Should Christmas still be a national holiday?

[BoberFett]

<< it's a christian holiday >>

Since when? Do some research on the origins of Christmas, and you'll find that it's a hodge podge of traditions from all over.

 

[Windogg]

Even if Christmas was &quot;banned&quot; by the goverment, things would not change. Why? Christians make up a large chunk of the population and the Federal government has given the people the right to pricatice their religion. This means that like it or not on Christmas Day, there will be a lot of people taking time off anyway. Plus most companies will target the largest market they can (more bang for the buck) so they will target Christians as well as those practicing other religions that fall around the same time of year. Toss in the proxomity of the New Years Day and the status quo stays. Non-christian icons like Santa Claus, Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer, Frosty the Snowman, and evergreen trees will will still permeate the country to sell the &quot;Holiday Spirit&quot;.

Windogg

 

[Dedpuhl]

Boberfett

From our good friends at www.M-W.com:


Main Entry: Christ·mas
Pronunciation: 'kris-m&amp;s
Function: noun
Usage: often attributive
Etymology: Middle English Christemasse, from Old English Cristes m&aelig;sse, literally, Christ's mass
Date: before 12th century
1 : a Christian feast on December 25 or among some Eastern Orthodox on January 7 that commemorates the birth of Christ and is usually observed as a legal holiday

 

[Jugernot]

Hell yes it should be taken off the national holiday list (another would be Martin King day)!

There are only a few days of the year that I think should qualify for such an honor as a National Holiday, July 4th, Presidents day and veterans days are just a few.

 

[tinneric]

Yep!!!

 

[Raspewtin]

<< Should Christmas still be a national holiday? >>




IMO yes. Traditionally Xmas has helped many companies in the 4th quarter achieve earnings expectations. The rise in consumer confidence and buying at Christmas time is very important for economy, and without Christmas I don't think the net effect of Christmas would disperse over the rest of the year.

As far as Christmas being a Christian holiday (which is the only reason I could think a fellow Hindu would want it banned), Xmas existed long before Christ. It was a celebration of the solistice. B/c it was an already established holiday is why it was chosen to be Christmas, not b/c Jesus was born on Christmas day. If someone feels really anti-Christian for some reason, create another name and holiday and put in on the same day (which is what the Christians did and see how successful it was?) Economically, the impact of Christmas warrants it's acceptance as a national holiday. My 0.02. Personally, I wish they'd add another Christmas in late June/early July, or somehow attach a national buying spree to July 4. That would be great.

 

[glenn1]

&quot;I think Christmas should be banned because it does make an outcast of a lot of people of other religious beliefs&quot;

Fine, then we rename the holiday. It's no longer Christmas, the Federal holiday. It's now, the &quot;Mid-winter Solstice Celebration&quot; Federal holiday, celebrated on 25 December.

Problem solved. We all get our day off to either (A) commemorate the birth of Christ (christians), (B) give presents and watch claymation series about Santa Claus (secularists), or (C) sleep in (agnostics/atheists).

Holidays are about what YOU make them. In theory i suppose, if you use the logic of &quot;seperation of church and state&quot; you might come to the conclusion that we should get rid of the holiday for Christmas. But using common sense tells you it's being silly to be that doctinaire in your logic to end up with 'we should revoke the national holiday for Christmas.' In the famous words of Bill Murray, &quot;lighten up, Francis.&quot; 😉

 

[Methos1995]

Leave it to an Indian to see the financial side of such a debate that has so far been directed in the direction of whether or not Christmas should be prevented from having the endorsement of the US Government. Always the first thing on the mind of an Indian... and no, I'm not a racist - just speaking from experience. I'm Indian also. And yes, the economy did come to my mind, albeit not at first.

Now, I wonder just how the people of this &quot;great&quot; country would react if Mohammed's birthday were to be a Federally observed holiday, along with all the perks that the US Government pays to Christmas?? I bet these people would use the same argument being used to oppose the poster's stand, to oppose the newly Federally observed holiday (ie. by doing so, the government is endorsing Islam (and no people, it's not Mohammedism, or whatever someone here called it earlier!)). Other religious communities would be up in arms!!

BTW, those of you saying that Christmas has nothing to do with religion, look at the word... Christmas. Religious connotation is inherent to it. Whether or not it has been commercialized is beside the point. The fact is, the government is shutting down their ops and giving employees paid time-off, which does endorse Christmas implicitly since it is tax-payers' money paying those paychecks (indiscriminately I will add for reasons of the following). In many, if not all religions, doing or saying something or actively supporting another religion - in this case, monetarily - is viewed as an act of repentance of one's own religion in favour (oops, &quot;favor&quot; for the US audience) of the other religion, thereby severing any ties to the God he or she once proclaimed allegiance to. So, someone of a different religious persuasion could argue that his money is going towards something that could be viewed as renouncing his or her own religious beliefs (this is where the &quot;indiscriminately&quot; part comes in) since actual individual tax payers' monies (yes, it is the right word) are not tracked as to where they are going. Would those of you that say you are not a white supremist give money to a group which promotes those views?? (And please, I am not comparing the ideologies, just the situation, so no, &quot;It's not the same thing&quot; statements, for the situations are the same.)

Oh, and PS - someone earlier said something about trying to ban religious holidays in other countries like the Middle East? WTF?? Don't you know anything about anything!?! Those countries' political structures are based on religious control. They can ENDORSE any holiday the feel fit! The US however, is separation of state and religion, which on a side-note makes the statement, &quot;In God We Trust&quot; on money soooo contradictory. And don't try to use the &quot;It's a universal God&quot; argument. They sure as hell don't mean, &quot;In Allah We Trust&quot;! Or, &quot;In Yahweh(did I spell that right?) We Trust&quot;.

In conclusion, by virtue of the government Federally observing Christmas as a holiday, and not Federally observing other religions' dictates of equal importance or status, the US Government is implicitly supporting, favouring, and giving advantage to Christianity over other religions.

 

[nippyjun]

Theoretically it should not be since there is supposed to be separation of church and state. I'd prefer the day off to be called winter holiday day.

 

[JeremyJoe]

it doesnt really matter to me but it should not be forced on people if they do not want to celebrate christmas but hey im getting a break from school and that dont bother me one bit

 

[glenn1]

Methos, sorry friend, but you're being silly. Among other laws, Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 states (and i'll paraphrase), that you have the right as an employee to have time off to celebrate any recognized religious holiday that your faith affirms. There's a list of dozens, if not hundreds of qualifying holidays - I wouldn't be surprised if Mohammed's birthday was among them. I'm almost positive that Eid-al-Fitr is at least one Muslim holiday which is specifically covered. So be honest, it's not about establishing Christianity to the exclusion of other religions. If your religion dictates that it's a religious holiday, you can take off that day.

Okay, as to making a legal argument argument in court that Christmas should be repealed as a Federal/state holiday, it's already been tried - numerous times. In EVERY case, the appeals to have the holiday declared unconstitutional have been rejected. These rejections have been affirmed by Federal Circuit Courts of Appeals on numerous occasions, and review by the U.S. Supreme Court declined (reaffirming the lower court rulings). Here's a link:

Case law overview

The fellow whom Nero mentioned in his initial post, who was bringing the suit that this thread discusses, should have his case thrown out with predjudice, and declared a frivilous suit. This matter has already been decided on numerous occassions. Whether or not you like it, the U.S. Supreme Court has affirmed lower court rulings saying that the Legislature has the right to declare Federal holidays on days which also have religious connotations.

I understand the concerns of those who disagree with these decisions, but respectfully, i submit to you that the issue has been settled.

 

[EmperorNero]

<< << it's a christian holiday >>

Since when? Do some research on the origins of Christmas, and you'll find that it's a hodge podge of traditions from all over. >>



&quot;since when?&quot; AHHHHAHAHAHA. see Dedpuhl's reply: x-mas may have borrowed a few things from other religions, but its roots is in christianity, the birth of christ. hence CHRISTmas...surprising huh, boberfett?




<< LOL, that's funny. Throw it's support behind? Christmas as a federal holiday means that Christianity has the support of the US federal government behind it? Hehe, you can really read a lot into things, can't you. >>



if you think that's funny, get this: some middle age christian is too blind to see the perspectives of other people besides his own and yet still wants to argue. the hindu suing the govt is an examplar of how ostracized people of other religions percieve christmas as a christian holiday. why? because it is. now if you're not following me, I can say it again and use smaller words next time. would you like that? in addition, there are christians who got very offended because of this bill, and it's because they feel their beliefs are threatened. and they wouldn't feel that way if the U.S. has not already been favoring christianity by making christmas a holiday.



<< Even if Christmas was &quot;banned&quot; by the goverment, things would not change. Why? Christians make up a large chunk of the population and the Federal government has given the people the right to pricatice their religion.&quot;
-------
&quot;Traditionally Xmas has helped many companies in the 4th quarter achieve earnings expectations. The rise in consumer confidence and buying at Christmas time is very important for economy, and without Christmas I don't think the net effect of Christmas would disperse over the rest of the year. >>



I've already explained this. everybody's getting the feeling that their tradition is threatened. christmas not being the national holiday doesn't mean you have to stop celebrating it unless you are that incredibly weak-minded. people will still celebrate christmas, still buy presents, and still do what they did last year. the ONLY things that will change are that the U.S. just simply won't endorse the christian holiday and there will be some narrow-minded christians bitching constantly because they feel like their belief is threatened. it's the principal: if the U.S. wants to live up to its promise for religious freedom and equality, then it must stop endorsing the birth of christ when they don't do it for buddha or anyone else.




<< Theoretically it should not be since there is supposed to be separation of church and state. I'd prefer the day off to be called winter holiday day. >>



Exactly. I'm sure most respectable companies will let their workers stay home and give the reason a generic name like &quot;winter break.&quot; for example, my school lets us have &quot;spring break&quot; which also lies on easter, another christian holiday *waiting for boberfett to ram the door head first to ask &quot;since when?&quot;*


glenn1, great link. but of course, I disagree with the judge. it's still a christian holiday nonetheless. since christians are the majority, it's pretty safe to assume she's a christian. but if the judge was an non-christian, the case might take another turn. and there still are people who are ostracized because they don't believe in the birth of christ, which is what christmas is all about. and I'm sure the hindu guy will keep on fighting through the courts to do what he deems as fairness, so the issue have only been settled for now.

and my question to you, boberfett (and anyone else who argued against me to keep christmas), has not been answered: why do you feel the need to continue having christmas as a national holiday when it obviously represents a christian tradition? before answering the question, keep a few things in mind:
1) there ARE people who feel ostracized because their religious holiday isn't a national one when a christian one is
2) you can still celebrate christmas. are you weak minded enough to stop celebrating it if the govt doesn't officially support it?
3) you can still take your days off
4) notice how the only ones arguing with me are christians, I have yet to see an atheist, a hindu, or buddhist strongly defend keeping christmas (&quot;I'm not a christian but I do like getting vacations&quot; doesn't count as being a strong defense). but since I have just now said this, some christian guy might just lie about his religion being jewish. so focus on the previous 60+ posts and how none of them are strong arguments coming from non-christians. so the only ones defending christmas are the christians themselves and the others are too scared to speak out because they're afraid of being being bashed by those christians.



and judging from the replies, I think I'm going to have to pick a different legislative bill...a bill that people won't stone me for 🙂

 

[glenn1]

&quot;why do you feel the need to continue having christmas as a national holiday when it obviously represents a christian tradition?&quot;

While realizing that i only speak for myself, i feel my position is entirely consistent. I feel that having a Federal Holiday in place which recognizes Christmas is fine. Similarly, i would not have a problem with the government declaring a Federal holiday marking religious celebrations of other faiths. I'm not speaking of the practicality nor probability of such happening, but as a matter of principle, i see no problem with it whatsoever.

Personally, i think setting a Federal holiday for well-recognized days of religious significance to major faiths (Yom Kippur, Eid-al-Fitr, Bodhi Day, for example) would be entirely appropriate. You state that you think there would be significant resistance to such a move. Perhaps this might be true, i don't know. I think initial resistance could be overcome, however, once the significance of the holiday were explained to people unfamiliar with them. Perhaps i'm being overly optimistic, but there's no way to really know if it weren't tried. But i do think you'd fare better, and encounter less resistance, by advocating a position asking for the inclusion of recognition of other faiths significant days, rather than a position advocating removal of current ones.

 

[Methos1995]

Quote from Glenn1:


<< Methos, sorry friend, but you're being silly. Among other laws, Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 states (and i'll paraphrase), that you have the right as an employee to have time off to celebrate any recognized religious holiday that your faith affirms. There's a list of dozens, if not hundreds of qualifying holidays - I wouldn't be surprised if Mohammed's birthday was among them. I'm almost positive that Eid-al-Fitr is at least one Muslim holiday which is specifically covered. So be honest, it's not about establishing Christianity to the exclusion of other religions. If your religion dictates that it's a religious holiday, you can take off that day. >>


First off, how was my argument being silly??

Secondly, maybe you should have read my post more carefully. I said nothing about the US not giving time off for other faiths' holidays. My position is based on the US Federally declaring Christmas a holiday and no other religions' dictates of equal importance, hence the bolded &quot;federally&quot; in my conclusion. I know, as probably everyone here who has posted knows, that one can take any religious day off by simply notifying his or her supervisor. It's the fact that it's for the individual to make the request while everything else is &quot;business as usual&quot;. It is not so, however, in the case of Christmas. On Dec. 25th, not only does the government close their offices, but private businesses as well (of course, private business' practices have no bearing on the topic at hand, just using it for emphasis). About the only places open are hospitals, fire stations, PD's and the like. Can't you see how this can lend credence to the view, &quot;We don't believe in Mohammed's Birthday so we'll leave it up to those people to request the day off. But we secretly know that this is a Christian country so we're making it a FEDERAL mandate that we close all our offices on Christmas.&quot;

Now, I'm not saying that the people in power have to believe in ____(insert religion here), but delcaring Christmas a federal holiday while no other relions' dictates are, does give it a certain &quot;officialness&quot; (if I may use that term) over other religions. Kind of like saying, &quot;We know our religion is the right one, but to appear tolerant, we'll let you take your &quot;religious&quot; holiday off if you request it.&quot;

One more thing, and this I'll admit is kinda petty (but others here opposing this stand is using every little thing they can grasp at for their own purpose), but delcaring Christmas a federal holiday and shutting down ops could be viewed as forcing that holiday (and religion) onto others. How so, you may be asking? Well, for someone who does not celebrate it, why would he or she not be going to work and treating it like a normal day? By shutting down offices and ceasing operations for Christmas, it's forcing everyone, Christians and non-Christians alike, to treat the day differently.

So, while I do have the right as an employee to have time off to celebrate any recognized religious holiday that my faith affirms as per Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, everyone has to be subject to Christmas since it is a federally endorsed holiday. When I take a day off work for religious reasons, no one else is subjected to it. They're going to work, school, and do whatever else they do on a normal day, while on Christmas, everyone's routine (or whatever the right word would be here) is forcibly interupted to observe this very Christian holiday.

 

[Methos1995]

Now, I do like the suggestion that: quote from Glenn1: Personally, i think setting a Federal holiday for well-recognized days of religious significance to major faiths (Yom Kippur, Eid-al-Fitr, Bodhi Day, for example) would be entirely appropriate.
But this would be almost impossible. By the time they're done, we'd have more holidays than actual working days. A more fair solution might be to have one (or a couple of days in a row) of Federally recognized days that don't fall on a particularly religious date of great importance, for everyone to celebrate their own religous beliefs.

 

[fir3wir3]

no

 

[EmperorNero]

<< Federally recognized days that don't fall on a particularly religious date of great importance, for everyone to celebrate their own religous beliefs. >>



(to glenn) like methos said, adding a holiday for other religious would be impossible because there are too many religions out there and we just cannot cover them all. but I do like the suggestion above.

in fact, I love it. I think that's what I'm gonna do. thanks methos 🙂

 

[prontospyder]

I'm not a Christian and I don't mind it a bit.

Plus, most religions have the same set of &quot;core beliefs&quot;...be kind to others, not to kill, not to lie, etc... You'll be suprised at how religions are so similar despite the fighting throughout history. Having the US government observe Christmas doesn't ostracize people with these beliefs. That's why a push to take Christmas away is practically non-existent.

Finally, it gives us a day off with family and friends...which is most important to us.

 

[Dedpuhl]

You'll be suprised at how religions are so similar despite the fighting throughout history

Carl Jung, a student of S. Freud called this &quot;phenomenom&quot; the Collective Unconscious. this is the genetically determined part of the unconscious that especially in his psychoanalytic theory occurs in all the members of a people or race. He also coined the term &quot;archetype&quot; to explain this...

Definition of archetype:
an inherited idea or mode of thought in the psychology of C. G. Jung that is derived from the experience of the race and is present in the unconscious of the individual

 

[prontospyder]

Plus, that Hindu guy trying to ban Christmas should just use that energy he devotes to the lawsuits toward helping the needy, homeless, etc... It'll be much more meaningful and probably appease his gods more. 😀

 

[glenn1]

&quot;declaring Christmas a federal holiday while no other relions' dictates are, does give it a certain 'officialness' &quot;

Respectfully, i disagree. I don't think that a Federal holiday being declared to coincide with Christmas equates to government support of the belief system underlying the holiday. Again, without speaking to the likelihood of it happening, if the Federal government were to recognize some of the other holidays i mentioned, i don't see where that would be an &quot;endorsement of religion&quot; by the government either.

The primary reason the Federal government declares holidays, is to recognize it as a day of importance to a numerically large percentage of its citizens. The reason why Christmas (and some Jewish high holidays as well) have been recognized, and days from other major faiths have not up to now, IMHO reflects the reality of the population.

Hindus, Muslims, Buddhists, etc. have historically had very low representation among the U.S. citizenry. That might no longer be the case. I think that enough interest were expressed by members of those groups, in favor of establishment of a holiday coinciding with their faith, i think that it would be honestly considered by the Congress.

Again, i think a more affirmative and inclusive position (asking for a Federal holiday to be established to recognize a day important to you) would gain you more support than taking the opposite tack (requesting the de-establishment of a currently recognized holiday). Just my $.02

 

[Methos1995]

EmperorNero said:


<< in fact, I love it. I think that's what I'm gonna do. thanks methos >>


You're welcome.

Glenn1, it seems that niether of us is going to budge from our posistions, so let's just agree to disagree🙂 as I really won't have much time to continue the debate now that the weekend is at a close. But it was refreshing to have an actual intelectually stimulating conversation with someone on such a controversial topic (well, except for the whole &quot;silly&quot; thing).

PS - EmperorNero, be sure to tell us how it went😉

 

[MissingLinc]

I am getting tired of this selfish generation of whiners who think they they have a right spoil everyone else's lives. Christmas celebration is harmless to ANYONE'S life, spiritual or otherwise. If you don't like it, don't pay attention to it. How about if I decided I am offended by seeing someone in orange religious robes, or someone with a little dot painted on their forehead, or someone with a little hat on their head, or someone telling me they cannot eat meat on Fridays? So what!? That would be my problem if I actually got hung up on that. What if Christian groups decided that young teen girls running around wearing tight/revealing clothing (which seems very prevalent to me) is too sexually offensive? No group should be forcing its principles on anyone else. This Hindu has either ignorantly misinterpreted the U.S. Constitution (because he buys all of the emotional Liberal B.S. the media likes to spread around) or he is another selfish @$$hole forcing his personal agenda on everyone else.

I think the same of anyone else trying to MANIPULATE and TWIST the U.S. Constitution to their own aims... it is for everybody. You do not have a right to TV, a car, to the internet, a Sony PS2, to take away law-abiding citizen's firearms, make other people practice their religion in dark rooms behind closed doors, etc. (I could go on and on).

It is not like Americans are not aware of other religions. We are a big salad bowl and we are running around saying &quot;Happy Holidays&quot; ...what more do you want? I invite anyone who does not want to accept the WHOLE U.S. Constitution in its entirety for what it was intended for, to leave the USA and see some of the other places in the world and see how damn fat and prosperous this country is... maybe they will find a better appreciation for our great Freedom. Not to mention if they had to serve their country in some capacity (I am not mandating military service) before being allowed to become &quot;full citizens&quot; and be allowed to vote or run for office...

But then you have the right to express any opinion you want, just as I have, and I am proud to defend that right! 🙂

 

[EmperorNero]

for all of you saying I'm a whiner, keep in mind that I DO celebrate x-mas and I would be neutral in this christmas argument because 1) I like x-mas and wouldn't like to see it banned but 2) I still do believe christmas is a christian holiday and it's unfair for other religions since their holidays are barely acknowledged by the govt...so those two things cancel out and I would take a neutran stance.. but the reason it seemed like I was so strong on banning christmas was because I had to be adament on arguing pro for banning christmas so I can get arguments out of you guys.

and bober, benchiu, the guy who just posted the reply above this one (I didnt' even bother to remember his name :Q) and anyone else who called the hindu a whiner, just remember that thomas paine, thomas jefferson, patrick henry, etc were all considered whiners by the british but they are regarded very highly by most of us. the common link? they all (the hindu included) fought for what they believe in despite overwhelming oppositions. that should give you all something to think about...and for the benefit of humankind, try to be more OPEN-MINDED you bigots.

but now that I'm going to go with methos' suggestion, so I won't have to argue any further.




EDIT: when I said &quot;the guy above me,&quot; I meant MissingLinc, but red dawn beat me and posted before I did.

red dawn, another good point. I hate it when you do that...damn you! 🙂

 

[MissingLinc]

...and for the benefit of humankind, try to be more OPEN-MINDED you bigots.

Please read my post in its entirety. I am hardly a BIGOT. I easily accept anyone of any color practicing their religion (AS LONG AS IT BRINGS NO HARM TO OTHER PEOPLE). I cannot accept someone trying to shut down other people's practices. That is what the Constitution protects against. Whether the U.S. government recognizes Christmas as a Christian holiday is a moot point as EVERYONE, regardless of religious preference, in the employ of the U.S. government is given a day off (federal holiday) unless they are fighting a war somewhere.

What if a real bigot were to come along and object to the U.S. Govt observing Martin Luther King Day as a federal holiday? Your logic sounds to me as if because a few people object to the holiday it should be canceled. You can only have so many national holidays before no work will get done, so that makes it pretty hard to start bowing down to every minor group or person who wants a holiday for this and that. When there are enough Hindus in America to get Christmas turned over by a majority vote, then I suppose it will happen. Until then, accept what you have and practice (or not practice) your religion any way you see fit (as long as it brings no harm to others). That is your choice.

I still do believe christmas is a christian holiday and it's unfair for other religions since their holidays are barely acknowledged by the govt

Life is unfair... deal with it. Bill Gates was right about the current generation growing up in an unrealistic feel-good society educating kids to believe they have a right to everything they want.

and anyone else who called the hindu a whiner, just remember that thomas paine, thomas jefferson, patrick henry, etc were all considered whiners by the british but they are regarded very highly by most of us. the common link? they all (the hindu included) fought for what they believe in despite overwhelming oppositions. that should give you all something to think about...

IMO, you fail to tell the rest of the story. Thomas Paine, Thomas Jefferson, Patrick Henry, etc, had something the Hindu does not: a lot of like-minded people on their side and a more realistic opportunity to do something about it.

As the saying goes, you attract more flies with honey than vinegar. If the Hindu wants to attract people to his religion, he should spend more time helping others in the name of his religion than trying to hinder other's ability to practice their own, or even to take a break and have some time with their family. Filing lawsuits seems almost hypocritical to me given the way most religions preach kindness to others and all of the other 'humane' stuff.