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Shooting at art festival in Texas

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rudeguy said:
Got some evidence of that?
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Look around you. People may say they're Christians, don't make it so.

Same answer for you, Earl.

There are some hateful people that call themselves Christians, see it everyday.

I don't particularly care for the numbers associated with who calls themselves, or identifies them self as Christian, it's just words. If people were followers of Christ, you wouldn't end up with politically motivated art shows designed to provoke more anger and hate from people.
 
ch33zw1z said:
Look around you. People may say they're Christians, don't make it so.

Same answer for you, Earl.

There are some hateful people that call themselves Christians, see it everyday.

I don't particularly care for the numbers associated with who calls themselves, or identifies them self as Christian, it's just words. If people were followers of Christ, you wouldn't end up with politically motivated art shows designed to provoke more anger and hate from people.
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The US right now is growing more religious. Where are you drawing your line at?
 
Victorian Gray said:
What? Telling the world that 'free expression' is sacrosanct?

Except for Muslims...
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Um, Muslims are perfectly free to condemn cartoons of Muhammad, they just aren't free to shoot the people drawing them. If they wish to purchase cartoons of Muhammad and burn them or trample them like you guys commonly do our flag, that too would be free speech.

Orignal Earl said:
Oh and I have posted my real name here, and dozens of pics of me and family.
Then your bud Nebor issued his death threats against us and our families
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Good for you, but no one is accusing you of hiding behind Internet anonymity. You were accusing those of us defending free speech of such behavior.
 
Dallas is overrun by Islam preaching religious zealots in the name of "outreach". They are everywhere, they are in places where other religious organization are not legally allowed. It's done in the name of spreading awareness to reduce hate against Islam but instead its having opposite effect. Its a ticking time bomb, its the beginning, worse is yet to come
 
werepossum said:
Um, Muslims are perfectly free to condemn cartoons of Muhammad, they just aren't free to shoot the people drawing them. If they wish to purchase cartoons of Muhammad and burn them or trample them like you guys commonly do our flag, that too would be free speech.


Good for you, but no one is accusing you of hiding behind Internet anonymity. You were accusing those of us defending free speech of such behavior.
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Yes, those who have to hide and do their offending aren't defending anything
I dunno you Internet only Patriots have some wacky ideals

Posting from forklift back after work
 
Orignal Earl said:
Yes, those who have to hide and do their offending aren't defending anything
I dunno you Internet only Patriots have some wacky ideals

Posting from forklift back after work
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If you feel that believing one should be able to draw any cartoon in America without being murdered for it is a wacky ideal, then I'm assuming that forklift was to move your evening weed to the step-in bong. lol
 
werepossum said:
Um, Muslims are perfectly free to condemn cartoons of Muhammad, they just aren't free to shoot the people drawing them. If they wish to purchase cartoons of Muhammad and burn them or trample them like you guys commonly do our flag, that too would be free speech.
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"you guys"? Don't recall ever having trampled on an American flag so, piss off?

btw, Geller and Wilder have absolutely no respect for the free speech of anyone other than themselves and their supporters. These are people who, for example, wish to ban the Koran. Free speech supporters? Yeah, right.
 
realibrad said:
The US started its society as mainly secular. While the founding fathers believed in a god, they wanted to set up a government that was agnostic. This does not mean that people did not use the government to attack those who mocked god and or religion. But, the original intent was to allow for speaking ill of god. It has sense grown to include much more, and for good reason. It does not matter that a religion says that it cannot be mocked. Free speech is legal, and thus you can insult a religion. Just because the Quran says it cannot be mocked does not mean anything. It may still be offensive, but its legal to offend people.
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I'm already aware that the US shouldn't be considered a Christian country, despite them being the overwhelming majority. But again, I consider most are Christians only by the title, exactly as a huge part of the Muslims community these days.

As for bringing the Quran judgment, it was just a fyi note why it does anger the Islamic community, otherwise it's a meaningless for you of course.

realibrad said:
I think you are again misunderstanding my argument. Its not about whom is smarter. Freedom of speech is better, but its not the only measure of a society. I would argue that most western societies have more good over all compared to most Muslim societies. I would not argue that Muslim societies need to follow everything that western societies follow, because I know there are many flaws in my society.

As for allowing it to exist, yes we would.
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Now I'd completely agree it's better for a generally non-religious nation, however, it's also noted and well addressed that a complete freedom of speech could eventually lead into atheism. That's why religions came to regulate and somehow restrict your thoughts to a degree.

Nevertheless, it's not only religion which determine the freedom scope, there is also the constitution which serve to keep the nation function in addition to protect and serve the governors interests, as is the case in most of the Arabic countries for example.


I disagree that Western societies be considered overall better than Islamic ones.
Trust me in this, but each side have some qualities that the other lacks.
Short examples are such as respect, equality, and everybody minding his own business in the the Western one. While in fact, I found that we're more of a simple people, we trust each other more than you guys do, also solidarity presumably higher in Islamic nations (generally speaking).

As for allowing it to exist, yes we would
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You would, I'm sure of this. Bus as "we" goes, history and present circumstances tells otherwise. Well, that is a long story for another time.

realibrad said:
Freedom of speech is like art, and in many cases the same thing. You alone are not the judge of what is right and wrong. Western society allows for many liberties for the individual to decide what is right for them. So long as your choice does not infringe on others rights, you are generally allowed to do as you wish. I understand that this is not always the case, and I wish it were more often, but it is in this case.
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I prefer you rather replace "Western societies" with American one. As you're already aware about the prohibition of denying or mere questioning the 6-million figure in a lot of Western countries.
And here is a great point that must be emphasized; whenever I open Amazon and see the huge selection of books sold about every single possible topic, even those that talk bad about the US presidents, 9/11, holocaust and other matters, then you guys really have the right to defend your freedoms. Simply it might be not available as such in any other place in the world.

realibrad said:
I understand you have a different view, however, that does not make our views equal. There is nothing inherent to your view that makes it a mere matter of different opinions. What you seem to be arguing for is a society where people are not allowed to choose what is best for themselves. In our society, its supposed to be that a person can decide so long as it does not infringe on others. We may not always live up to our standards, but that is the ultimate goal.
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Of course many wouldn't be able to acknowledge a religions or particularly Islamic view, since he never truly experienced to be religious in the first place. I'd say this is a main source of difference, if you can't acknowledge religions as a serious viewpoint then I'm at a huge disadvantage here.


Anyway, you have affected my mind on some points, although the gap would sure be still there between theory and practice.
 
werepossum said:
Some points. First, that they are the same was my point. Second, there is nothing on Earth that should be above taking a little ribbing without becoming homicidal. If your religion cannot, fix your religion, not the world. (Not yours personally - I'm speaking of those who turn to violence.) Third, the shooters weren't displaying "stupidity and arrogance", but homicidal rage. We're Americans, we celebrate stupidity and arrogance on reality television. It's homicidal rage that gets you DRT.
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As I always say we need to fix the people and make them adapt, not the religion itself.

I bet the shooters were ever a truly religious people, they were just a title with nothing else to do.

Was there anybody behind them goofing up their minds? That is the real question to be answered, in which we don't have an answer.
 
ch33zw1z said:
Not everyone adheres to the Quran, and those that don't aren't required to "follow the rules" set forth by the Quran. Those rules apply to the followers of the Quran, that's it.



another bad example. Free speech supersedes your example because it also applies to civilians. Free speech also supersedes religious opinions.



Irrelevant. You practice your religion your way. If nobody is physically affecting you then leave everyone else alone. If your rights are being violated, then contact the authorities.

If your religion causes you to violate the rights of another, then that religion has no place in USA.



Let's be real then. Religion and it's followers can do what they want, as long as it doesn't involve violating the rights of another.
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Such points should definitely be made very clear to every Muslim living among other communities, no argument here.
However, Muslims should also have the right to express their views and disagreement in peaceful ways, as part of the same free speech rules.

You should know that Islamic religion clearly call to meet the insult with a better reaction. There are many stories to affirm that in the early ages history and Mohamed's biography.

Based on that, you're totally wrong here:
ch33zw1z said:
Good, because that's what they are. Let's them provoke you to anger and violence, and then those rubbish drawings now have power over you while you just validated those people's fears...of that religion.
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I'd say it's stupidity, some Arabic ego and even some jealousy what caused such persons to commit such act, not religion since it clearly prohibit such acts.
By the way, I'd like to say the same exact things about Pamela Geller herself.
 
werepossum said:
If you feel that believing one should be able to draw any cartoon in America without being murdered for it is a wacky ideal, then I'm assuming that forklift was to move your evening weed to the step-in bong. lol
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The wacky ideal is thinking that posting cartoons of Mo here on this board is somehow defending freedom

Do you really believe that by constantly offending people they will get used to it and stop getting offended?

I can point out several posters here who haven't budged an inch with some of their whacked out ideas, no matter the amount of reasoning, facts, ridiculing, etc they have received for a decade now
 
Victorian Gray said:
"you guys"? Don't recall ever having trampled on an American flag so, piss off?
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How does a person reason with someone like that? No matter how hard you try, it's pointless..they just make up more crap to be pissed about.
If you try harder, one day they might just fantasize up some real crazy thing and snap and hurt someone
 
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Omar F1 said:
Such points should definitely be made very clear to every Muslim living among other communities, no argument here.
However, Muslims should also have the right to express their views and disagreement in peaceful ways, as part of the same free speech rules.

You should know that Islamic religion clearly call to meet the insult with a better reaction. There are many stories to affirm that in the early ages history and Mohamed's biography.
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define better reaction. Is that attacking the person or persons who insulted you? Maybe some barbaric fits of rage thrown in there too.

What about the Boston Marathon Bombing? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston_Marathon_bombings

Do you defend that as quality reaction, in which the insult was our mere existence on this planet. Or was it our different way of living?

In your opinion, what actions and/or reactions should I expect out of someone who identifies them self as a Muslim when they're offended?

Omar F1 said:
Based on that, you're totally wrong here:
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I don't think "based on that" really carries over to your next thought...

Omar F1 said:
I'd say it's stupidity, some Arabic ego and even some jealousy what caused such persons to commit such act, not religion since it clearly prohibit such acts.
By the way, I'd like to say the same exact things about Pamela Geller herself.

You can label it however you want, what I said is accurate.
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She exercised her free speech, it's her right. I'm the last person you'll see on here defending Christians, but I will always defend a USA citizen's right to free speech. I don't see where she reacted to anything with violence.

Muslim USA citizens are free to protest events such as this in a peaceful way. Muslim USA citizens are free to insult Christians in a peaceful way as well. What goes around...comes around.
 
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Orignal Earl said:
It says right there in the first paragraph it was because of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan
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You feel that reaction was appropriate?

Do they really believe usa citizens have a real say over what our military is doing?

How about a peaceful protest?
 
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