She was impressively composed, definitely has talent... But she lied repeatedly

[OrByte]

Originally posted by: sactoking

Originally posted by: OrByte

bravo to Palin, she gets to say that Obama will raise everyone's taxes BURDEN. :disgust:

If there's no functional equivalent between raising taxes directly and indirectly, why be disgusted?

Or better yet, maybe the American people should be MORE disgusted that Obama plans to raise their tax burden and not their taxes! Why? In the end, whether you charge me $5 in taxes or you charge AM/PM $5 to sell a Big Gulp, that $5 gets passed to SOMEONE. When you do it indirectly, all you do is increase inefficiency. Collecting $5 in taxes will cost the economy less that collecting $5 from AM/PM and having AM/PM collect it from me.

Don't tell us that raising tax burden is some sort of lie or 'out' using semantics. IT IS WORSE THAN DIRECTLY TAXING US!

I am not a tax expert by any means. But I don't agree with you that its the inefficiency of the tax burden that is actually worse for Americans than a direct tax increase.

I don't understand how if AMPM gets taxed $5 to sell a Big Gulp, then AMPM will pass that entire $5 tax increase down to me as a consumer. Is that increasing that big gulp price by $5? I think its more likely that if the tax burden for a corporation increases, then that corporation will POSSIBLY pass down that increase by some factor of the increase relative to whatever market demand price there is for it's product. In other words, that same Big Gulp will not have a price increase of $5 but more likely $.05.

In other words. IMHO its the very inefficiency in any tax increase passed to Businesses that protects Americans from having to dig deeper into their wallets wherein the alternative would be to pay for a direct tax increase.

I'm no expert, but I don't see the price of my Big Gulp increasing by a 1to1 factor related to any tax increase.

 

[Xavier434]

Originally posted by: OrByte
I am not a tax expert by any means. But I don't agree with you that its the inefficiency of the tax burden that is actually worse for Americans than a direct tax increase.

I don't understand how if AMPM gets taxed $5 to sell a Big Gulp, then AMPM will pass that entire $5 tax increase down to me as a consumer. Is that increasing that big gulp price by $5? I think its more likely that if the tax burden for a corporation increases, then that corporation will POSSIBLY pass down that increase by some factor of the increase relative to whatever market demand price there is for it's product. In other words, that same Big Gulp will not have a price increase of $5 but more likely $.05.

In other words. IMHO its the very inefficiency in any tax increase passed to Businesses that protects Americans from having to dig deeper into their wallets wherein the alternative would be to pay for a direct tax increase.

I'm no expert, but I don't see the price of my Big Gulp increasing by a 1to1 factor related to any tax increase.

Not to mention that the tax breaks for businesses are not creating nearly as many jobs these days as they used to. There is so much work going overseas it is ridiculous.

 

[Perknose]

Originally posted by: Whoozyerdaddy
I think we can all agree that BHO is no MLK. Not even close.

Although Palin is pretty much Dan Quayle with tits -- young, inexperienced, and chosen by an elderly Repub presidential nominee for the most shallow of reasons!

 

[Stoneburner]

Originally posted by: OrByte
I couldn't believe the rhetoric that Palin was speaking last night about Obama's tax plan.

According to her speech last night everyone is going to get a tax increase under Obama's plan.

That was simply a lie. I am happy to hear that these lies are being noticed.

And it should not go ignored.

It's sad to see the GOP lying to America on such a big important stage.

YOu missed how she phrased it! SHe never specifically said their taxes would be raised, she said, "Would a tax increase help them?" IT was very weasely and stupid and disingenuous! But funny! Think about it, she did what BUsh did to link Iraq and Al Qaeda.

That was the most pathetic part of her speech.

 

[Druidx]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn

Originally posted by: OrByte
I couldn't believe the rhetoric that Palin was speaking last night about Obama's tax plan.

According to her speech last night everyone is going to get a tax increase under Obama's plan.

That was simply a lie. I am happy to hear that these lies are being noticed.

And it should not go ignored.

It's sad to see the GOP lying to America on such a big important stage.

If you increase the taxes on a business who will pay that increase??

The businesses will take up the extra cost, not the consumer. Just like when fuel prices jumped earlier this year. Opps. Never mind.
It doesn't matter, Obama is a great man. It's about time someone stuck it to the rich and corps to pay for my personal entitlements.

 

[OrByte]

Originally posted by: Stoneburner

Originally posted by: OrByte
I couldn't believe the rhetoric that Palin was speaking last night about Obama's tax plan.

According to her speech last night everyone is going to get a tax increase under Obama's plan.

That was simply a lie. I am happy to hear that these lies are being noticed.

And it should not go ignored.

It's sad to see the GOP lying to America on such a big important stage.

YOu missed how she phrased it! SHe never specifically said their taxes would be raised, she said, "Would a tax increase help them?" IT was very weasely and stupid and disingenuous! But funny! Think about it, she did what BUsh did to link Iraq and Al Qaeda.

That was the most pathetic part of her speech.

I'm backing off of saying she LIED. She said what she had to say very artfully.

I guess I heard what I thought I heard. That Obama will raise taxes on practially everyone. And based upon that in and of itself, she got the message across that she wanted to. Lie or not.

 

[JD50]

Originally posted by: Stoneburner

Originally posted by: OrByte
I couldn't believe the rhetoric that Palin was speaking last night about Obama's tax plan.

According to her speech last night everyone is going to get a tax increase under Obama's plan.

That was simply a lie. I am happy to hear that these lies are being noticed.

And it should not go ignored.

It's sad to see the GOP lying to America on such a big important stage.

YOu missed how she phrased it! SHe never specifically said their taxes would be raised, she said, "Would a tax increase help them?" IT was very weasely and stupid and disingenuous! But funny! Think about it, she did what BUsh did to link Iraq and Al Qaeda.

That was the most pathetic part of her speech.

So is BHO going to renew the Bush tax cuts?

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: JD50

Originally posted by: Stoneburner

Originally posted by: OrByte
I couldn't believe the rhetoric that Palin was speaking last night about Obama's tax plan.

According to her speech last night everyone is going to get a tax increase under Obama's plan.

That was simply a lie. I am happy to hear that these lies are being noticed.

And it should not go ignored.

It's sad to see the GOP lying to America on such a big important stage.

YOu missed how she phrased it! SHe never specifically said their taxes would be raised, she said, "Would a tax increase help them?" IT was very weasely and stupid and disingenuous! But funny! Think about it, she did what BUsh did to link Iraq and Al Qaeda.

That was the most pathetic part of her speech.

So is BHO going to renew the Bush tax cuts?

Shh.... that's not in the "plan" so it doesn't count. His "plan" says he'll lower taxes so you have to take it at face value.

 

[FuzzyBee]

Originally posted by: OrByte

Originally posted by: sactoking

Originally posted by: OrByte

bravo to Palin, she gets to say that Obama will raise everyone's taxes BURDEN. :disgust:

If there's no functional equivalent between raising taxes directly and indirectly, why be disgusted?

Or better yet, maybe the American people should be MORE disgusted that Obama plans to raise their tax burden and not their taxes! Why? In the end, whether you charge me $5 in taxes or you charge AM/PM $5 to sell a Big Gulp, that $5 gets passed to SOMEONE. When you do it indirectly, all you do is increase inefficiency. Collecting $5 in taxes will cost the economy less that collecting $5 from AM/PM and having AM/PM collect it from me.

Don't tell us that raising tax burden is some sort of lie or 'out' using semantics. IT IS WORSE THAN DIRECTLY TAXING US!

I am not a tax expert by any means. But I don't agree with you that its the inefficiency of the tax burden that is actually worse for Americans than a direct tax increase.

I don't understand how if AMPM gets taxed $5 to sell a Big Gulp, then AMPM will pass that entire $5 tax increase down to me as a consumer. Is that increasing that big gulp price by $5? I think its more likely that if the tax burden for a corporation increases, then that corporation will POSSIBLY pass down that increase by some factor of the increase relative to whatever market demand price there is for it's product. In other words, that same Big Gulp will not have a price increase of $5 but more likely $.05.

In other words. IMHO its the very inefficiency in any tax increase passed to Businesses that protects Americans from having to dig deeper into their wallets wherein the alternative would be to pay for a direct tax increase.

I'm no expert, but I don't see the price of my Big Gulp increasing by a 1to1 factor related to any tax increase.

While I see where you're coming from, I have to disagree. Would the company just absorb the other $4.95 of the tax increase? Doubtful.

In fact, I'd bet that if the tax were $5, most companies would pass $5.25 down to the consumer - it's too easy to blame the government for the increase. After all, if this tax is on every Big Gulp provided by every company, than the increased costs are going to apply to every company - level playing field.

 

[pstylesss]

Originally posted by: OrByte

Originally posted by: ProfJohn

Originally posted by: OrByte

Originally posted by: ProfJohn

Originally posted by: OrByte
I couldn't believe the rhetoric that Palin was speaking last night about Obama's tax plan.

According to her speech last night everyone is going to get a tax increase under Obama's plan.

That was simply a lie. I am happy to hear that these lies are being noticed.

And it should not go ignored.

It's sad to see the GOP lying to America on such a big important stage.

If you increase the taxes on a business who will pay that increase??

thats not what she said.

She said Obama's tax plan will raise practically everyone's taxes

that is different. Maybe she had to dumb down her message to get it across. hmmmmm

You are talking semantics.

HAHAHAHA no im sorry my friend. Its not semantics.

If I increase TAXES on you.. and you are a business owner...you might possibly increase your price of goods which increases the COSTS of GOODS to CONSUMERS.

She used fvcked up reasoning when she said that Obama would increase TAXES on practically everyone.

That is not semantics....she lied. Either that, or she figured her audience was too stupid to know the difference between a TAX increase and an increase in COST of goods.


Edit: after rereading her statements directly she seemed to wiggle out of the lie with the following:

and increase the tax burden on the American people by hundreds of billions of dollars

By saying tax BURDEN I think she can argue that she was infact talking about an increase in taxes that would trickle down to consumers in the form of an increase in COST of goods.

bravo to Palin, she gets to say that Obama will raise everyone's taxes BURDEN. :disgust:

I think you just discovered the basic concept of taxing businesses which democrats have yet to grasp :light:

Now, if you figure out that these are bad you are well on your way to becoming a fiscal republican!

 

[OrByte]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: JD50

Originally posted by: Stoneburner

Originally posted by: OrByte
I couldn't believe the rhetoric that Palin was speaking last night about Obama's tax plan.

According to her speech last night everyone is going to get a tax increase under Obama's plan.

That was simply a lie. I am happy to hear that these lies are being noticed.

And it should not go ignored.

It's sad to see the GOP lying to America on such a big important stage.

YOu missed how she phrased it! SHe never specifically said their taxes would be raised, she said, "Would a tax increase help them?" IT was very weasely and stupid and disingenuous! But funny! Think about it, she did what BUsh did to link Iraq and Al Qaeda.

That was the most pathetic part of her speech.

So is BHO going to renew the Bush tax cuts?

Shh.... that's not in the "plan" so it doesn't count. His "plan" says he'll lower taxes so you have to take it at face value.

Read this and take what you will from it.

You know, what it really boils down to is a difference in economic philosophies. I agree with Obama's plan in that it puts more money in more peoples pocket. Isn't that what we want? people to spend money?

I don't agree with McCain's plan in that it gives tax breaks to the wealthiest. It is GWBs plan in a nutshell and so far it hasn't worked very well.

just my .02

 

[pstylesss]

Originally posted by: Xavier434

Originally posted by: quest55720

Originally posted by: Xavier434

Originally posted by: ProfJohn

Originally posted by: OrByte
I couldn't believe the rhetoric that Palin was speaking last night about Obama's tax plan.

According to her speech last night everyone is going to get a tax increase under Obama's plan.

That was simply a lie. I am happy to hear that these lies are being noticed.

And it should not go ignored.

It's sad to see the GOP lying to America on such a big important stage.

If you increase the taxes on a business who will pay that increase??

If you decrease the taxes on a business, who do you think the majority of the money will benefit?

Maybe they would invest in R&D,add new buildings or even hire new people. I know business is evil damn them for giving us jobs.

I agree. Maybe they would also be giving themselves huge bonuses and pay increases at the end of the year. Maybe they would be less strict about spending money on crap such as expensive business trips whose purpose could easily be fulfilled via video conference or even a few phone calls. Never underestimate the power of greed and self gain that exists within the minds of big business execs. They are not looking out for you. They are looking out for themselves. Not all of their methods of self gain trickle down to their employees at a reasonable amount and I can guarantee you that it is not amongst their top priorities either.

The point is that there are pros and cons to both sides of reasoning and the real answer is more balance. Right now, it is not balanced. The middle class and below are getting raped too much and they are not seeing enough of the kinds of benefits that they should be seeing from big business who is currently getting lots of tax breaks. The government is not getting smaller though now is it? They are getting their money from somewhere to replace that which was lost from the breaks and it is being sucked out from the middle class and below as well as being borrowed left and right. I don't want to tax businesses far too much because that doesn't help me either, but right now we need some adjustments to help balance the equation.

Wanting either more tax breaks for business or keeping it the same right now is typical thinking from someone who wants everything, but they don't want to pay for it. That's very typical Republican thinking and I can't say that the Dems are that much better all of the time, but given the current problems that I believe are most important and the people willing to try and solve them I think the Dems are better for the job.

The great thing about America is the ability of a small business to turn into a big business and the people who put in the hard work and money into the startup are able to benefit from it. Remember, all that money those big execs get are put directly into the economy (via stocks & investments) which benefits all of us, our economy grows, your 401k benefits and people trying to start small businesses now have investors.

Yes, those evil, greedy CEOs... :roll:


Of course everyone understands there are evil people and exceptions to every rules, so lets not argue the extremes please, it's ridiculous.

 

[Druidx]

Originally posted by: evident
FACT CHECK - mccain lies about obama tax plan

Even worse, Obama lies about Obama's tax plan

Interesting to note, when anyone else gets it wrong Fact Check calls it lies.
When Obama gets it wrong , Fact Check calls it stretching the truth.

 

[pstylesss]

Originally posted by: OrByte

Originally posted by: sactoking

Originally posted by: OrByte

bravo to Palin, she gets to say that Obama will raise everyone's taxes BURDEN. :disgust:

If there's no functional equivalent between raising taxes directly and indirectly, why be disgusted?

Or better yet, maybe the American people should be MORE disgusted that Obama plans to raise their tax burden and not their taxes! Why? In the end, whether you charge me $5 in taxes or you charge AM/PM $5 to sell a Big Gulp, that $5 gets passed to SOMEONE. When you do it indirectly, all you do is increase inefficiency. Collecting $5 in taxes will cost the economy less that collecting $5 from AM/PM and having AM/PM collect it from me.

Don't tell us that raising tax burden is some sort of lie or 'out' using semantics. IT IS WORSE THAN DIRECTLY TAXING US!

I am not a tax expert by any means. But I don't agree with you that its the inefficiency of the tax burden that is actually worse for Americans than a direct tax increase.

I don't understand how if AMPM gets taxed $5 to sell a Big Gulp, then AMPM will pass that entire $5 tax increase down to me as a consumer. Is that increasing that big gulp price by $5? I think its more likely that if the tax burden for a corporation increases, then that corporation will POSSIBLY pass down that increase by some factor of the increase relative to whatever market demand price there is for it's product. In other words, that same Big Gulp will not have a price increase of $5 but more likely $.05.

In other words. IMHO its the very inefficiency in any tax increase passed to Businesses that protects Americans from having to dig deeper into their wallets wherein the alternative would be to pay for a direct tax increase.

I'm no expert, but I don't see the price of my Big Gulp increasing by a 1to1 factor related to any tax increase.

It increases across the board on everything they're selling. It also affects the amount they can pay the employees and the benefits they are able to give. The companies do eat some of the taxes, I'm sure, depending on the industry and whatnot, which affects their R&D, which has a direct impact on us and their employees.

 

[pstylesss]

Originally posted by: Xavier434

Originally posted by: OrByte
I am not a tax expert by any means. But I don't agree with you that its the inefficiency of the tax burden that is actually worse for Americans than a direct tax increase.

I don't understand how if AMPM gets taxed $5 to sell a Big Gulp, then AMPM will pass that entire $5 tax increase down to me as a consumer. Is that increasing that big gulp price by $5? I think its more likely that if the tax burden for a corporation increases, then that corporation will POSSIBLY pass down that increase by some factor of the increase relative to whatever market demand price there is for it's product. In other words, that same Big Gulp will not have a price increase of $5 but more likely $.05.

In other words. IMHO its the very inefficiency in any tax increase passed to Businesses that protects Americans from having to dig deeper into their wallets wherein the alternative would be to pay for a direct tax increase.

I'm no expert, but I don't see the price of my Big Gulp increasing by a 1to1 factor related to any tax increase.

Not to mention that the tax breaks for businesses are not creating nearly as many jobs these days as they used to. There is so much work going overseas it is ridiculous.

I would blame that on a) some unions; and b) a country with a lower or no corporate taxes. It's stupid business decision to keep a company in the US when they can send it outside, be taxed much less, price their goods lower and sell more, which brings more profit. This also affects their stock prices and helps the US economy, albeit much less than if the company was actually in the US.

This is why the merits of the FairTax should be fairly discussed, but please, lets not turn this into a FairTax debate.

 

[Xavier434]

Originally posted by: FuzzyBee

Originally posted by: OrByte

Originally posted by: sactoking

Originally posted by: OrByte

bravo to Palin, she gets to say that Obama will raise everyone's taxes BURDEN. :disgust:

If there's no functional equivalent between raising taxes directly and indirectly, why be disgusted?

Or better yet, maybe the American people should be MORE disgusted that Obama plans to raise their tax burden and not their taxes! Why? In the end, whether you charge me $5 in taxes or you charge AM/PM $5 to sell a Big Gulp, that $5 gets passed to SOMEONE. When you do it indirectly, all you do is increase inefficiency. Collecting $5 in taxes will cost the economy less that collecting $5 from AM/PM and having AM/PM collect it from me.

Don't tell us that raising tax burden is some sort of lie or 'out' using semantics. IT IS WORSE THAN DIRECTLY TAXING US!

I am not a tax expert by any means. But I don't agree with you that its the inefficiency of the tax burden that is actually worse for Americans than a direct tax increase.

I don't understand how if AMPM gets taxed $5 to sell a Big Gulp, then AMPM will pass that entire $5 tax increase down to me as a consumer. Is that increasing that big gulp price by $5? I think its more likely that if the tax burden for a corporation increases, then that corporation will POSSIBLY pass down that increase by some factor of the increase relative to whatever market demand price there is for it's product. In other words, that same Big Gulp will not have a price increase of $5 but more likely $.05.

In other words. IMHO its the very inefficiency in any tax increase passed to Businesses that protects Americans from having to dig deeper into their wallets wherein the alternative would be to pay for a direct tax increase.

I'm no expert, but I don't see the price of my Big Gulp increasing by a 1to1 factor related to any tax increase.

While I see where you're coming from, I have to disagree. Would the company just absorb the other $4.95 of the tax increase? Doubtful.

In fact, I'd bet that if the tax were $5, most companies would pass $5.25 down to the consumer - it's too easy to blame the government for the increase. After all, if this tax is on every Big Gulp provided by every company, than the increased costs are going to apply to every company - level playing field.

I don't think they will pass down that much to the customer because the customer will just stop buying their product and look for something cheaper like they always do once the price of a product looks unreasonable compared to what they are used to. Market competition will keep that reasonably balanced too. I believe that prices for certain specific products might go up some, but I also believe that the decrease in taxes on the middle class and below will be greater to the point where they benefit more from it for the time being.

The businesses will not have as much money at the end of the year and that is potential problem if they end up being taxed too much for too long. That can cause jobs to vanish and it can halt growth. However, tax breaks does not necessarily mean more jobs will pop up for Americans either. Giving more money to business is not forcing them to spend in ways which help most of this country nor do they wish to spend it that way. They want to spend it in whatever way benefits themselves the most and right now we are not seeing enough of those ways to justify the purpose of the current tax breaks. No matter what the taxes are, businesses will always shoot for whatever labor is cheapest and they are finding that cheap labor more and more overseas these days and that is just one example. The beneficial trickle down effect of business tax breaks seems to be less and less as time goes on.

 

[pstylesss]

Originally posted by: OrByte

Originally posted by: Stoneburner

Originally posted by: OrByte
I couldn't believe the rhetoric that Palin was speaking last night about Obama's tax plan.

According to her speech last night everyone is going to get a tax increase under Obama's plan.

That was simply a lie. I am happy to hear that these lies are being noticed.

And it should not go ignored.

It's sad to see the GOP lying to America on such a big important stage.

YOu missed how she phrased it! SHe never specifically said their taxes would be raised, she said, "Would a tax increase help them?" IT was very weasely and stupid and disingenuous! But funny! Think about it, she did what BUsh did to link Iraq and Al Qaeda.

That was the most pathetic part of her speech.

I'm backing off of saying she LIED. She said what she had to say very artfully.

I guess I heard what I thought I heard. That Obama will raise taxes on practially everyone. And based upon that in and of itself, she got the message across that she wanted to. Lie or not.

It wasn't a lie. It's called embed taxation. It's in everything we buy. Corporate taxes are passed down to the consumer. You increase those taxes, the embed taxes are increased and we viola, we are all taxed at a higher margin. She didn't even come close to lie, only outed what the Ds are always trying to hide.

Although, that is the beauty of Obama's plan, what people don't see isn't actually there... right?

PAY NO ATTENTION TO THE MAN BEHIND THE CURTAIN!

 

[Stoneburner]

Originally posted by: ZeroIQ

Originally posted by: OrByte

Originally posted by: Stoneburner

Originally posted by: OrByte
I couldn't believe the rhetoric that Palin was speaking last night about Obama's tax plan.

According to her speech last night everyone is going to get a tax increase under Obama's plan.

That was simply a lie. I am happy to hear that these lies are being noticed.

And it should not go ignored.

It's sad to see the GOP lying to America on such a big important stage.

YOu missed how she phrased it! SHe never specifically said their taxes would be raised, she said, "Would a tax increase help them?" IT was very weasely and stupid and disingenuous! But funny! Think about it, she did what BUsh did to link Iraq and Al Qaeda.

That was the most pathetic part of her speech.

I'm backing off of saying she LIED. She said what she had to say very artfully.

I guess I heard what I thought I heard. That Obama will raise taxes on practially everyone. And based upon that in and of itself, she got the message across that she wanted to. Lie or not.

It wasn't a lie. It's called embed taxation. It's in everything we buy. Corporate taxes are passed down to the consumer. You increase those taxes, the embed taxes are increased and we viola, we are all taxed at a higher margin. She didn't even come close to lie, only outed what the Ds are always trying to hide.

Although, that is the beauty of Obama's plan, what people don't see isn't actually there... right?

PAY NO ATTENTION TO THE MAN BEHIND THE CURTAIN!

She did lie through misleading, just like good old bush

Artfully my ass, that was weasely and childish.


And ZeroIQ, why do you assume taxes are passed down? When in the regular chain of commerce extra costs are passed down, that's adjusted for the market. But passing down personal income tax to customers? Where did you pull that out of?

 

[Xavier434]

Originally posted by: ZeroIQ

Originally posted by: Xavier434

Originally posted by: OrByte
I am not a tax expert by any means. But I don't agree with you that its the inefficiency of the tax burden that is actually worse for Americans than a direct tax increase.

I don't understand how if AMPM gets taxed $5 to sell a Big Gulp, then AMPM will pass that entire $5 tax increase down to me as a consumer. Is that increasing that big gulp price by $5? I think its more likely that if the tax burden for a corporation increases, then that corporation will POSSIBLY pass down that increase by some factor of the increase relative to whatever market demand price there is for it's product. In other words, that same Big Gulp will not have a price increase of $5 but more likely $.05.

In other words. IMHO its the very inefficiency in any tax increase passed to Businesses that protects Americans from having to dig deeper into their wallets wherein the alternative would be to pay for a direct tax increase.

I'm no expert, but I don't see the price of my Big Gulp increasing by a 1to1 factor related to any tax increase.

Not to mention that the tax breaks for businesses are not creating nearly as many jobs these days as they used to. There is so much work going overseas it is ridiculous.

I would blame that on a) some unions; and b) a country with a lower or no corporate taxes. It's stupid business decision to keep a company in the US when they can send it outside, be taxes much less, price their goods lower and sell more, which brings more profit. This also affects their stock prices and helps the US economy, albeit much less than if the company was actually in the US.

This is why the merits of the FairTax should be fairly discussed, but please, lets not turn this into a FairTax debate.

Some unions are partially to blame and we cannot control what other countries do so there is no benefit from pointing blame on them. However, the corporations are still the ones holding all of the aces. They have all the power in this situation and they are making choices which are shooting themselves in the foot in the long run. Their decision to make those extra bucks through overseas cheap labor is killing us.

The bottom line is that there are many slices to this huge complex pie and the only real answer is to achieve a balance which benefits the current state of the times the most. Right now, it is unbalanced. The little people are not seeing the kinds of benefits they should be seeing with their "investment" in business tax breaks. For the time being, the juice just isn't worth the squeeze. As I have already stated, I don't believe the opposite end of the spectrum is very productive either but we cannot do this forever. The little people have a lot less money in their pockets even though the theory of business tax breaks suggests otherwise. Jobs are disappearing everywhere. Growth is practically unheard of. Too many people are not spending their money because they really don't have any to spend.

Balancing the equation more by putting more money in the pockets of the little people will influence more spending and they will spend it on products and services from businesses who are working hard to offer quality to the consumer. You can give as much tax breaks to business as you want. If the consumers are not left with enough money to buy their products it isn't going to do us any good.

 

[OrByte]

Originally posted by: Xavier434

Originally posted by: ZeroIQ

Originally posted by: Xavier434

Originally posted by: OrByte
I am not a tax expert by any means. But I don't agree with you that its the inefficiency of the tax burden that is actually worse for Americans than a direct tax increase.

I don't understand how if AMPM gets taxed $5 to sell a Big Gulp, then AMPM will pass that entire $5 tax increase down to me as a consumer. Is that increasing that big gulp price by $5? I think its more likely that if the tax burden for a corporation increases, then that corporation will POSSIBLY pass down that increase by some factor of the increase relative to whatever market demand price there is for it's product. In other words, that same Big Gulp will not have a price increase of $5 but more likely $.05.

In other words. IMHO its the very inefficiency in any tax increase passed to Businesses that protects Americans from having to dig deeper into their wallets wherein the alternative would be to pay for a direct tax increase.

I'm no expert, but I don't see the price of my Big Gulp increasing by a 1to1 factor related to any tax increase.

Not to mention that the tax breaks for businesses are not creating nearly as many jobs these days as they used to. There is so much work going overseas it is ridiculous.

I would blame that on a) some unions; and b) a country with a lower or no corporate taxes. It's stupid business decision to keep a company in the US when they can send it outside, be taxes much less, price their goods lower and sell more, which brings more profit. This also affects their stock prices and helps the US economy, albeit much less than if the company was actually in the US.

This is why the merits of the FairTax should be fairly discussed, but please, lets not turn this into a FairTax debate.

Some unions are partially to blame and we cannot control what other countries do so there is no benefit from pointing blame on them. However, the corporations are still the ones holding all of the aces. They have all the power in this situation and they are making choices which are shooting themselves in the foot in the long run. Their decision to make those extra bucks through overseas cheap labor is killing us.

The bottom line is that there are many slices to this huge complex pie and the only real answer is to achieve a balance which benefits the current state of the times the most. Right now, it is unbalanced. The little people are not seeing the kinds of benefits they should be seeing with their "investment" in business tax breaks. For the time being, the juice just isn't worth the squeeze. As I have already stated, I don't believe the opposite end of the spectrum is very productive either but we cannot do this forever. The little people have a lot less money in their pockets even though the theory of business tax breaks suggests otherwise. Jobs are disappearing everywhere. Growth is practically unheard of. Too many people are not spending their money because they really don't have any to spend.
Balancing the equation more by putting more money in the pockets of the little people will influence more spending and they will spend it on products and services from businesses who are working hard to offer quality to the consumer. You can give as much tax breaks to business as you want. If the consumers are not left with enough money to buy their products it isn't going to do us any good.

I agree with this. If what we really have to choose in this election, is essentially the difference between the two economic philosophies, the fact that we have had one economic philosophy in charge for 8 years seems to beg a change to the opposite philosophy for the next administration.

Sort of like the same argument when applied to control of congress.

 

[soundforbjt]

Originally posted by: Whoozyerdaddy

Originally posted by: HomerJS
She put down community organizers in that smug sarcastic tone. Look up the history of COs and you will see some notables. One outstanding one Martin Luther King Jr.

Text

I think we can all agree that BHO is no MLK. Not even close.

And I think we can agree that Palin is no Hillary Clinton or female Reagan either.

 

[lupi]

At 19 I was manager of a store that took in about 1.2 million annually. Guess that makes me presedential material for my organizing ability.

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: lupi
At 19 I was manager of a store that took in about 1.2 million annually. Guess that makes me presedential material for my organizing ability.

When I was in the navy I gave more orders to military men than Palin did. Sign me up for VP!

 

[pstylesss]

Originally posted by: Stoneburner

Originally posted by: ZeroIQ

Originally posted by: OrByte

Originally posted by: Stoneburner

Originally posted by: OrByte
I couldn't believe the rhetoric that Palin was speaking last night about Obama's tax plan.

According to her speech last night everyone is going to get a tax increase under Obama's plan.

That was simply a lie. I am happy to hear that these lies are being noticed.

And it should not go ignored.

It's sad to see the GOP lying to America on such a big important stage.

YOu missed how she phrased it! SHe never specifically said their taxes would be raised, she said, "Would a tax increase help them?" IT was very weasely and stupid and disingenuous! But funny! Think about it, she did what BUsh did to link Iraq and Al Qaeda.

That was the most pathetic part of her speech.

I'm backing off of saying she LIED. She said what she had to say very artfully.

I guess I heard what I thought I heard. That Obama will raise taxes on practially everyone. And based upon that in and of itself, she got the message across that she wanted to. Lie or not.

It wasn't a lie. It's called embed taxation. It's in everything we buy. Corporate taxes are passed down to the consumer. You increase those taxes, the embed taxes are increased and we viola, we are all taxed at a higher margin. She didn't even come close to lie, only outed what the Ds are always trying to hide.

Although, that is the beauty of Obama's plan, what people don't see isn't actually there... right?

PAY NO ATTENTION TO THE MAN BEHIND THE CURTAIN!

She did lie through misleading, just like good old bush

Artfully my ass, that was weasely and childish.


And ZeroIQ, why do you assume taxes are passed down? When in the regular chain of commerce extra costs are passed down, that's adjusted for the market. But passing down personal income tax to customers? Where did you pull that out of?

Corporate taxes are passed down to consumers... I never said personal income tax was passed down. I'm sure it does have an affect on how much people invest in the stock market, although the capital gains tax has a much higher affect on people everywhere investing in stocks, which has a great affect on our economy.

 

[Druidx]

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: lupi
At 19 I was manager of a store that took in about 1.2 million annually. Guess that makes me presedential material for my organizing ability.

When I was in the navy I gave more orders to military men than Palin did. Sign me up for VP!

Yea but what kind of orders where you giving???
Never mind, don't ask dont' tell.
:laugh: