Should Christmas still be a national holiday?

[EmperorNero]

A Hindu guy around here tried to ban Christmas as a national holiday because he says he feels ostracized whenever the government promote Christmas (e.g. via public displays wishing people a merry Christmas, advertisements, etc). For the second year in a row, he fought through the courts and his case was just turned down again.

I just asked this guy at my school what does he think of Christmas being banned. His response was, "I don't give a flying fvck! I'll celebrate it anyway."


I think Christmas should be banned because it does make an outcast of a lot of people of other religious beliefs and it seems like the U.S. government is promoting Christianity when this country was founded on religious freedom (among other things). I personally celebrate X-mas myself and I don't mind if X-mas is banned because I celebrate it on a personal level. And like the guy who I quoted above said, of course you can still practice this tradition in the private of your own homes. This isn't an attack on Christianity, but a defense for non-Christians.

EDIT: Edited title for euphemism.

 

[ArkAoss]

hmm no coment here either, you looking for flames, n0 flames here
soww vif ag nez iww a mizo, a qefg mowovzigo gsig jitif zagkiw ifx lix.....

 

[EmperorNero]

Actually, I'm looking more for good arguments. I'll explain why later.

 

[unxpurg8d]

Hmmm...so you're for banning public displays of a religious nature? What next? Public displays related to ethnicity? I think your statement about the country being formed on the basis of "religious freedom" kinda counters your statement that Christmas should be banned. Are you also going to ban Kwanzaa,Hanukkah, etc?





Sigh.

 

[bcterps]

Well might makes right so deal with it. You aint gonna please all of the people all of the time, so why bother? Personally its a freakin load of crap that someone wants to ban Christmas, I'd just laugh in their faces and tell them to get over it. If you cant be tolerant about it, move to a different country or something.

--Ben

 

[Windogg]

Holidays have become so commericalized it doesn't make a difference anymore. I'm not Christian but I'll I sure as hell am not going to turn down paid timeoff and lots of parties.

Windogg

 

[Dulanic]

You have to remeber history and how and why the US was originally founded. Religion and government don't need to be seperate, if it wasn't for religion this country most likely wouldn't have been founded the way it was and we might be a totally different country.

 

[EmperorNero]

<< Public displays related to ethnicity? I think your statement about the country being formed on the basis of &quot;religious freedom&quot; kinda counters your statement that Christmas should be banned. >>



Christmas is a national holiday. Arguments can be made that the U.S. is supporting Christianity so thus, that is why it's a violation of religious freedom. I don't see how it's going to stop you from celebrating it at home.

BTW, is Kwanzaa and Hanukkah or any other specific religious holidays a national US holiday? (this is a real question, not one of those questions to make a point).




<< Well might makes right so deal with it. You aint gonna please all of the people all of the time, so why bother? Personally its a freakin load of crap that someone wants to ban Christmas, I'd just laugh in their faces and tell them to get over it. If you cant be tolerant about it, move to a different country or something. >>



That is pathetic. This is a sign of a Bible thumper who cannot argue logically. Simply telling people &quot;deal with it&quot; doesn't really cut it:

&quot;Hi, I'm your senator. Thank you for voting me into office. And while I'm living off you tax dollars, I don't feel like helping you guys live through the Great Depression. Don't like it? Move to another country.&quot;

That's now how improvements are made in this country.

 

[EmperorNero]

Windogg and dulanic made good points. Come on, people, be passionate and give me your arguments.

 

[BoberFett]

Actually, Christmas was a pagan holiday that Christians hijacked, wasn't it?

 

[Dedpuhl]

am not going to turn down paid timeoff and lots of parties

Me either.


I do, however, wonder why Christmas is recognized as a National Holiday. Within the next 100 years churches will be empty, and this concept of God in the U.S. will be swept under the carpet. It is already happening in Europe....

 

[Optimus]

Ha! How do you BAN Christmas? Prohibit displays? Forbit Advertisers to use it in ads?

Not going to happen.

And how does taking away a free day(s) off &quot;protect&quot; other cultures or faiths? No one is forced to do anything at all, except have a day or two off work.


Tell you what, why not try to ban religious holidays in the Middle East, India, etc... otherwise this is purely hypocritical. And let me know how things go trying to convince those countries to give up thier religios holidays!

Christmas has become both cultural (the tree, family, presents, Santa) and Religious (Nativity scenes, some carols, church...). You can't ban the trees and presents and such, so it comes down to banning the religious symbolism.
Religious persecution doesn't fly in North America - even against Christians, sorry.

Now, to balance, I can see some people objecting to tax money paying for any religious symbolism - like a Nativity scene at city hall. But I don't think that happens anymore, so there goes that.

 

[Optimus]

<< Within the next 100 years churches will be empty, and this concept of God in the U.S. will be swept under the carpet. >>



You mean you hope all faiths and beliefs (Hinduism, Mohammedism, etc) will disappear, or just Christianity? Do you despise all forms of worship or just the one?

 

[EmperorNero]

<< Ha! How do you BAN Christmas? Prohibit displays? Forbit Advertisers to use it in ads?

Not going to happen. >>



Actually, if X-mas is banned, the U.S. would just stop recognizing it as a national holiday. Companies can still advertise all they want, traditional Christian families can still practice it, giving gifts shall still live on, churches can still have midnight masses, etc.



<< Tell you what, why not try to ban religious holidays in the Middle East, India, etc... otherwise this is purely hypocritical. And let me know how things go trying to convince those countries to give up thier religios holidays! >>



That is on the same level as benchiu. Those other countries do not live on the promise of religious freedom. America does; promoting Christianity is contradictory to that.



<< Religious persecution doesn't fly in North America - even against Christians, sorry. >>



And how is this persecuting Christians? Do you mean it's a persecution because banning Christmas as a national holiday would create a more level playing field for other religions?

For God's sake people, THINK and give me good, valid refutes.

 

[bcterps]

Ok, you want a point, if you're gonna ban Christmas cause it makes you feel left out, do you want to ban every single holiday cause you dont agree with what they represent?

I want to ban New Years because I follow the Lunar calendar and it makes me feel left out.

I want to ban the 4th of July cause I think the British were right and we should be still be under their rule.

I want to ban Memorial Day cause I dont agree that we should glorify those that died in battle defending this country.

I want to ban Martin Luther King's birthday cause I'm a racist.

The government promotes a lot of stuff that you probably dont like. How does it make an outcast of people who dont celebrate it? Are they made fun of? Ridiculed in front of their peers? Actually I have a good idea, why dont you lead a boycott of every company that has a Merry Christmas sign or advertisement, that'll send the message.

--Ben

 

[Dedpuhl]

You mean you hope all faiths and beliefs (Hinduism, Mohammedism, etc) will disappear, or just Christianity? Do you despise all forms of worship or just the one?

I don't like any religion that tells me if I don't buy the story, then I am a sinner and will go to hell. Christianity is being abandoned by the Europeans.

 

[unxpurg8d]

I think the problem is that you're using the word &quot;ban&quot;. As in making Christmas illegal. If you mean just taking away the legal holiday, then fine, I'm of the opinion that religious holidays shouldn't be federally mandated anyway. If THAT is what you meant, then you need to clarify. If you plan on arguing, make sure you start off by saying exactly what you mean - otherwise everyone finds out later that they've been saying the same thing differently, and you don't get your homework done for you.

 

[EmperorNero]

<< Ok, you want a point, if you're gonna ban Christmas cause it makes you feel left out, do you want to ban every single holiday cause you dont agree with what they represent? >>



If you've read my post more carefully, I've specified that I do celebrate christmas myself. But it's fairer for people of OTHER religious beliefs if the U.S. would stop promoting Christianity. That is my main point, not how people merely feel left out. Attack the former point, not the latter.

 

[Optimus]

<< Actually, if X-mas is banned, the U.S. would just stop recognizing it as a national holiday. Companies can still advertise all they want. >>



Which parts are you proposing be banned? Just that it not be recognized? No day off? That government don't say the word &quot;Christmas&quot;? We don't say &quot;Christmas&quot; in school? No tax dollars for Christmas Trees (a non-religious symbol)?




<< That is on the same level as benchiu. Those other countries do not live on the promise of religious freedom. America does; promoting Christianity is contradictory to that. >>



A side note: I'm not a bible thumper - labeling someone is the first step to reducing an argument to a fight, so lets not start that, OK? (as thats what you called benchui, I'm just asking we not go there here)

Again, this relies completely on what I asked above on exactly what you want banned.

If &quot;promoting Christianity&quot; here is wrong, then isn't promoting other religions in those countries wrong too? Saying that they don't base themselves on religious freedom is exactly the &quot;get over it. If you cant be tolerant about it, move to a different country or something&quot; part of benchui's post you objected to.




<< And how is this persecuting Christians? Do you mean it's a persecution because banning Christmas as a national holiday would create a more level playing field for other religions? >>



Banning religious symbolism would be persecution - to any religion. Asking that it not be payed for by tax money isn't, as I stated.

 

[Optimus]

<< I don't like any religion that tells me if I don't buy the story, then I am a sinner and will go to hell. >>



Well, I can tell you pretty much for sure that you have just ruled out every major religion on earth. Its up to you to decide for yourself what to believe... Personally, if I believe everyone, I'm going straight to hell 50 times over. Thing is, I don't beleive them... difference is I don't hate thier opinions or the expression of them.




<< Christianity is being abandoned by the Europeans. >>



And...? So is having children. So are certain foods. So are many makes of cars. Why does that matter?

 

[Dameon]

Fine NEro. The problem is you don't want religious freedom, you want to be FREE FROM RELIGION.
There is a distinct difference. The original founders came here for the same reason everyone else did, a better life. To me and alot of other people, that's having a christmas tree, songs in my school choir that YES do have JESUS and CHRIST and GOD in the lyrics. I am so sick and tired of little whiny pests like yourself pushing YOUR freedom FROM religion onto everyone else.

We have moved from TOLERATION (freedom OF religion) of other religions to AVOIDING anything that might in any way, shape, or form push any religion (freedom FROM religion). Egads people.... this country went to hell when it made that turn. Where does it end in the ban of Christmas? If a choir goes to the White House to sing for the President, are they not allowed to sing any songs containing Jesus, Domine Jesu e Christe, Almighty, Father, or anything of that nature? You my friend have crossed the line. We are founded on TOLERANCE, not the freedom from being annoyed.

In short, as was said before, DEAL WITH IT.

 

[EmperorNero]

&quot;I think the problem is that you're using the word &quot;ban&quot;.

Thanks for the tip.

If you mean just taking away the legal holiday, then fine, I'm of the opinion that religious holidays shouldn't be federally mandated anyway. If THAT is what you meant, then you need to clarify.&quot;

Exactly what I meant.

&quot;..and you don't get your homework done for you.&quot;

You've almost guessed my true intentions. I have to make a legistlative bill for JSA, a national political club for high school students. See this thread for more info.

So far, my best suggestion for a bill is excluding Christmas as a national holiday. And I came to the OT board so I can get a taste of the different opinions.

To be perfectly honest, I don't really mind either way if Christmas gets banned as a national holiday or not because I am strong-minded enough to still celebrate my traditions without the strong arm support of the government. But in the original thread, I had to keep a strong stance because I want to get people riled up so hopefully they would reply with their argument..but apparently, a lot of people got pretty pissed.

Don't take this thread to heart, I just want different arguments and perspectives on this issue. So I know what I'll come against when I stand up to debate my bill.

 

[Dedpuhl]

I can tell you pretty much for sure that you have just ruled out every major religion on earth

Exactly


And...? So is having children. So are certain foods. So are many makes of cars. Why does that matter?

It matters because this is the same area where Christianity was bleeted non-stop for hundreds of years. The Post-Christianic era of Europe is focusing more on life itself than the belief in the boogey man. This is straying from the topic at hand....



back to the discussion:

It sends mixed signals when Christianity is fully endorsed by our gov't and other religions are put on the back burner. If we have time off for Christmas, we should also have time off for EVERY religious function that is on the same sacred level as Christmas...

 

[SSP]

EmperorNero, I'm still waiting for you to comment on what benchiu said. If you want to &quot;ban&quot; Christmas, then we can ban any holiday we want to.

BTW, I'm not American, but I have a feeling a clown here in Canada will do the same if US does ban Christmas. Also you shouldn't use the word &quot;ban&quot;.

EDIT - Ehh... i see several people already replied before me... Damn I'm slow.

 

[Optimus]

Nero - well it certainly is an interesting subject, and one that will get you a lot of heated debate.

At least here it will - schools kids tend to be more apathetic, I think. Here many of us are tired of defending what we believe in constantly. If you notice, I never post religion threads, never bring it into non-religion threads, etc. I don't ram what I believe down people's throats, I'm not at your door at suppertime trying to convert anyone.

BUT

I will defend my beliefs to the constant threads from people who claim to hate being preached at and hate the &quot;Rexbo&quot; people of the world, yet constantly post threads bashing religion (always christianity - bashing other religions is a no-no even for them) or asking people to rate god. (yes - thats at you mr. &quot;I'm not trying to stir up anything&quot; dedpuhl)

(BTW, this isn't aimed directly at you, Nero, but I want to mention it)

To sum up - if you are not a religious person, you don't want to hear about it. Fine, I'm totally cool with that, I've never posted a religion thread or brought it up. But if you don't want to hear about it, if you don't like being &quot;preached at&quot;, and if it pisses you off... don't freaking bring it up and attack it, or some of us WILL defend it.