Sex, dating, marriage, and the bible

[Corbett]

Originally posted by: SagaLore

Originally posted by: Spartan Niner
Any such proposal could not be based on scripture, because scripture expressly forbids fornication as a rule and also forbids it in principle.

Show us where. If its expressly forbidden, then it will be a clear statement. Please provide a sample of verses from the same chapter.

So you can claim they are "out of context" or "not actually discussing fornication"?

You've obviously already justified it in your mind so I doubt there is any way to convince you otherwise. I would suggest taking this debate up with your pastor if you really truely want to find an answer to this question.

 

[SagaLore]

Originally posted by: thecoolnessrune
John 1:1-2

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

The same was in the beginning with God.

If you choose to detract any part of the Bible because it is not directly spoken by God, then you are denouncing the teachings of the entire Bible.

2 Timothy 3:16-17

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Be careful with your first statement. You'll then have to tell us which bible to go by, because the Protestant bible and Catholic bible are not exactly the same. Which translation, which interpretation, etc. But I need to ask - what does that verse have to do with the bible itself? Are you thinking that because it has "Word" in it, that its referring to the bible since so many christians call the bible the word?

I like your 2nd verse. Especially the part about reproof and correction. Which was the purpose of this thread so long ago.

 

[manowar821]

Looking in the bible for advise on anything is like searching your toilet for sustenance.

Please, don't get uppity, either. I meant that with all my heart, I'm not trolling.

 

[hans030390]

I think it'd be a good thing to bring back the question: What exactly is "marriage"? (brought up earlier with the whole Adam/Eve thing)

Is marriage a ceremony? A legal thing? A commitment between two people?

Similar to the Adam/Eve argument, what if two "innocent" people were (for some reason) stuck on an island and could not leave? They fall in love, but have no church or any legal way to get "married". Would it necessarily be a sin to have sex because they "aren't married", or is it more about some personal commitment and what's in your heart?

Similarly, Adam and Eve couldn't get "married" in the way we think of it. Nothing legal, nothing in a church...it was just between them and God.

So, I think it's quite possible to argue that pre-marital sex is not necessarily a sin, if you think that not all "marriages" have been legal or been in a church (or something similar). I don't think you could take that too loosely, though. I still think it would be best to have sex with just one person...and you'd both have to be very committed and actually love each other...basically being married, just without the legal/church part of it.

I'm just not completely sure the church/legal part of "marriage" is completely required. It's likely best, though.

 

[SagaLore]

Originally posted by: Corbett

Originally posted by: SagaLore

Originally posted by: Spartan Niner
Any such proposal could not be based on scripture, because scripture expressly forbids fornication as a rule and also forbids it in principle.

Show us where. If its expressly forbidden, then it will be a clear statement. Please provide a sample of verses from the same chapter.

So you can claim they are "out of context" or "not actually discussing fornication"?

You've obviously already justified it in your mind so I doubt there is any way to convince you otherwise. I would suggest taking this debate up with your pastor if you really truely want to find an answer to this question.

If you can't show us, then you've lost the argument. Jesus preached to common people - if it takes a priest or a pastor to understand, then we've waaaay overcomplicated his teachings.

 

[meltdown75]

Originally posted by: manowar821
Looking in the bible for advise on anything is like searching your toilet for sustenance.

Please, don't get uppity, either. I meant that with all my heart, I'm not trolling.

"advice"

 

[manowar821]

Originally posted by: meltdown75

Originally posted by: manowar821
Looking in the bible for advise on anything is like searching your toilet for sustenance.

Please, don't get uppity, either. I meant that with all my heart, I'm not trolling.

"advice"

whoops, forgot my hat!

 

[meltdown75]

Originally posted by: manowar821

Originally posted by: meltdown75

Originally posted by: manowar821
Looking in the bible for advise on anything is like searching your toilet for sustenance.

Please, don't get uppity, either. I meant that with all my heart, I'm not trolling.

"advice"

whoops, forgot my hat!

you certainly didn't forget your asshat though. :thumbsup:

 

[manowar821]

Originally posted by: meltdown75

Originally posted by: manowar821

Originally posted by: meltdown75

Originally posted by: manowar821
Looking in the bible for advise on anything is like searching your toilet for sustenance.

Please, don't get uppity, either. I meant that with all my heart, I'm not trolling.

"advice"

whoops, forgot my hat!

you certainly didn't forget your asshat though. :thumbsup:

I was being funny.

 

[alkemyst]

most kings were not married to all the women they were with in their court...

oh yeah the christians make exceptions for their kings.

 

[Corbett]

Originally posted by: SagaLore
If you can't show us, then you've lost the argument. Jesus preached to common people - if it takes a priest or a pastor to understand, then we've waaaay overcomplicated his teachings.

I'm not arguing though. You missed my original point that you have already obviously made up your mind on the matter. Doesnt mater what anyone says.

 

[alkemyst]

Originally posted by: Corbett

Originally posted by: SagaLore
If you can't show us, then you've lost the argument. Jesus preached to common people - if it takes a priest or a pastor to understand, then we've waaaay overcomplicated his teachings.

I'm not arguing though. You missed my original point that you have already obviously made up your mind on the matter. Doesnt mater what anyone says.

Can't use the 'show us' argument with religion unless you can bring God or Jesus to the table to hash it out.

 

[thepd7]

Originally posted by: SagaLore

Originally posted by: Corbett

Originally posted by: SagaLore

Originally posted by: Spartan Niner
Any such proposal could not be based on scripture, because scripture expressly forbids fornication as a rule and also forbids it in principle.

Show us where. If its expressly forbidden, then it will be a clear statement. Please provide a sample of verses from the same chapter.

So you can claim they are "out of context" or "not actually discussing fornication"?

You've obviously already justified it in your mind so I doubt there is any way to convince you otherwise. I would suggest taking this debate up with your pastor if you really truely want to find an answer to this question.

If you can't show us, then you've lost the argument. Jesus preached to common people - if it takes a priest or a pastor to understand, then we've waaaay overcomplicated his teachings.

haha, really? Jesus used parables and stories that even the Pharises (most learned religious scholars of their time) couldn't understand. Ever notice how He eventually had to explain almost every parable He preached?

Now if you want scripture backed opinions that's fine but don't go saying Jesus was easy to understand (and don't even get me started on Paul).

Originally posted by: alkemyst
most kings were not married to all the women they were with in their court...

oh yeah the christians make exceptions for their kings.

No one is making any exceptions for kings.

David - Committed adultery then had her husband killed.
Result: He was not allowed to build the Lord's temple and his son died.

Solomon - had hundreds of wives and concubines
Result: He was led to believing in their gods and his later years were horrible for him personally and the people of Israel.

Etc, Etc, Etc. There are some cases in which multiple wives had no effect on the man (that we saw at least) but there are more when men were caught up in lust and were punished for it.

 

[elmer92413]

Ok, I didn't read all of this, but I did a quick search to see if anybody had mentioned it. But here's the end all of ends:
Matt 22:39
"...This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'"

Now if I'm going to love my neighbor as I love myself...

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: SagaLore
Many passages in the bible do a pretty good job at letting us know sex before marriage is wrong (by christian moral perspective). There is also a lot against any sexual acts - even simply lusting for someone but not touching is considered sin.

SO - I invite my fellow christian folk and agnostics whom are biblically literate, to put together a scripture based proposal that sexual activity before marriage is actually okay.

Why? Because in the past dancing with anyone of the opposite sex was considered immoral, but now many churches consider it okay as long as it isn't promiscuous. Shrimp and pork was bad at one time, but we eat it now without thinking twice. So lets revisit this topic from a fresh perspective.

Do NOT start a flame war in this thread. Do NOT contribute ANYTHING unless it is well thought out and backed up by scripture. Do NOT goof off and make immature jokes.

Ready... go!

Actually, this is totally wrong. Sexual Intercourse is Marriage. At least originally. The New Testament diverges from the early Old Testament.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Human beings are born with an innate sexuality that is there for a reason, now "commiting a sin" in this case actually releases a lot of good chemicals into your body, it is healthy, perhaps the healthiest thing you can ever do so comparing it to cocaine use or something like that is just daft.

Once we get rid of religion, we can progress faster... Man of today has almost nothing in common with man 2000-4000 years ago anyway so following rules from that era is kinda daft too, i mean, do you abide by every law written or do you just condemn certain actions because you can't get some?

 

[alkemyst]

Originally posted by: elmer92413
Ok, I didn't read all of this, but I did a quick search to see if anybody had mentioned it. But here's the end all of ends:
Matt 22:39
"...This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'"

Now if I'm going to love my neighbor as I love myself...

first circle jerk?

 

[alkemyst]

Originally posted by: thepd7

Originally posted by: SagaLore

Originally posted by: Corbett

Originally posted by: SagaLore

Originally posted by: Spartan Niner
Any such proposal could not be based on scripture, because scripture expressly forbids fornication as a rule and also forbids it in principle.

Show us where. If its expressly forbidden, then it will be a clear statement. Please provide a sample of verses from the same chapter.

So you can claim they are "out of context" or "not actually discussing fornication"?

You've obviously already justified it in your mind so I doubt there is any way to convince you otherwise. I would suggest taking this debate up with your pastor if you really truely want to find an answer to this question.

If you can't show us, then you've lost the argument. Jesus preached to common people - if it takes a priest or a pastor to understand, then we've waaaay overcomplicated his teachings.

haha, really? Jesus used parables and stories that even the Pharises (most learned religious scholars of their time) couldn't understand. Ever notice how He eventually had to explain almost every parable He preached?

Now if you want scripture backed opinions that's fine but don't go saying Jesus was easy to understand (and don't even get me started on Paul).

Originally posted by: alkemyst
most kings were not married to all the women they were with in their court...

oh yeah the christians make exceptions for their kings.

No one is making any exceptions for kings.

David - Committed adultery then had her husband killed.
Result: He was not allowed to build the Lord's temple and his son died.

Solomon - had hundreds of wives and concubines
Result: He was led to believing in their gods and his later years were horrible for him personally and the people of Israel.

Etc, Etc, Etc. There are some cases in which multiple wives had no effect on the man (that we saw at least) but there are more when men were caught up in lust and were punished for it.

That was two small examples. Concubines are mentioned throughout the bible though. I was not referring to wives or murder though. Also the bible is pretty specific that most of it's adultery is a man seducing a married woman and not a married man hooking up.

One would have to avoid the KJV probably in looking at this.

 

[IronWing]

Jesus said "Suffer little children."



What? He wasn't talking about sex?

 

[alkemyst]

Originally posted by: ironwing
Jesus said "Suffer little children."



What? He wasn't talking about sex?

This was quoted at the Neverland Ranch about 20AD.

 

[thepd7]

Originally posted by: alkemyst

That was two small examples. Concubines are mentioned throughout the bible though. I was not referring to wives or murder though. Also the bible is pretty specific that most of it's adultery is a man seducing a married woman and not a married man hooking up.

One would have to avoid the KJV probably in looking at this.

Correct, concubines are mentioned a lot. And where they are you normally see that King's lust be his fall, like with David and Solomon (who had hundreds of concubines).

Yes there was an accepted social standard that married men could have concubines (powerful ones at least). That never means it was condoned by God. If you are saying such back it up with some scripture or at least specific examples. I haven't read the entire Bible, maybe you can enlighten me.

Ex: the people closest to God had no mention of concubines: Isaiah, Moses, and Abraham. Abraham had 2 wives because his original one forced him to take a servant to have a son, God didn't like his lack of faith. Not sure if Moses had multiple wives, and I don't recall any mention of Isaiah being married.

valid point on KJV, I never use KJV anyways though.

 

[alkemyst]

Originally posted by: SagaLore
<blockquote>quote:
Originally posted by: IcebergSlim
<blockquote>quote:
Originally posted by: piasabird
The Bible has not changed much in the last 2,000 years. I say this based on the Dead Sea Scrolls and their translation, so your argument that the Bible has changed over time is not valid. There may be a few places where the wording is slightly different but the general message has not been altered.

What good can come from pre-marital sex?
Herpes
Aids
Every other STD.
Children you are not prepared for
Boyfriend running off

If this is what you want go for it.</blockquote>

Have you tried it or are you just knocking something you have no experience with?</blockquote>

In his defense, I have not tried cocaine but I have no problem knocking it. Can't really use the argument you're not allowed to have an opinion unless you've experienced it first hand.

how does that make post-marital sex any different. Everything can still happen on the list given.

I think people say these things to justify their own lack of lives. There are some people no one would hit.

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: thepd7

Originally posted by: alkemyst

That was two small examples. Concubines are mentioned throughout the bible though. I was not referring to wives or murder though. Also the bible is pretty specific that most of it's adultery is a man seducing a married woman and not a married man hooking up.

One would have to avoid the KJV probably in looking at this.

Correct, concubines are mentioned a lot. And where they are you normally see that King's lust be his fall, like with David and Solomon (who had hundreds of concubines).

Yes there was an accepted social standard that married men could have concubines (powerful ones at least). That never means it was condoned by God. If you are saying such back it up with some scripture or at least specific examples. I haven't read the entire Bible, maybe you can enlighten me.

Ex: the people closest to God had no mention of concubines: Isaiah, Moses, and Abraham. Abraham had 2 wives because his original one forced him to take a servant to have a son, God didn't like his lack of faith. Not sure if Moses had multiple wives, and I don't recall any mention of Isaiah being married.

valid point on KJV, I never use KJV anyways though.

"God's" silence on the subject seems to show It condoned it. Like King David's situation, "God" said nothing until David sent a Man to death in order to get his Wife.

These types of things in the Bible are huge Tells to the Truth. That is, there is *no* "God", there is only an inner core of Humans perpetuating the "God' Myth for their own purposes.

 

[thepd7]

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: thepd7

Originally posted by: alkemyst

That was two small examples. Concubines are mentioned throughout the bible though. I was not referring to wives or murder though. Also the bible is pretty specific that most of it's adultery is a man seducing a married woman and not a married man hooking up.

One would have to avoid the KJV probably in looking at this.

Correct, concubines are mentioned a lot. And where they are you normally see that King's lust be his fall, like with David and Solomon (who had hundreds of concubines).

Yes there was an accepted social standard that married men could have concubines (powerful ones at least). That never means it was condoned by God. If you are saying such back it up with some scripture or at least specific examples. I haven't read the entire Bible, maybe you can enlighten me.

Ex: the people closest to God had no mention of concubines: Isaiah, Moses, and Abraham. Abraham had 2 wives because his original one forced him to take a servant to have a son, God didn't like his lack of faith. Not sure if Moses had multiple wives, and I don't recall any mention of Isaiah being married.

valid point on KJV, I never use KJV anyways though.

"God's" silence on the subject seems to show It condoned it. Like King David's situation, "God" said nothing until David sent a Man to death in order to get his Wife.

These types of things in the Bible are huge Tells to the Truth. That is, there is *no* "God", there is only an inner core of Humans perpetuating the "God' Myth for their own purposes.

I am confused as to what you are doing here. You are telling me there is no God while debating with me about the Word of God. This thread is not about how idiotic us Christians are or whether God exists. It is about scripture based arguments relating to dating and relationships. If you don't believe in scripture you are welcome to observe but I really doubt you will be contributing in a manner which is productive to the thread.

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: thepd7

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: thepd7

Originally posted by: alkemyst

That was two small examples. Concubines are mentioned throughout the bible though. I was not referring to wives or murder though. Also the bible is pretty specific that most of it's adultery is a man seducing a married woman and not a married man hooking up.

One would have to avoid the KJV probably in looking at this.

Correct, concubines are mentioned a lot. And where they are you normally see that King's lust be his fall, like with David and Solomon (who had hundreds of concubines).

Yes there was an accepted social standard that married men could have concubines (powerful ones at least). That never means it was condoned by God. If you are saying such back it up with some scripture or at least specific examples. I haven't read the entire Bible, maybe you can enlighten me.

Ex: the people closest to God had no mention of concubines: Isaiah, Moses, and Abraham. Abraham had 2 wives because his original one forced him to take a servant to have a son, God didn't like his lack of faith. Not sure if Moses had multiple wives, and I don't recall any mention of Isaiah being married.

valid point on KJV, I never use KJV anyways though.

"God's" silence on the subject seems to show It condoned it. Like King David's situation, "God" said nothing until David sent a Man to death in order to get his Wife.

These types of things in the Bible are huge Tells to the Truth. That is, there is *no* "God", there is only an inner core of Humans perpetuating the "God' Myth for their own purposes.

I am confused as to what you are doing here. You are telling me there is no God while debating with me about the Word of God. This thread is not about how idiotic us Christians are or whether God exists. It is about scripture based arguments relating to dating and relationships. If you don't believe in scripture you are welcome to observe but I really doubt you will be contributing in a manner which is productive to the thread.

Just saying is all. The Bible requires some salt an what is acceptable or unacceptable really depends on which parts you read.