) Tens of thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands over the history of this country have served the military and been gay while they did it. I, for one, can't wait for the first "official" gay Medal of Honor recipient to be awarded.
1) The military is and always will be run by civilians. It's embedded in the constitution and is the correct way to conduct business. Sure, we military types don't like the notion that a bunch of people who have never laced up their boots and loaded their magazines are making decisions, but look at all of the countries where the military runs the military. How successful have they been?
2) Tens of thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands over the history of this country have served the military and been gay while they did it. I, for one, can't wait for the first "official" gay Medal of Honor recipient to be awarded.
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