Should burning or desecration of the US flag be illegal?

[AbAbber2k]

Originally posted by: Kaervak
I don't like burning of the flag, but I will never support a movement to make it illegal.

Couldn't have said it better.

 

[Mean MrMustard]

Originally posted by: destrekor
yes it should be illegal, it shows lack of respect for the country as an entity, and a lack of respect for those who fought for it.

Yes! And that is why it should be LEGAL!

 

[Mean MrMustard]

destrekor,

Why don't you look up some other countries that have banned desecrating the flag? You'll love it.






EDIT: damn missing word

 

[DivideBYZero]

Originally posted by: destrekor

Originally posted by: spaceghost21

Originally posted by: destrekor
yes it should be illegal, it shows lack of respect for the country as an entity, and a lack of respect for those who fought for it.

THOSE PEOPLE FVCKING DIED SO PEOPLE COULD LIVE IN OUR COUNTRY AND BE FREE! INCLUDING TO BURN THE FLAG IF THEY FVCKING PLEASED!

so... we should let people destroy the Status of Libery if they ever so pleased, and not be punished?
there is a fine line between free speech and treachory against the state. symbols are much more than symbols. symbolism is powerful and destroying a symbol is equal to destroying the meaning of a symbol.
people believe in different methods of free speech. i happen to not believe that burning a flag is free speech, and rather is treachory. destroying the symbols that mean what our country stands for is every right an attack on what our country stands for.

but i'll rephrase my believe: i don't necessarily believe it should be against the law, because many people view free speech differently and that law would could an uproar.. but it is highly offendable and people shouldn't be so lax on the idea of flag burning.

but please, respond to the idea of destroying the statue of liberty.

Rule Six of Debating on the internet applies here:

# Hallucinate entirely different points. For example, if someone says apples grow on trees, accuse him of saying snakes have arms and then point out how stupid that is.

 

[Suspicious-Teach8788]

Originally posted by: flashbacck

Originally posted by: destrekor
yes it should be illegal, it shows lack of respect for the country as an entity, and a lack of respect for those who fought for it.

yea, and those people are idiots. But it still doesn't mean it should be illegal. If letting the KKK march the streets is considered free speech, then so should burning the flag.

Who cares. You can call people dumb@$$es all you want too right? Disrespectful is one thing, and let them sink that low.

Burning flag costs money. Let people buy their flags and burn them. What a waste. Every penny counts when I want a Conroe E6600.

 

[destrekor]

Originally posted by: Gooberlx2

Originally posted by: destrekor
yes it should be illegal, it shows lack of respect for the country as an entity, and a lack of respect for those who fought for it.

And it would be disrespectful to those who fought and died for our freedoms, to selectively take them away.

answer my question posed earlier then:
should we not punish someone who destroys the statue of libery then... it could be classified as free speech. (keep in mind, this individual would be american. a terrorist would still be punished, since they cannot have our freedoms since they are not citizens).

but again, they fought for freedoms, but they also fought for nationalism and patriotism. a few freedoms need to be cleaned up, as the freedoms provided currently give room for the problems we face as a country, as I mentioned above, for example, high crime rate. the lack of punishment is also to blame. we are not as enforcing of a country as other countries are of their policies, we are much to lax on those that break the laws. i vote for more life sentences and more death penalties, and not just for murder. we need to set an example if we expect crime rates to go down. drunk driving deaths need especially be punished by death, but of course depending on situation, there are a few circumstances.

 

[Pepsei]

answer my question posed earlier then:
should we not punish someone who destroys the statue of libery then... it could be classified as free speech. (keep in mind, this individual would be american. a terrorist would still be punished, since they cannot have our freedoms since they are not citizens).

sure, if they built their own statue of libery in their backyard, they have the freedome to destory it.

the real one, well, destruction of public property is a crime already.

 

[sniperruff]

Originally posted by: destrekor

Originally posted by: Gooberlx2

Originally posted by: destrekor
yes it should be illegal, it shows lack of respect for the country as an entity, and a lack of respect for those who fought for it.

And it would be disrespectful to those who fought and died for our freedoms, to selectively take them away.

answer my question posed earlier then:
should we not punish someone who destroys the statue of libery then... it could be classified as free speech. (keep in mind, this individual would be american. a terrorist would still be punished, since they cannot have our freedoms since they are not citizens).

but again, they fought for freedoms, but they also fought for nationalism and patriotism. a few freedoms need to be cleaned up, as the freedoms provided currently give room for the problems we face as a country, as I mentioned above, for example, high crime rate. the lack of punishment is also to blame. we are not as enforcing of a country as other countries are of their policies, we are much to lax on those that break the laws. i vote for more life sentences and more death penalties, and not just for murder. we need to set an example if we expect crime rates to go down. drunk driving deaths need especially be punished by death, but of course depending on situation, there are a few circumstances.

1) the statue is not your property. it's a crime to deface it. if you burn a flag that's not yours, it'd be a crime. if it is your flag, then i think you can do whatever the hell you want with it.

2) and how does flag burning lead to the other stuff? you're nuts.

 

[destrekor]

Originally posted by: DivideBYZero

Originally posted by: destrekor

Originally posted by: spaceghost21

Originally posted by: destrekor
yes it should be illegal, it shows lack of respect for the country as an entity, and a lack of respect for those who fought for it.

THOSE PEOPLE FVCKING DIED SO PEOPLE COULD LIVE IN OUR COUNTRY AND BE FREE! INCLUDING TO BURN THE FLAG IF THEY FVCKING PLEASED!

so... we should let people destroy the Status of Libery if they ever so pleased, and not be punished?
there is a fine line between free speech and treachory against the state. symbols are much more than symbols. symbolism is powerful and destroying a symbol is equal to destroying the meaning of a symbol.
people believe in different methods of free speech. i happen to not believe that burning a flag is free speech, and rather is treachory. destroying the symbols that mean what our country stands for is every right an attack on what our country stands for.

but i'll rephrase my believe: i don't necessarily believe it should be against the law, because many people view free speech differently and that law would could an uproar.. but it is highly offendable and people shouldn't be so lax on the idea of flag burning.

but please, respond to the idea of destroying the statue of liberty.

Rule Six of Debating on the internet applies here:

# Hallucinate entirely different points. For example, if someone says apples grow on trees, accuse him of saying snakes have arms and then point out how stupid that is.

how is it a different point? he is saying that symbols are meaningless. i read that rather clearly. so if burning the flag, which is merely a symbol of freedom, is permitted, why not destroying the statue of liberty. i mean, it is only a symbol, am I right?
it is perfectly okay to bring that point to the table, to show that symbols are much more powerful than he would like to imagine. if anyone said that someone who destroyed the statue of liberty under ideals of free speech, should not be punished... every citizen of this great nation should be shocked, appalled, and offended in every way possible.
so why do they not feel the same way for the flag? is it merely because there are multiple flags, and not multiple statue of liberty's? hmm, seems an odd situation. because of the number of available units of a specific symbol, that symbol's importance is diminished?
maybe, in that case, we should ban the available of the flag to merely one flying overhead the whitehouse, and have a secondary version that others could buy? would that solve the problem of the flag not being an important symbol to the people of this country?

Originally posted by: sniperruff

Originally posted by: destrekor

Originally posted by: Gooberlx2

Originally posted by: destrekor
yes it should be illegal, it shows lack of respect for the country as an entity, and a lack of respect for those who fought for it.

And it would be disrespectful to those who fought and died for our freedoms, to selectively take them away.

answer my question posed earlier then:
should we not punish someone who destroys the statue of libery then... it could be classified as free speech. (keep in mind, this individual would be american. a terrorist would still be punished, since they cannot have our freedoms since they are not citizens).

but again, they fought for freedoms, but they also fought for nationalism and patriotism. a few freedoms need to be cleaned up, as the freedoms provided currently give room for the problems we face as a country, as I mentioned above, for example, high crime rate. the lack of punishment is also to blame. we are not as enforcing of a country as other countries are of their policies, we are much to lax on those that break the laws. i vote for more life sentences and more death penalties, and not just for murder. we need to set an example if we expect crime rates to go down. drunk driving deaths need especially be punished by death, but of course depending on situation, there are a few circumstances.

1) the statue is not your property. it's a crime to deface it. if you burn a flag that's not yours, it'd be a crime. if it is your flag, then i think you can do whatever the hell you want with it.

2) and how does flag burning lead to the other stuff? you're nuts.

wasn't really relating flag burning and crimes, merely making a statement of my beliefs.
public property sure... but I am ignoring that and bringing the symolism itself to the forefront.

 

[alkemyst]

depends on the burning, if treason then illegal.

We are a free country, but if you disagree with it; then it's not for you.

It's a complicated statement though, so it is not suited to a one-way forum.

 

[Gooberlx2]

Originally posted by: destrekor

Originally posted by: Gooberlx2

Originally posted by: destrekor
yes it should be illegal, it shows lack of respect for the country as an entity, and a lack of respect for those who fought for it.

And it would be disrespectful to those who fought and died for our freedoms, to selectively take them away.

answer my question posed earlier then:
should we not punish someone who destroys the statue of libery then... it could be classified as free speech. (keep in mind, this individual would be american. a terrorist would still be punished, since they cannot have our freedoms since they are not citizens).

but again, they fought for freedoms, but they also fought for nationalism and patriotism. a few freedoms need to be cleaned up, as the freedoms provided currently give room for the problems we face as a country, as I mentioned above, for example, high crime rate. the lack of punishment is also to blame. we are not as enforcing of a country as other countries are of their policies, we are much to lax on those that break the laws. i vote for more life sentences and more death penalties, and not just for murder. we need to set an example if we expect crime rates to go down. drunk driving deaths need especially be punished by death, but of course depending on situation, there are a few circumstances.

What a ludicrous analogy. The Statue of Liberty is property owned by the city of New York (AFAIK). Of course that's a problem and illegal....to blow up a building/landmark/monument. :roll:

To correct your analogy. If someone buys a toy model of the Statue of Liberty, and crushes it trying to make a statement, they might be an ass in my eyes, but have certainly done nothing illegal.

You need to watch V for Vendetta. Symbols are just that. Symbols. Graphic representations of ideals. They serve to motivate or persuade people, but they're not some entrenched property in our lives. By this I mean that someone destroying a symbol of our freedom does not rob you of your life, liberty or happiness. But for you to make illegal their ability to do so, robs them of one of the most important liberties we have: Freedom of Speech (via expression in this case).

Regardless of how our policies are different from other countries concerning law enforcement and crime rates, a flag won't change the ideals of our policies. You do via the politicians you vote for. So you want it to be illegal? Go ahead express your freedom of speech and campaign for a candidate that supports your point of view. I will simply express my freedom to ignore you.

 

[doze]

Flag should only be burnt if it has been damaged, but only with a proper ceremony.

 

[destrekor]

Originally posted by: Gooberlx2

Originally posted by: destrekor

Originally posted by: Gooberlx2

Originally posted by: destrekor
yes it should be illegal, it shows lack of respect for the country as an entity, and a lack of respect for those who fought for it.

And it would be disrespectful to those who fought and died for our freedoms, to selectively take them away.

answer my question posed earlier then:
should we not punish someone who destroys the statue of libery then... it could be classified as free speech. (keep in mind, this individual would be american. a terrorist would still be punished, since they cannot have our freedoms since they are not citizens).

but again, they fought for freedoms, but they also fought for nationalism and patriotism. a few freedoms need to be cleaned up, as the freedoms provided currently give room for the problems we face as a country, as I mentioned above, for example, high crime rate. the lack of punishment is also to blame. we are not as enforcing of a country as other countries are of their policies, we are much to lax on those that break the laws. i vote for more life sentences and more death penalties, and not just for murder. we need to set an example if we expect crime rates to go down. drunk driving deaths need especially be punished by death, but of course depending on situation, there are a few circumstances.

What a ludicrous analogy. The Statue of Liberty is property owned by the city of New York (AFAIK). Of course that's a problem and illegal....to blow up a building/landmark/monument. :roll:

To correct your analogy. If someone buys a toy model of the Statue of Liberty, and crushes it trying to make a statement, they might be an ass in my eyes, but have certainly done nothing illegal.

You need to watch V for Vendetta. Symbols are just that. Symbols. Graphic representations of ideals. They serve to motivate or persuade people, but they're not some entrenched property in our lives. By this I mean that someone destroying a symbol of our freedom does not rob you of your life, liberty or happiness. But for you to make illegal their ability to do so, robs them of one of the most important liberties we have: Freedom of Speech (via expression in this case).

Regardless of how our policies are different from other countries concerning law enforcement and crime rates, a flag won't change the ideals of our policies. You do via the politicians you vote for. So you want it to be illegal? Go ahead express your freedom of speech and campaign for a candidate that supports your point of view. I will simply express my freedom to ignore you.

you've misunderstood the meaning of that movie, iirc. they may not change your life, but an attack on a symbol is supposed to symbolically drive a steak through your heart, meant to hit deep down in you.
i need to watch it again and pay more attention to the symbolism views...
but again, the public property is not what I am thinking about.
so take away the punishment, and public property or not, would you not feel emotion when someone defaced the statue of liberty, or even destroyed it?
a flag should have equal meaning in your heart and to the country.

 

[Nik]

It pisses me off like few other things can, but it doesn't infringe on anyone else's rights. Making it illegal would be infringing on the rights of the person who wishes to burn the flag. In order to protect my own right to free speech, I must also protect the rights of others, even if their opinions and forms of expression don't agree with mine.

 

[GagHalfrunt]

Nope, the right to do it is far more important than the piece of cloth.


The true irony is that old and worn out flags are supposed to be burned, that's the recommended way to destroy them.

 

[Nik]

Originally posted by: GagHalfrunt
Nope, the right to do it is far more important than the piece of cloth.


The true irony is that old and worn out flags are supposed to be burned, that's the recommended way to destroy them.

and if they're flown at night without proper lighting
and if they ever touch the ground
and if they're ever torn or otherwise damaged
etc

There's lots of cool stuff about the flag in the Flag Code.

 

[destrekor]

Originally posted by: GagHalfrunt
Nope, the right to do it is far more important than the piece of cloth.


The true irony is that old and worn out flags are supposed to be burned, that's the recommended way to destroy them.

ceremony versus burning in detest are two different things entirely. fire is the only common thread between them.

 

[Howard]

The flag should be burned when burning the flag is no longer allowed. I hope I didn't butcher that too much.

 

[Xyclone]

Originally posted by: effowe
No it shouldn't, people should be allowed to express themselves how they wish as long as it doesn't hurt others. This is a free country after all.

Agreed.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: destrekor
yes it should be illegal, it shows lack of respect for the country as an entity, and a lack of respect for those who fought for it.

Americans don't show any respect for the Country so why should it be made illegal?

It won't be around for much longer anyway/.

 

[DurocShark]

I'd gladly kick the a$$ of anybody who does it. It's insulting.

But I'd gladly take the butthole's back against the government taking away his freedom to do so.

 

[GagHalfrunt]

Originally posted by: destrekor

Originally posted by: GagHalfrunt
Nope, the right to do it is far more important than the piece of cloth.


The true irony is that old and worn out flags are supposed to be burned, that's the recommended way to destroy them.

ceremony versus burning in detest are two different things entirely. fire is the only common thread between them.

But the ceremony is pure crap. So, a bunch of guys sat around a few hundred years ago and came up with some empty ritual over a few beers. What does that prove? What if they had had one or two more beers and got so drunk they suggested that before raising a flag you need to hop on one leg while reciting the entire Declaration of Independence backward? Would you do it? Would that make flying the flag somehow more important? Of course not, it's mindless repitition followed by mindless people because they're too lazy to think for themself. Flag code? Holy cow, if there is not a more worthless set of rituals found outside of a religion.

The point of living in a free country is that you're free to hate it, you're free to hate its symbology and you're free to say so however you want, whenever you want as loudly as you want. The moment you take away the freedom to burn the flag the flag itself becomes NOTHING.

 

[destrekor]

Originally posted by: Howard
The flag should be burned when burning the flag is no longer allowed. I hope I didn't butcher that too much.

yea, thats perfectly understandable (as in, thats easy to read)... but I still view that as disgusting. and disenheartening.

 

[Dumac]

No. Never.

Wasn't there a famous quote that could easily be applied to this? Something like...

A true supporter of freedom stands behind the right for someone to express themselves freely, even if they do not agree with that expression.

Something like that

 

[Gooberlx2]

Originally posted by: destrekor
you've misunderstood the meaning of that movie, iirc. they may not change your life, but an attack on a symbol is supposed to symbolically drive a steak through your heart, meant to hit deep down in you.
i need to watch it again and pay more attention to the symbolism views...
but again, the public property is not what I am thinking about.
so take away the punishment, and public property or not, would you not feel emotion when someone defaced the statue of liberty, or even destroyed it?
a flag should have equal meaning in your heart and to the country.

They use symbolism in the movie to show how it can change over time. He blew up Parlaiment, because it no longer worked. The colors and flags of the regime suggested safe haven from the famine going on, but mutated into corruption and oppression. V chose the destruction of old democratic symbols to motivate people into critical and skeptical thinking. That and the fact that an oppresive regime would try to pervert their meaning (as institutions of democracy and policy making) is offensive to those who would have actual freedom rather than the facade of it.

It's a given that V is a terrorist. It's admitted in the story. But in your case, someone destroying the emotional meaning of symbol (a flag) is not terrorism. It's activism. You may not agree, but understand that they don't agree with what the symbol means. Therefore, in this country, they're allowed to express their disagreement.

Flag burning happened during Vietnam. It wasn't always popular, but the activists of the time were trying to make a statement. That statement was that the essence and benevolent ideals for what that flag symbolized were now tainted by a misguided government. If the flag is a symbol of the country and its ideals, and you no longer love the policies of that country or its perceived ideals, then you destroy things that are symbolic of that country and its ideals. And you do this through the use of what you believe the original and pure ideals were...freedom of speech....in this case.

Yes, someone burning a US flag or stomping a toy Statue of Liberty or Beheading a plastic Bald Eagle is offensive to me. It stirs my emotions. But I understand that they're trying to make a point (or just express dissatisfaction with our government and country). No matter how stupid their reasoning may be, it is their right.