Shimmering brought up in the [H]ardOCP 7900 article

[Ackmed]

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003

Originally posted by: thilan29

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003

It's called creating "plausible deniability". But, that's just my opinion.

Alright then in YOUR opinion, how should he have worded the title then??

I think "brought up" is fairly low on the verb force scale as it is.

What makes you think it should have been brought up again at all? And at the launch of the 7900 cards? Coincidence? Don't even go there. Just because H mentioned shimmering in the article does not make this new news. Man o Man...
It has been disputed to DEATH....
Anyway, ormandj has it pretty well nailed with that last post of his.

So now you're saying I brough it up, because it was at the launch of the 7900 cards? How about because, it was in the launch of a 7900 card article?

It makes it news, because HardOCP and denied that shimmering was an issue in the past. Kyle himself said it wasnt, on the forums. All the while, myself and others have said it very much was. Now they did a complete 180, and say that it has a HUGE negative impact on gameplay.

But, instead of trying to be mature and debate it, you instead try to slander me with comparing me to Plankton, from Sponge Bob. Way to take the high road you so often preach about.

 

[thilanliyan]

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003

Ok, and what is the difference between a 7800GTX and a 7900GTX? Die shrink and clocks. Any added features advertised like improved AF or anything? Not that I saw.
You guys will see it the way you see it. I will see it the way I see it. And you really have no choice but to deal with it as I do.

The following post I'm not directing at you keys but just quoting you cause you mentioned the 7800 and 7900.

Anyway, was there a specific reason why HardOCP before said there was no shimmering but now they say there is? I'm asking this question honestly cause I really don't know...anyone else knows?

Is there more difference to the 7800 and 7900 than clocks and a die shrink? I figured the shimmering would become LESS of an issue with newer drivers, which would work the same on 2 different cards that are thought to be only different in their mfg. process and clocks.

 

[Ackmed]

Originally posted by: thilan29

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003

Ok, and what is the difference between a 7800GTX and a 7900GTX? Die shrink and clocks. Any added features advertised like improved AF or anything? Not that I saw.
You guys will see it the way you see it. I will see it the way I see it. And you really have no choice but to deal with it as I do.

The following post I'm not directing at you keys but just quoting you cause you mentioned the 7800 and 7900.

Anyway, was there a specific reason why HardOCP before said there was no shimmering but now they say there is? I'm asking this question honestly cause I really don't know...anyone else knows?

Is there more difference to the 7800 and 7900 than clocks and a die shrink? I figured the shimmering would become LESS of an issue with newer drivers, which would work the same on 2 different cards that are thought to be only different in their mfg. process and clocks.

No, they both have the same problem. Its because its the first time HardOCP has ever used a Dell 2405FPW. And the first time they have used a very large widescreen display. As I, and now they, have said, its much more noticable that way.

Also, there is a key difference between the 7800GTX and the 7900GT. The 7900GT is louder. As loud as the X1900's which are mocked so often by some people for noise. Yet its not mentioned for the 7900GT's. Hmm.

 

[beggerking]

Originally posted by: thilan29

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003

Ok, and what is the difference between a 7800GTX and a 7900GTX? Die shrink and clocks. Any added features advertised like improved AF or anything? Not that I saw.
You guys will see it the way you see it. I will see it the way I see it. And you really have no choice but to deal with it as I do.

The following post I'm not directing at you keys but just quoting you cause you mentioned the 7800 and 7900.

Anyway, was there a specific reason why HardOCP before said there was no shimmering but now they say there is? I'm asking this question honestly cause I really don't know...anyone else knows?

Is there more difference to the 7800 and 7900 than clocks and a die shrink? I figured the shimmering would become LESS of an issue with newer drivers, which would work the same on 2 different cards that are thought to be only different in their mfg. process and clocks.

its more than a die shrink...they decreased the # of transistors as well.. more effecient, and it might run faster than 7800 clock for clock.

function-wise, there is no improvement..so it is the same shimmering issue as before.

 

[FalllenAngell]

Originally posted by: linkgoron

Originally posted by: FalllenAngell

Originally posted by: beggerking
so tell me, what is the point of these thread? the same shimmering issue has been brought up again and again and again, its old news and a repost. The referenced review pointed out 7900 is indeed a good buy *regardless* of shimmering, so the title itself is misleading.

Apparently shimmering can never be brought up enough.

If it was "news" last week, it will be "news" next week. (and the week after...and the week after....)

Long time lurker?

Anyway, I Think that nVidia should fix it, especially after saying they fixed it with a patch. The fact that it's not "new" is what makes it so annoying (imo).

"Long time lurker"? No, just commenting on the amount of times I've seen shimmering mentioned here in the short time I've been here, and the person I'm quoting saying it gets brought up a lot.

 

[beggerking]

Originally posted by: Ackmed
No, they both have the same problem. Its because its the first time HardOCP has ever used a Dell 2405FPW. And the first time they have used a very large widescreen display. As I, and now they, have said, its much more noticable that way.

Also, there is a key difference between the 7800GTX and the 7900GT. The 7900GT is louder. As loud as the X1900's which are mocked so often by some people for noise. Yet its not mentioned for the 7900GT's. Hmm.

GT is loud because NV intentionally used a crappy cooling solution to differentiate GT from GTX.. its all a marketing gimmik..it won't cost them more than a few bux/pennies to use the gtx fan (which is very silent and looks way better).

 

[linkgoron]

Originally posted by: FalllenAngell

Originally posted by: linkgoron

Originally posted by: FalllenAngell

Originally posted by: beggerking
so tell me, what is the point of these thread? the same shimmering issue has been brought up again and again and again, its old news and a repost. The referenced review pointed out 7900 is indeed a good buy *regardless* of shimmering, so the title itself is misleading.

Apparently shimmering can never be brought up enough.

If it was "news" last week, it will be "news" next week. (and the week after...and the week after....)

Long time lurker?

Anyway, I Think that nVidia should fix it, especially after saying they fixed it with a patch. The fact that it's not "new" is what makes it so annoying (imo).

"Long time lurker"? No, just commenting on the amount of times I've seen shimmering mentioned here in the short time I've been here, and the person I'm quoting saying it gets brought up a lot.

Never been a member before? Ever?

And I guess people think it's a big issue, I don't know. I too am sick about hearing about it, but its nVidia's fault.

 

[FalllenAngell]

Originally posted by: linkgoron
Never been a member before? Ever?

And I guess people think it's a big issue, I don't know. I too am sick about hearing about it, but its nVidia's fault.

Nope. I'm new to these message boards.

You're probably sicker of it than I am, as you have likely seen it more.

 

[Keysplayr]

Originally posted by: Ackmed

Originally posted by: thilan29

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003

Ok, and what is the difference between a 7800GTX and a 7900GTX? Die shrink and clocks. Any added features advertised like improved AF or anything? Not that I saw.
You guys will see it the way you see it. I will see it the way I see it. And you really have no choice but to deal with it as I do.

The following post I'm not directing at you keys but just quoting you cause you mentioned the 7800 and 7900.

Anyway, was there a specific reason why HardOCP before said there was no shimmering but now they say there is? I'm asking this question honestly cause I really don't know...anyone else knows?

Is there more difference to the 7800 and 7900 than clocks and a die shrink? I figured the shimmering would become LESS of an issue with newer drivers, which would work the same on 2 different cards that are thought to be only different in their mfg. process and clocks.

No, they both have the same problem. Its because its the first time HardOCP has ever used a Dell 2405FPW. And the first time they have used a very large widescreen display. As I, and now they, have said, its much more noticable that way.

Also, there is a key difference between the 7800GTX and the 7900GT. The 7900GT is louder. As loud as the X1900's which are mocked so often by some people for noise. Yet its not mentioned for the 7900GT's. Hmm.

LOL, I mentioned it myself. It does seem relatively loud compared to all the latest cards. And, the DB rating conflicts with the last time H did the db test. Go take a look.
So hmmmm nothing. And I'm sure you know that we were talking about core hardware differences right? not fan noise? Although that can be very annoying. So, yes?

 

[Keysplayr]

Originally posted by: Ackmed
Yeah, you can. People with hardware that doesnt have show shimmering as badly. As Ive been saying for months, you need a very large display to see just how bad it is. Its sad that people with the bigger monitors, get the worse IQ

Unfortunately, bigger/more expensive doesn't always mean better.

You could have a 50' LCD wide aspect "SuperDisplay" that costs eleventy billion dollars. But is it as good as it could be? Not if it increases shimmering. And you call my 19" "little" screen inferior? Obviously it is not if I can't see this shimmering. Tell me, do you think your monitor is better than mine based on size and cost? or are there other key factors here that makes yours better than mine for gaming? I have always stated that CRT's are superior to LCD's for gaming and will be for a while longer until newer technologies come around to address LCD shortcomings. I went as far as recessing my CRT into a wall because just about the only thing I like about LCD's are the space they save on a desk. Power consumption be damned, I want picture perfect gaming. You sacrificed that when you bought that 2405. Maybe you didn't realize the "cost" of the extra expense.

 

[akugami]

Originally posted by: beggerking

Originally posted by: Ackmed
No, they both have the same problem. Its because its the first time HardOCP has ever used a Dell 2405FPW. And the first time they have used a very large widescreen display. As I, and now they, have said, its much more noticable that way.

Also, there is a key difference between the 7800GTX and the 7900GT. The 7900GT is louder. As loud as the X1900's which are mocked so often by some people for noise. Yet its not mentioned for the 7900GT's. Hmm.

GT is loud because NV intentionally used a crappy cooling solution to differentiate GT from GTX.. its all a marketing gimmik..it won't cost them more than a few bux/pennies to use the gtx fan (which is very silent and looks way better).

Louder is louder. I didn't even know until Ackmed brought it up that the new 7900GT's were louder than the old 7800GTX's. I would have thought that it was the same, noise wise, as a 7800GT. The die shrink and reduced transistor count should have meant a reduced heat output meaning even if they used a lesser cooling solution.

Again, louder is louder. If you're going to excuse nVidia for using a louder cooling solution and say that they could have used a better cooling solution on the 7900GT's then you also have to excuse ATI and say that they could have used a better and quieter cooling solution.

I'm not trying to excuse ATI for their noisy cooling solution here, just saying it's hypocritical to excuse one company and not the other for similar negatives. I truly think ATI should have updated the cooling solution on their X1900 series over the X1800 after all the complaints about the increased noise.

But in truth, this issue doesn't affect me as much. It's COLD here in Philadelphia in the winter time so any video card I have shouldn't be as hot due to the lower ambient temperature. And in the summer time I have the AC running all the time so I usually can't hear my computer over that anyways. Not to mention when I'm watching a movie/video or playing games, or even just web browsing I have the speakers running which usually drown out a lot of ambient sound. So long as the card doesn't sound like a jet engine I'm fine.

Originally posted by: beggerking
I guess it doesn't bother you to hear / read about shimmering over and over again everytime you open up anandtech/forum page.

You can always ignore the thread...unless someone has a gun to your head telling you to read it.

 

[Cygnus X1]

I have the 7900gt and can't even here the fan. To much talk about fan noise. If you don't like fans, I suggest you get out of computers completly.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: Cygnus X1
I have the 7900gt and can't even here the fan. To much talk about fan noise. If you don't like fans, I suggest you get out of computers completly.

Or use a silenced PSU and water-cooling. It's not that hard.

 

[akugami]

Originally posted by: xtknight

Originally posted by: Cygnus X1
I have the 7900gt and can't even here the fan. To much talk about fan noise. If you don't like fans, I suggest you get out of computers completly.

Or use a silenced PSU and water-cooling. It's not that hard.

My little bro has a water cooling kit. I'm still a bit paranoid with the water + electrical components thing.

 

[Madellga]

Originally posted by: AznAnarchy99

Originally posted by: Madellga

Originally posted by: AznAnarchy99
i dont notice shimmering on my 7800gtx but i do notice its amazing loud fan and how hot it gets.

Then by all means don't get the X1800/X1900 series. It is hotter and louder (under load).
I can tell you based on my own experience, I had both cards for a week.

I kind of disagree about the GTX. System fans and CPU cooling is louder than the GTX.
The 7800GT is indeed a bit louder, Í replaced the original fan with an Artic Silencer.

If yours is really loud and running hot, perhaps the heatsink is not properly set or your case has bad airflow. Try to check it.

With my comp, the only thing you can really hear are the optical drives when they spin and my video card at load. Ive checked all of that and basically what im doing is waiting for the vf900 to come out to replace my stock. I would go silencer or vf700 but i want to be SLI upgradable later and i dont want an x1 because its ugly (even though i wont ever see it lol..)

I have a "silent" system and my hardware is pretty similar to yours. Under load, the loudest component is the DFI chipset fan - that beats everything together. After that, the 120mm case fans are the noise dominant (Enermax, adjustable @minimum speed) - not because of the fan speed, but due to the air flow they are moving. I can't normally hear the hard drives (2 Seagates) and the Optical Drives (1 Toshiba, 1 Nec). The GTX cannot be heard, as so with the GTs with Silencer.

Did you replace the chipset fan for a passive solution?
Perhaps it is a matter of the location / furniture configuration in combination to the room you are.

And last, you can have silencers installed for SLI (there is nothing interfering with the SLI bridge), if your mobo has the room between the cards. The DFI Expert allows that, but not the original DFI Lanparty.

 

[Ackmed]

Originally posted by: akugami

Originally posted by: xtknight

Originally posted by: Cygnus X1
I have the 7900gt and can't even here the fan. To much talk about fan noise. If you don't like fans, I suggest you get out of computers completly.

Or use a silenced PSU and water-cooling. It's not that hard.

My little bro has a water cooling kit. I'm still a bit paranoid with the water + electrical components thing.

Its not that bad. Watercooling has come a long way from when it first came out. There are several good kits, and a lot are virtually "leak proof", using compression fittings that you cant pull off if you wanted to.

Ive watercooled 4 PC's, and even had a phase-change/watercooled combo PC. Im going to be ordering another WC setup today, its not that hard.

Madellga, that DFI chipset fan is why I went back to Asus, and their heatpipe. That dang thing was easily the loudest part of my PC. I did have Silencers on my GTX's on my NF4-D (modded to SLI). However, my A8N32 didnt have enough room with my sound card in there, so they had to go.

 

[GOREGRINDER]

lol,..some of you guys crack me up im tellin ya (in a good way of course )


alls i know is i have a widescreen lcd on dvi (viewsonic actually) with sli'd gtx's and anyone who buys any piece of hardware and just uses it as its plopped in yer pc,.. is a noob lol (i cant believe i just used that word but i couldnt think of any other way to describe it,..lol) for driver settings i myself use quality with trilinear and anisotroic optimizations "off" ,gamma correct "on"(<--most important image quality setting if you use AA imo) and transperency AA at "supersampling"and negative lod bias "clamp" as anyone useing AF should...with those settings shimmering is dampened heavily(almost unoticeable unless your head is stuck starin at the floor grates in doom3 for a half an hour at all angles,and even then youd be hard pressed in most scenes) while still retaining the speed of quality to enable the higher order AA with the high native/aspect resolution widescreen lcd's have,..unless your not using the lcd monitors native res in which the entire scene is practically a shimmer

 

[Madellga]

Ackmed, I got the DFI-Expert just before Xmas and since it is winter, room temperature helps keeping the fan low.

I did build a second rig using a MSI mAtx (Nvidia 430) in a Aspire X-Qpack and I am very happy with it. I might dump the DFI and go for this machine (taking all good stuff from mine). I will need a top card, as SLI will not be a possibility. In this case it would be a difficult choice between X1900 and 7900GTX. The choice would be the GTX, for running cooler and quieter.

Gore, you are right about the driver settings. You can do a lot better when you know how to set it properly. But I don't think most users go looking into Forums for troubleshooting.

Most people will just run Nvidia or ATI default settings. 90% of people I know cannot tell the difference between graphic cards, CPUs or chipsets. They most likely don't even download new drivers and stuff like that.

In order to do what we do here you have to:
1) Be an IT guy for a living
or
2) You are interested in IT for some reason (hobby, fun, games, etc) and got "educated" on it over the years

 

[FalllenAngell]

LOL

I can't believe this got 143 replies!

If you read the text the OP quoted, you'll note a couple things:

1. HardOCP never noticed this shimmer before using a Dell 2405FPSW monitor.

we have never specifically addressed it as we have never truly seen it impact our gameplay, but that is simply not the case with our 24? widescreen display.

2. HardOCP only noticed this on two MMORG games, not all the others they tested.

We found in World of Warcraft there was horrible texture crawling....We also noticed texture crawling in EverQuest II....I didn?t really notice it or find anything distracting in games other than those mentioned above

So this is only issue in a couple games, and it's an issue on ATI cards as well for those two, from what I've read.

3. If you want to play the two games on a monitor that exhibits this, you can lessen it with driver settings:

We are aware that you can force a higher mode of texture filtering by turning off some of their optimizations

So I don't understand what you are trying to accomplish with this thread Ackmed?



Are you trying to warn 2405FPW owners who play WOW and EQ2 the texture crawl may be worse on nVidia based cards than ATI???

Errrr, OK, "mission accomplished"?

 

[imported_Crusader]

See sig.

/thread

 

[M0RPH]

Originally posted by: FalllenAngell

Are you trying to warn 2405FPW owners who play WOW and EQ2 the texture crawl may be worse on nVidia based cards than ATI???

Errrr, OK, "mission accomplished"?

Maybe he is. Something wrong with that? THe truth is shimmering is a problem for Nvidia in other games besides the ones they noticed it in. Many others have reported it. And I've seen it clearly in videos on my CRT, so it's not just visible on an LCD.

Give it up, Rollo. Be man enough to accept your ban and stay away.

 

[FalllenAngell]

Originally posted by: M0RPH

Originally posted by: FalllenAngell

Are you trying to warn 2405FPW owners who play WOW and EQ2 the texture crawl may be worse on nVidia based cards than ATI???

Errrr, OK, "mission accomplished"?

Maybe he is. Something wrong with that? THe truth is shimmering is a problem for Nvidia in other games besides the ones they noticed it in. Many others have reported it. And I've seen it clearly in videos on my CRT, so it's not just visible on an LCD.

Give it up, Rollo. Be man enough to accept your ban and stay away.

As many others have reported it MORPH, how about posting links to other reviews where it's pointed out in other games?

That should be easy if "many are pointing it out" as you say?

Is "Rollo" some kind of board nickname for someone you disagree with?

 

[imported_Crusader]

Originally posted by: M0RPH

Originally posted by: FalllenAngell

Are you trying to warn 2405FPW owners who play WOW and EQ2 the texture crawl may be worse on nVidia based cards than ATI???

Errrr, OK, "mission accomplished"?

Maybe he is. Something wrong with that? THe truth is shimmering is a problem for Nvidia in other games besides the ones they noticed it in. Many others have reported it. And I've seen it clearly in videos on my CRT, so it's not just visible on an LCD.

Give it up, Rollo. Be man enough to accept your ban and stay away.

Wow. Vacation for you.
Unless you have any direct proof of this guy being Rollo then you need to STFU.

 

[5150Joker]

Originally posted by: FalllenAngell


Is "Rollo" some kind of board nickname for someone you disagree with?

Pretty sad that some people get disgraced so badly and then come back under an alias and different IP. It's worse than Turtle/Intelia at least he wasn't humiliated in a nealry 100 page thread and then sent packing by the mods. I hope when I reach my 40s I'm not some pathetic overweight guy making $30k a year and depending on corporate handouts via forum trolling just to afford SLI like my old friend Rollo.

 

[5150Joker]

Originally posted by: FalllenAngell
LOL

I can't believe this got 143 replies!

Believe it.

If you read the text the OP quoted, you'll note a couple things:

1. HardOCP never noticed this shimmer before using a Dell 2405FPSW monitor.

we have never specifically addressed it as we have never truly seen it impact our gameplay, but that is simply not the case with our 24? widescreen display.

Yeah that's their way of not having to readily admit being wrong all this time. I have a 20" LCD and the eye poking subpar AF of the 7800 was very apparent.

2. HardOCP only noticed this on two MMORG games, not all the others they tested.

We found in World of Warcraft there was horrible texture crawling....We also noticed texture crawling in EverQuest II....I didn?t really notice it or find anything distracting in games other than those mentioned above

From the BF2 benchmarks of the 7900 review:

We like the Higher Quality AF filtering that the X1900 XTX does though. ATI?s HQ AF really helps with image quality in an outdoor game like BF2 when compared to NVIDIA?s way of doing filtering. There are a lot of angles to the ground textures in BF2 and having the filtering performed in ATI?s superior way can indeed provide a noticeably better visual quality and overall better gaming experience. You can find forum arguments all over the Net about Red Vs. Green when it comes to texture filtering, but this is one situation where ATI?s technology clearly leads in the real-world gaming experience battle.

That must hurt seeing nVidia's mouthpiece HardOCP having to fess up and admit that their green sponsors just can't cut it in the IQ department.

So this is only issue in a couple games, and it's an issue on ATI cards as well for those two, from what I've read.

LOL just a couple of the most popular games on the planet! Add to that BF2 and of course HL2/Source: http://pics.bbzzdd.com/users/Amphibious/HL2Q.JPG One starts to wonder, is there a popular game that nVidia AF doesn't suck at? At this rate poor nVidia 7800/7900 owners will need goggles to protect them from the awful moire/shimmering/crawling.