Sex, dating, marriage, and the bible

[thepd7]

Originally posted by: rockyct

Originally posted by: SagaLore

Originally posted by: rockyct
I agree that there is a much larger context and I generally agree, but you're missing the even larger point. The "context" starting at verse 17 and going through the end of the chapter is that Jesus' purpose is to fulfill the law and then he uses some examples of where the law basically fails to capture what God intended. Not murdering people isn't enough. Not committing adultery isn't enough. If your heart is filled with hatred or lust, it is not right before God. Him saying to cut off your hand or gouge out your eye shows that something must be done to stop the sin inside your heart and he uses some OT imagery to hi-light that sin in your heart is no less dangerous than external sin.

Which is fine, and I agree, but this is getting off topic of what this thread is for.

except that lust is dangerous and when you are involved in "heavy petting", I don't think anyone would truely believe that it is not lustful

You are absolutely correct, your post IS the topic.

If you are engaging in heavy petting you have got to be thinking impure thoughts, which is not righteous or godly. Therefore there is NO way to justify heavy petting before marraige. The same is with pornography, and some people don't even make out heavily before they get married because that only leads to petting.

It is lust and giving in to lust, both of which are wrong in God's eyes.


edit: Oh and OP the reason dancing wasn't allowed was for the same reason, people believed it led to lustful thinking and impure thoughts. While I agree that there is plenty of dancing that doesn't I would say the majority of dancing in clubs today is people trying to have sex with their clothes on, so there is a lot of dancing that I would still consider immoral if you follow God's standards for life (the Bible).
And the shrimp and pork thing is OK because Jesus said so in the new testament.

Good post and good points though.

 

[compuwiz1]

Do you really think God would let someone look so beautiful, if it was not meant to look at?

My advice:

If it feels good, do it!

 

[JS80]

Originally posted by: rockyct
Sex and eating pork are two different things, although they do overlap in some ways. In Acts 10:9-16, Peter sees a vision with a whole bunch of animals that were considered "unclean" and a voice specifically says that "Do not call anything impure that God has made clean." There's also a whole bunch of teachings in 1 Cor about food being clean as long as you believe it to be clean and if you eating it does not cause others to stumble.

Now, actions outside of sex are kind of the same way, but more loosely defined. For some, even non-suggestive dancing can lead to lust, but that is not the case for most people. It all depends on where you want to draw your line to keep you away from sin. However, the line itself is not the law, it's only where your heart can lead if you cross it. Some groups have made the line the law and kept it as far away from sex as it could be. Holding hands, dancing, kissing, or even just a man talking to an unmarried woman. Those became sinful, when in fact they are not directly sins. However, "Heavy petting" is lust, plain and simple. Is it sex? No, but don't say that you weren't thinking about it.

Matt 5:17 "You have heard that it is said, 'Do not commit adultery.' But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart." That's Jesus saying this, not Paul, so the issue is pretty clear.

Ultimately, the Bible paints a very clear picture of what God intends sex to be. It is an action that God intended to spiritually join two people together.

1 Cor 6:15 "Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ himself? Shall I then take the members of Christ and unite them with a prostitute? Never! Do you not know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is said, 'The two will become one flesh.' (Gen 2:24) But he who unites himself with the Lord is one with him in spirit. Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body. Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body."

When studying the Bible, you need to do it in an inductive way, not a deductive way. The Bible does not literally say, "don't have sex before marriage," but it is something that you see is true if you honestly look for it. The other end of the scale is taking what your pastor or parents say is God's word without actually studying it for yourself. It's only when you study it yourself, do you see God's true purpose for sex and it creates a much deeper desire in you to honor that purpose. Believing that premarital sex is bad because you were told that does not give you a desire to believe it and can easily be brushed aside in the moment.

What if you wear a condom? then technically your flesh doesn't become one.

 

[scootermaster]

Wow.

That must suck to have a god that thinks it's bad to hump people before marriage.

Weirdly, my god thinks it's okay. I think he's got a slot or two open, if anyone wants to convert. I mean, some of you should spend less time upgrading your video cards and more time upgrading your deities!

 

[hellokeith]

1 Timothy 5
1Do not rebuke an older man harshly, but exhort him as if he were your father. Treat younger men as brothers, 2older women as mothers, and younger women as sisters, with absolute purity.

I like Dr. Laura's saying "If you get the milk for free, why buy the cow?". Women would do wise to close their legs and open their eyes more often, to see the vast majority of men just want sex and little else. And men would do wise to treat potential mates with 1000% more respect, such that you actually get to know the girl well enough to realize that she might not be such a good girlfriend/wife.

 

[moshquerade]

"You and me baby we ain't nothing but mammals"

that's in the animal bible. the one i follow.

 

[DaShen]

Originally posted by: HotChic

Originally posted by: SagaLore

Originally posted by: HotChic
1 Cor 7:9 But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.

This isn't direct enough. As you mentioned out of context - I've read some very "puritan" arguments that even kissing is wrong, based on verses like that one. Also, if you look at the rest of the verses surrounding this - Paul is big on abstinence the rest of your life. But every time the disciples brought this up, Jesus argued against it. Even after Jesus died, rose, and ascended, the disciples still had a tendency to throw in their own unfounded two cents.

Paul does encourage abstinence, true. But he also says this:
3The husband should fulfill his marital duty to his wife, and likewise the wife to her husband. 4The wife's body does not belong to her alone but also to her husband. In the same way, the husband's body does not belong to him alone but also to his wife. 5Do not deprive each other except by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.

In other words, get it on!

Exactly... Once you are married, if the activity doesn't degrade the person as a person "in God's image", then it is something that should be enjoyed.

Songs of Solomon can get pretty graphic actually.

 

[DaShen]

Originally posted by: Eli

Originally posted by: rockyct
Sex and eating pork are two different things, although they do overlap in some ways.

:laugh::laugh:

OMFG, that is sig material.

EWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWwwwwwww....

 

[DaShen]

Originally posted by: hellokeith

1 Timothy 5
1Do not rebuke an older man harshly, but exhort him as if he were your father. Treat younger men as brothers, 2older women as mothers, and younger women as sisters, with absolute purity.

I like Dr. Laura's saying "If you get the milk for free, why buy the cow?". Women would do wise to close their legs and open their eyes more often, to see the vast majority of men just want sex and little else. And men would do wise to treat potential mates with 1000% more respect, such that you actually get to know the girl well enough to realize that she might not be such a good girlfriend/wife.

1 Timothy 5:1-2 is one of the precepts that I try to follow in my friendships and relationships. It is very hard to follow sometimes, and I mess up sometimes.

 

[sao123]

Originally posted by: engineereeyore
Um, how about one of the first commands given.

Gen. 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

Other than that, you have the early Jewish law that required that if a man dies his brother (if single) is required to marry his brother's wife and provide her with seed.

Now granted, most Biblical passages revolve around procreation as opposed to simple sex, but you can't have one without the other.

Deut 25:
5 If brothers are living together and one of them dies without a son, his widow must not marry outside the family. Her husband's brother shall take her and marry her and fulfill the duty of a brother-in-law to her. 6 The first son she bears shall carry on the name of the dead brother so that his name will not be blotted out from Israel.

7 However, if a man does not want to marry his brother's wife, she shall go to the elders at the town gate and say, "My husband's brother refuses to carry on his brother's name in Israel. He will not fulfill the duty of a brother-in-law to me." 8 Then the elders of his town shall summon him and talk to him. If he persists in saying, "I do not want to marry her," 9 his brother's widow shall go up to him in the presence of the elders, take off one of his sandals, spit in his face and say, "This is what is done to the man who will not build up his brother's family line." 10 That man's line shall be known in Israel as The Family of the Unsandaled.

Monogamy wasnt required until the new testament.

 

[sao123]

Originally posted by: SagaLore
Many passages in the bible do a pretty good job at letting us know sex before marriage is wrong (by christian moral perspective). There is also a lot against any sexual acts - even simply lusting for someone but not touching is considered sin.

SO - I invite my fellow christian folk and agnostics whom are biblically literate, to put together a scripture based proposal that sexual activity before marriage is actually okay.

Why? Because in the past dancing with anyone of the opposite sex was considered immoral, but now many churches consider it okay as long as it isn't promiscuous. Shrimp and pork was bad at one time, but we eat it now without thinking twice. So lets revisit this topic from a fresh perspective.

Do NOT start a flame war in this thread. Do NOT contribute ANYTHING unless it is well thought out and backed up by scripture. Do NOT goof off and make immature jokes.

Ready... go!

I know most people discount the entire old testament as either "only pertaining to the Jews" or barbaric and outdated, but I do think it has some relevance.

Deuteronomy 22

13 If a man takes a wife and, after lying with her, dislikes her 14 and slanders her and gives her a bad name, saying, "I married this woman, but when I approached her, I did not find proof of her virginity," 15 then the girl's father and mother shall bring proof that she was a virgin to the town elders at the gate. 16 The girl's father will say to the elders, "I gave my daughter in marriage to this man, but he dislikes her. 17 Now he has slandered her and said, 'I did not find your daughter to be a virgin.' But here is the proof of my daughter's virginity." Then her parents shall display the cloth before the elders of the town, 18 and the elders shall take the man and punish him. 19 They shall fine him a hundred shekels of silver and give them to the girl's father, because this man has given an Israelite virgin a bad name. She shall continue to be his wife; he must not divorce her as long as he lives.
20 If, however, the charge is true and no proof of the girl's virginity can be found, 21 she shall be brought to the door of her father's house and there the men of her town shall stone her to death. She has done a disgraceful thing in Israel by being promiscuous while still in her father's house. You must purge the evil from among you.

22 If a man is found sleeping with another man's wife, both the man who slept with her and the woman must die. You must purge the evil from Israel.

23 If a man happens to meet in a town a virgin pledged to be married and he sleeps with her, 24 you shall take both of them to the gate of that town and stone them to death?the girl because she was in a town and did not scream for help, and the man because he violated another man's wife. You must purge the evil from among you.

25 But if out in the country a man happens to meet a girl pledged to be married and rapes her, only the man who has done this shall die. 26 Do nothing to the girl; she has committed no sin deserving death. This case is like that of someone who attacks and murders his neighbor, 27 for the man found the girl out in the country, and though the betrothed girl screamed, there was no one to rescue her.

28 If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, 29 he shall pay the girl's father fifty shekels of silver. [c] He must marry the girl, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.

Exodus 22

16 "If a man seduces a virgin who is not pledged to be married and sleeps with her, he must pay the bride-price, and she shall be his wife. 17 If her father absolutely refuses to give her to him, he must still pay the bride-price for virgins.

 

[SagaLore]

Originally posted by: DaShen
Songs of Solomon can get pretty graphic actually.

Yep. And they weren't actually married yet, were they?

 

[AreaCode707]

Originally posted by: SagaLore

Originally posted by: DaShen
Songs of Solomon can get pretty graphic actually.

Yep. And they weren't actually married yet, were they?

Heh, you're talking about the guy with 300 wives and 700 concubines. It makes ATOT's obsession with two chicks at once look paltry.

 

[angminas]

Looking for things in the Bible so you can make things look a particular way is completely against the entire purpose of the book, unless you're doing it to show how somebody else's doing it is foolish. (Proverbs 18:2) Haven't you seen enough people misuse scripture yet? (2Cor11:12-15) Will you follow the example of unwise men rather than righteous men? (Proverbs 12:26) Don't you have more respect for God than to use his gift in this manner? (Proverbs 3:5-7, 24:9)

As you already seem to know, there are plenty of places in the Bible that say sexual activity before marriage is NOT okay. Will you ignore those clear warnings, and invite other Christians to join you? You're playing with fire. (Matthew 5:19) If you really are a Christian, you are being tempted. "Therefore submit to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you." (James 4:7)

For anyone who actually wants to learn more about what the Bible has to say on the subject, here is a very well-written article on my church's website.

 

[sao123]

Originally posted by: angminas
Looking for things in the Bible so you can make things look a particular way is completely against the entire purpose of the book, unless you're doing it to show how somebody else's doing it is foolish. (Proverbs 18:2) Haven't you seen enough people misuse scripture yet? (2Cor11:12-15) Will you follow the example of unwise men rather than righteous men? (Proverbs 12:26) Don't you have more respect for God than to use his gift in this manner? (Proverbs 3:5-7, 24:9)

As you already seem to know, there are plenty of places in the Bible that say sexual activity before marriage is NOT okay. Will you ignore those clear warnings, and invite other Christians to join you? You're playing with fire. (Matthew 5:19) If you really are a Christian, you are being tempted. "Therefore submit to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you." (James 4:7)

For anyone who actually wants to learn more about what the Bible has to say on the subject, here is a very well-written article on my church's website.

WOW... um... err...
I personally think it is good to not have sex before marriage... but um...
your church believes that holding hands, hugging, and kissing will all lead to definate pre-marital sexual activity??? I completely disagree with your church on this subject.

 

[SagaLore]

Originally posted by: angminas
Looking for things in the Bible so you can make things look a particular way is completely against the entire purpose of the book, unless you're doing it to show how somebody else's doing it is foolish. (Proverbs 18:2) Haven't you seen enough people misuse scripture yet? (2Cor11:12-15) Will you follow the example of unwise men rather than righteous men? (Proverbs 12:26) Don't you have more respect for God than to use his gift in this manner? (Proverbs 3:5-7, 24:9)

As you already seem to know, there are plenty of places in the Bible that say sexual activity before marriage is NOT okay. Will you ignore those clear warnings, and invite other Christians to join you? You're playing with fire. (Matthew 5:19) If you really are a Christian, you are being tempted. "Therefore submit to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you." (James 4:7)

For anyone who actually wants to learn more about what the Bible has to say on the subject, here is a very well-written article on my church's website.

I invite you to put together a solid argument using scripture in its proper context. The verse needs to be direct about what activity is acceptable, and it needs to be spoken by Jesus.

 

[IceBergSLiM]

the bible was re-written and re-translated so many times it is purely fiction at this point. its not meant to be taken literally.

 

[ultimatebob]

Originally posted by: SagaLore

Originally posted by: angminas
Looking for things in the Bible so you can make things look a particular way is completely against the entire purpose of the book, unless you're doing it to show how somebody else's doing it is foolish. (Proverbs 18:2) Haven't you seen enough people misuse scripture yet? (2Cor11:12-15) Will you follow the example of unwise men rather than righteous men? (Proverbs 12:26) Don't you have more respect for God than to use his gift in this manner? (Proverbs 3:5-7, 24:9)

As you already seem to know, there are plenty of places in the Bible that say sexual activity before marriage is NOT okay. Will you ignore those clear warnings, and invite other Christians to join you? You're playing with fire. (Matthew 5:19) If you really are a Christian, you are being tempted. "Therefore submit to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you." (James 4:7)

For anyone who actually wants to learn more about what the Bible has to say on the subject, here is a very well-written article on my church's website.

I invite you to put together a solid argument using scripture in its proper context. The verse needs to be direct about what activity is acceptable, and it needs to be spoken by Jesus.

Who is this argument for, anyway?

 

[Ausm]

Is "dry humping" considered heavy petting?


Ausm

 

[3chordcharlie]

Originally posted by: moshquerade
"You and me baby we ain't nothing but mammals"

that's in the animal bible. the one i follow.

Me too - can we be prayer buddies?

 

[SagaLore]

Originally posted by: ultimatebob
Who is this argument for, anyway?

Himself.

 

[alkemyst]

Also Kings were allowed to have many wifes and even then just concubines.

I don't buy alot of what the bible says was really from God and not man doing his own edits.

 

[ultimatebob]

Originally posted by: SagaLore

Originally posted by: ultimatebob
Who is this argument for, anyway?

Himself.

You SURE that you're not trying to convince your girlfriend of something?

 

[OutHouse]

see my sig. (Oral sex is not a sin)

in my opinion anything written by Paul is not worth reading. he took everyhting Jesus said and totally turned it around. i do not belive paul was a prophet nor did he get his information from the ghost of Jesus.

 

[rockyct]

Originally posted by: IcebergSlim
the bible was re-written and re-translated so many times it is purely fiction at this point. its not meant to be taken literally.

Actually, that's not the case. Every time a new translation is created, they translate it directly from the thousands of original manuscripts pieces they have, some as old as 100-200 AD. Now, there is actually a section of John that did not appear in the earliest manuscripts (John 7:53-8:11). Most Bibles will directly tell the reader like this website where verse 53 begins http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%207&version=31

With the exception of this passage, the manuscripts agree very closely to each other and the fact that there are around 6,000 Greek manuscripts, only strengthens the validity of the Bible. Disregard it if you like, but not because of translation issues.