Sex, dating, marriage, and the bible

[SagaLore]

Many passages in the bible do a pretty good job at letting us know sex before marriage is wrong (by christian moral perspective). There is also a lot against any sexual acts - even simply lusting for someone but not touching is considered sin.

SO - I invite my fellow christian folk and agnostics whom are biblically literate, to put together a scripture based proposal that sexual activity before marriage is actually okay.

Why? Because in the past dancing with anyone of the opposite sex was considered immoral, but now many churches consider it okay as long as it isn't promiscuous. Shrimp and pork was bad at one time, but we eat it now without thinking twice. So lets revisit this topic from a fresh perspective.

Do NOT start a flame war in this thread. Do NOT contribute ANYTHING unless it is well thought out and backed up by scripture. Do NOT goof off and make immature jokes.

Ready... go!

 

[AreaCode707]

Huh, this is the second time in two days this question has been asked to me, interestingly enough.

I think that you could probably extrapolate a lot from the Old Testament examples if you tried hard enough and took enough things out of context. The problem is, there's simply no wiggle room in the New Testament at all.

NT example:
1 Cor 7:9 But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.

 

[Fenixgoon]

"haevy petting" lol.. i think that term is funny

 

[91TTZ]

Do people really need a crutch that bad? It seems like people make up their mind about what they want to do, then they go about trying to justify it in the bible.

 

[SagaLore]

Originally posted by: HotChic
1 Cor 7:9 But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.

This isn't direct enough. As you mentioned out of context - I've read some very "puritan" arguments that even kissing is wrong, based on verses like that one. Also, if you look at the rest of the verses surrounding this - Paul is big on abstinence the rest of your life. But every time the disciples brought this up, Jesus argued against it. Even after Jesus died, rose, and ascended, the disciples still had a tendency to throw in their own unfounded two cents.

 

[ppdes]

Does it really matter? I know plenty of Christian girls who go all the way before marriage. Maybe they confess it later or whatever, but that certainly doesn't stop them if they want it.

 

[SagaLore]

Originally posted by: ppdes
Does it really matter? I know plenty of Christian girls who go all the way before marriage. Maybe they confess it later or whatever, but that certainly doesn't stop them if they want it.

Yea it matters.

 

[AreaCode707]

Okay, giving it a shot (and again, I think that you can only do this by really twisting the meanings and context of scripture:

John 4:16-18
16He told her, "Go, call your husband and come back."
17"I have no husband," she replied. Jesus said to her, "You are right when you say you have no husband.
18The fact is, you have had five husbands, and the man you now have is not your husband. What you have just said is quite true."
Jesus doesn't rebuke her for this, pretty much has no comment. (Missing context: Jesus used this as a segue to tell her all about herself and explain a portion of the salvation doctrine.)

John 8:4-11
4...and said to Jesus, "Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery.
5In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?"
6They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him. But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger.
7When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her."
8Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.
9At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there.
10Jesus straightened up and asked her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?"
11"No one, sir," she said. "Then neither do I condemn you," Jesus declared.
Jesus saved her, didn't condemn her, and pretty much let her walk away. (Missing context: Jesus winds up by saying "Go now and leave your life of sin.")

 

[AreaCode707]

Originally posted by: SagaLore

Originally posted by: HotChic
1 Cor 7:9 But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.

This isn't direct enough. As you mentioned out of context - I've read some very "puritan" arguments that even kissing is wrong, based on verses like that one. Also, if you look at the rest of the verses surrounding this - Paul is big on abstinence the rest of your life. But every time the disciples brought this up, Jesus argued against it. Even after Jesus died, rose, and ascended, the disciples still had a tendency to throw in their own unfounded two cents.

Paul does encourage abstinence, true. But he also says this:
3The husband should fulfill his marital duty to his wife, and likewise the wife to her husband. 4The wife's body does not belong to her alone but also to her husband. In the same way, the husband's body does not belong to him alone but also to his wife. 5Do not deprive each other except by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.

In other words, get it on!

 

[SagaLore]

Originally posted by: HotChic
In other words, get it on!

:heart:

 

[rockyct]

Sex and eating pork are two different things, although they do overlap in some ways. In Acts 10:9-16, Peter sees a vision with a whole bunch of animals that were considered "unclean" and a voice specifically says that "Do not call anything impure that God has made clean." There's also a whole bunch of teachings in 1 Cor about food being clean as long as you believe it to be clean and if you eating it does not cause others to stumble.

Now, actions outside of sex are kind of the same way, but more loosely defined. For some, even non-suggestive dancing can lead to lust, but that is not the case for most people. It all depends on where you want to draw your line to keep you away from sin. However, the line itself is not the law, it's only where your heart can lead if you cross it. Some groups have made the line the law and kept it as far away from sex as it could be. Holding hands, dancing, kissing, or even just a man talking to an unmarried woman. Those became sinful, when in fact they are not directly sins. However, "Heavy petting" is lust, plain and simple. Is it sex? No, but don't say that you weren't thinking about it.

Matt 5:17 "You have heard that it is said, 'Do not commit adultery.' But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart." That's Jesus saying this, not Paul, so the issue is pretty clear.

Ultimately, the Bible paints a very clear picture of what God intends sex to be. It is an action that God intended to spiritually join two people together.

1 Cor 6:15 "Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ himself? Shall I then take the members of Christ and unite them with a prostitute? Never! Do you not know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is said, 'The two will become one flesh.' (Gen 2:24) But he who unites himself with the Lord is one with him in spirit. Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body. Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body."

When studying the Bible, you need to do it in an inductive way, not a deductive way. The Bible does not literally say, "don't have sex before marriage," but it is something that you see is true if you honestly look for it. The other end of the scale is taking what your pastor or parents say is God's word without actually studying it for yourself. It's only when you study it yourself, do you see God's true purpose for sex and it creates a much deeper desire in you to honor that purpose. Believing that premarital sex is bad because you were told that does not give you a desire to believe it and can easily be brushed aside in the moment.

 

[Eli]

Originally posted by: rockyct
Sex and eating pork are two different things, although they do overlap in some ways.

:laugh::laugh:

OMFG, that is sig material.

 

[meltdown75]

?If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness? (1 John 1:9)

 

[silverpig]

Originally posted by: SagaLore

Originally posted by: HotChic
In other words, get it on!

:heart:

It really sounds like: "Keep each other happy so your spouse doesn't find it elsewhere."

 

[rockyct]

Originally posted by: Eli

Originally posted by: rockyct
Sex and eating pork are two different things, although they do overlap in some ways.

:laugh::laugh:

OMFG, that is sig material.

lol, I guess it really is when you separate it out like that.

 

[engineereeyore]

Um, how about one of the first commands given.

Gen. 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

Other than that, you have the early Jewish law that required that if a man dies his brother (if single) is required to marry his brother's wife and provide her with seed.

Now granted, most Biblical passages revolve around procreation as opposed to simple sex, but you can't have one without the other.

 

[SagaLore]

Originally posted by: rockyct
Matt 5:27 "You have heard that it is said, 'Do not commit adultery.' But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart." That's Jesus saying this, not Paul, so the issue is pretty clear.

This verse is taken WAY out of context. If you look at the entire passage, he is pointing out the hypocrisy of those condemning others as being sinful. Verse 30 he says, "And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away." Jesus is obviously using metaphor in this entire passage and just making a point.

 

[rockyct]

Originally posted by: SagaLore

Originally posted by: rockyct
Matt 5:27 "You have heard that it is said, 'Do not commit adultery.' But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart." That's Jesus saying this, not Paul, so the issue is pretty clear.

This verse is taken WAY out of context. If you look at the entire passage, he is pointing out the hypocrisy of those condemning others as being sinful. Verse 30 he says, "And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away." Jesus is obviously using metaphor in this entire passage and just making a point.

I agree that there is a much larger context and I generally agree, but you're missing the even larger point. The "context" starting at verse 17 and going through the end of the chapter is that Jesus' purpose is to fulfill the law and then he uses some examples of where the law basically fails to capture what God intended. Not murdering people isn't enough. Not committing adultery isn't enough. If your heart is filled with hatred or lust, it is not right before God. Him saying to cut off your hand or gouge out your eye shows that something must be done to stop the sin inside your heart and he uses some OT imagery to hi-light that sin in your heart is no less dangerous than external sin.

 

[Eli]

Originally posted by: SagaLore

Originally posted by: rockyct
Matt 5:27 "You have heard that it is said, 'Do not commit adultery.' But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart." That's Jesus saying this, not Paul, so the issue is pretty clear.

This verse is taken WAY out of context. If you look at the entire passage, he is pointing out the hypocrisy of those condemning others as being sinful. Verse 30 he says, "And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away." Jesus is obviously using metaphor in this entire passage and just making a point.

:laugh:

It actually says that in the Bible? Wow. lol

 

[SagaLore]

Originally posted by: rockyct
I agree that there is a much larger context and I generally agree, but you're missing the even larger point. The "context" starting at verse 17 and going through the end of the chapter is that Jesus' purpose is to fulfill the law and then he uses some examples of where the law basically fails to capture what God intended. Not murdering people isn't enough. Not committing adultery isn't enough. If your heart is filled with hatred or lust, it is not right before God. Him saying to cut off your hand or gouge out your eye shows that something must be done to stop the sin inside your heart and he uses some OT imagery to hi-light that sin in your heart is no less dangerous than external sin.

Which is fine, and I agree, but this is getting off topic of what this thread is for.

 

[rockyct]

Originally posted by: Eli

Originally posted by: SagaLore

Originally posted by: rockyct
Matt 5:27 "You have heard that it is said, 'Do not commit adultery.' But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart." That's Jesus saying this, not Paul, so the issue is pretty clear.

This verse is taken WAY out of context. If you look at the entire passage, he is pointing out the hypocrisy of those condemning others as being sinful. Verse 30 he says, "And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away." Jesus is obviously using metaphor in this entire passage and just making a point.

:laugh:

It actually says that in the Bible? Wow. lol

There's some pretty funky stuff in the Bible. Lot's drunken incest with his daughters being a prime example.

 

[Eli]

Originally posted by: rockyct

Originally posted by: Eli

Originally posted by: SagaLore

Originally posted by: rockyct
Matt 5:27 "You have heard that it is said, 'Do not commit adultery.' But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart." That's Jesus saying this, not Paul, so the issue is pretty clear.

This verse is taken WAY out of context. If you look at the entire passage, he is pointing out the hypocrisy of those condemning others as being sinful. Verse 30 he says, "And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away." Jesus is obviously using metaphor in this entire passage and just making a point.

:laugh:

It actually says that in the Bible? Wow. lol

There's some pretty funky stuff in the Bible. Lot's drunken incest with his daughters being a prime example.

Yeah, I just didn't know the whole "right hand" joke had been around that long.

 

[rockyct]

Originally posted by: SagaLore

Originally posted by: rockyct
I agree that there is a much larger context and I generally agree, but you're missing the even larger point. The "context" starting at verse 17 and going through the end of the chapter is that Jesus' purpose is to fulfill the law and then he uses some examples of where the law basically fails to capture what God intended. Not murdering people isn't enough. Not committing adultery isn't enough. If your heart is filled with hatred or lust, it is not right before God. Him saying to cut off your hand or gouge out your eye shows that something must be done to stop the sin inside your heart and he uses some OT imagery to hi-light that sin in your heart is no less dangerous than external sin.

Which is fine, and I agree, but this is getting off topic of what this thread is for.

except that lust is dangerous and when you are involved in "heavy petting", I don't think anyone would truely believe that it is not lustful

 

[Eli]

Why do we, as humans, feel the need to control our natural instincts? Is it simply because we need to feel in control of ourselves, or what?

Psychology is interesting.

 

[brandonbull]

It's a shame that the Bible and other religious teachings have been twisted in order for people to gain control over their fellow man.