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Serious question.

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Originally posted by: SSSnail
Originally posted by: JS80
Originally posted by: RichardE
The numbers themselves are really irrelevant. It could have been 500k or 30 million Jews. The reason is it such a *big deal* to people, or the underlying reason is because it became an industry. It wasn't just killing them, it was doing it in a mechanical, industrial, efficient manor that horrifies people. Killing 30 million Native Americans in a fight over a new land in a war is different than killing 6 million people mechanically as you use them to further your industry.

For a good film on the actual "process" of the camps, Night and Fog (1955 30minutes movie, can be graphic at parts) seems to be the best to really bring across what the camps were. They were not simply death camps, nor labor camps, but a efficient industrialized process of turning humans into a commodity. That is why people are horrified at the holocaust, it stripped people of what it means to be human.


(Side Note: Night and Fog's copyright has been dropped so its free game if you can find it).
Click to expand...

Hopefully this post will foil what the OP was trying to get at.
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Actually, no. It's funny how the winner writes history all the time and ignore all the details. The one things that saved the US genocide was the lack of media attention. How the fuck do you justify 30 mils to 6 mils as difference? Oh, they were just injuns, that's it. We're just gonna kill them to take their lands, no big deal.

What I'm trying to get at is people need to have perspective, you included. (I could say at least the Germans weren't wasteful, but that would spawn arguments).
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A better perspective was why the 36 million civilians deaths from WW2 (subtracting the 6 million camps figure) is not given more press especially since it was more than the native Americans. By your theory we should hear about that more.

Why was the 6 million people killed in camps talked about more than the 36 million civilians killed in WW2? It is discussed more because it shows the most extreme form of human degradation of where we stripped the essence of being human from 6 million people to use them as a commodity to further industry as we killed them in an industrial, factory setting. The idea of using humans as a commodity to be discarded when we felt like it is what horrified people, not the deaths.
 
Originally posted by: Crono
Originally posted by: SSSnail
Originally posted by: Crono
Not all Native Americans were "exterminated" or slaughtered like thew Jews were. War is not the same thing as genocide. I'm not saying that many Native Americans weren't murdered or slaughtered, but for you can't compare the two.
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Whose war? So they declared war on the US because they lived here? You're right, you can't compare the two, 30mils != 6mils.
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It wasn't the entire U.S. or Britain against all Native Americans. You can't speak of it collectively like it was a singular campaign, unlike Nazi Germany. What happened was territorial conflict, initially started by European settlers and predominantly started by them or Americans in later cases. Many times it was slaughter of defenseless people, but also in many instances it was war where one side hit the other, and retaliation followed.

I am not excusing the crimes of those who committed murder. My argument is that Nazi Germany initiated (and nearly completed) a calculated campaign of genocide against an entire people - a people that did not (on any large scale) or could night fight back - while the Native Americans were killed in initial territorial conquest of the Americas by different groups of people and from subsequent retaliations and conflicts. Again, I'm jot justifying what happened.
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If you really wanted to do a comparison, you would have to narrow down that 30 million figure to see exactly what happened over that span of time. Not every single Native American that died from disease or from war was a victim of hatred or greed. The 6 million Jews pretty much were, and that number is closer to being accurate for your argument.
 
Originally posted by: Turin39789
Originally posted by: SSSnail
Originally posted by: JS80
Originally posted by: RichardE
The numbers themselves are really irrelevant. It could have been 500k or 30 million Jews. The reason is it such a *big deal* to people, or the underlying reason is because it became an industry. It wasn't just killing them, it was doing it in a mechanical, industrial, efficient manor that horrifies people. Killing 30 million Native Americans in a fight over a new land in a war is different than killing 6 million people mechanically as you use them to further your industry.

For a good film on the actual "process" of the camps, Night and Fog (1955 30minutes movie, can be graphic at parts) seems to be the best to really bring across what the camps were. They were not simply death camps, nor labor camps, but a efficient industrialized process of turning humans into a commodity. That is why people are horrified at the holocaust, it stripped people of what it means to be human.


(Side Note: Night and Fog's copyright has been dropped so its free game if you can find it).
Click to expand...

Hopefully this post will foil what the OP was trying to get at.
Click to expand...

Actually, no. It's funny how the winner writes history all the time and ignore all the details. The one things that saved the US genocide was the lack of media attention. How the fuck do you justify 30 mils to 6 mils as difference? Oh, they were just injuns, that's it. We're just gonna kill them to take their lands, no big deal.

What I'm trying to get at is people need to have perspective, you included. (I could say at least the Germans weren't wasteful, but that would spawn arguments).
Click to expand...

Ssnail lulz
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lulz indeed. SSSnail, why do you hate the joos?
 
Originally posted by: SSSnail
Whose war? So they declared war on the US because they lived here? You're right, you can't compare the two, 30mils != 6mils.
Click to expand...

American Indian Nations most definitly did declare war aginst the United States, on a number of occasions. Overall the war with the Indian Nations was a war for land, and everyone on that land was a combatant.

The American Indian Nations were often treated like a foreign nation, and other countries made treaties with them, often setting them to war against the new United States. Brittan did this on a number of occasions.
One of the biggest death tolls the NA nations took was actually during the American Revolutionary War when the tribes divided and fought on both sides of the war, often aginst each other.
 
Originally posted by: SSSnail
How many Jews were exterminated during WWII compares to how many Native Americans that suffered the same fate? Does anybody have a solid number?
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I am not sure if any indians were in Germany at that time.
 
Originally posted by: AreaCode707
I think a per year calculation would be more interesting and less hyperbolic than what you are asking.

6 million Jews in 6 years via imprisonment and gas chamber shows intent.
30 million Native Americans over 300 years, many of inadvertent disease, has a different anthropological meaning and should produce a different moral judgment.

(Numbers and times are made up based on what other answers in this thread were.)

Not saying there weren't horrible people doing horrible things to Native Americans but on the whole you cannot fairly compare the Europeans taking over the Americas (from many different countries with many different intents) with the Nazis (a single small group of people who primarily intended extermination of certain people groups.)
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Yeah, SSSnail seems to be missing the point. The vast majority of Native Americans died from disease, not because they got shot by the English, French, or Spanish colonials. And, while it's true that there are isolated incidents of trying to use disease as a weapon against NAs (take Lord Jeffery Amherst as an example), the vast majority of disease-related deaths were simply from germs that migrated from Europeans to Native Americans by accident.
 
Originally posted by: RichardE
The numbers themselves are really irrelevant. It could have been 500k or 30 million Jews. The reason is it such a *big deal* to people, or the underlying reason is because it became an industry. It wasn't just killing them, it was doing it in a mechanical, industrial, efficient manor that horrifies people. Killing 30 million Native Americans in a fight over a new land in a war is different than killing 6 million people mechanically as you use them to further your industry.

For a good film on the actual "process" of the camps, Night and Fog (1955 30minutes movie, can be graphic at parts) seems to be the best to really bring across what the camps were. They were not simply death camps, nor labor camps, but a efficient industrialized process of turning humans into a commodity. That is why people are horrified at the holocaust, it stripped people of what it means to be human.


(Side Note: Night and Fog's copyright has been dropped so its free game if you can find it).
Click to expand...

I just scoffed at you so hard it hurt my throat/nasal passageway.
 
Originally posted by: MrDudeMan
Originally posted by: SSSnail
Originally posted by: JS80
Originally posted by: RichardE
The numbers themselves are really irrelevant. It could have been 500k or 30 million Jews. The reason is it such a *big deal* to people, or the underlying reason is because it became an industry. It wasn't just killing them, it was doing it in a mechanical, industrial, efficient manor that horrifies people. Killing 30 million Native Americans in a fight over a new land in a war is different than killing 6 million people mechanically as you use them to further your industry.

For a good film on the actual "process" of the camps, Night and Fog (1955 30minutes movie, can be graphic at parts) seems to be the best to really bring across what the camps were. They were not simply death camps, nor labor camps, but a efficient industrialized process of turning humans into a commodity. That is why people are horrified at the holocaust, it stripped people of what it means to be human.


(Side Note: Night and Fog's copyright has been dropped so its free game if you can find it).
Click to expand...

Hopefully this post will foil what the OP was trying to get at.
Click to expand...

Actually, no. It's funny how the winner writes history all the time and ignore all the details. The one things that saved the US genocide was the lack of media attention. How the fuck do you justify 30 mils to 6 mils as difference? Oh, they were just injuns, that's it. We're just gonna kill them to take their lands, no big deal.

What I'm trying to get at is people need to have perspective, you included. (I could say at least the Germans weren't wasteful, but that would spawn arguments).
Click to expand...

You completely missed the point. By quite a bit I might add.

Conquering a group of people is a lot different than exterminating them.
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Smallpox blankets != conquering.
 
Originally posted by: Fritzo
I didn't know colonists had gas chambers or performed experimental surgery on indians.
Click to expand...

The Smallpox blankets were the day's equivalent of gas chambers.
 
Originally posted by: RichardE
The numbers themselves are really irrelevant. It could have been 500k or 30 million Jews. The reason is it such a *big deal* to people, or the underlying reason is because it became an industry. It wasn't just killing them, it was doing it in a mechanical, industrial, efficient manor that horrifies people. Killing 30 million Native Americans in a fight over a new land in a war is different than killing 6 million people mechanically as you use them to further your industry.

For a good film on the actual "process" of the camps, Night and Fog (1955 30minutes movie, can be graphic at parts) seems to be the best to really bring across what the camps were. They were not simply death camps, nor labor camps, but a efficient industrialized process of turning humans into a commodity. That is why people are horrified at the holocaust, it stripped people of what it means to be human.


(Side Note: Night and Fog's copyright has been dropped so its free game if you can find it).
Click to expand...

Aren't you the guy who says that Native Americans are illegal immigrants?
 
Originally posted by: Canai
Originally posted by: Fritzo
I didn't know colonists had gas chambers or performed experimental surgery on indians.
Click to expand...

The Smallpox blankets were the day's equivalent of gas chambers.
Click to expand...

So then the question is how many Native Americans were killed with direct intent of the Europeans, not how many were killed by the event of the colonists.
 
Is this for a paper op?

I suggest you name it "Why the holocaust wasn't that bad, since worse was done to Native Americans and every one agrees THAT wasn't so bad".
 
Originally posted by: xalos
6 million jews or so in the holocaust. A lot more Native Americans were killed via purposeful spread of disease and war. Over 30 million which could be conservative based on what I have read.
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So you buy into that silly small pox blanket bullshit I guess? :roll:
 
Originally posted by: Jschmuck2
Originally posted by: RichardE
The numbers themselves are really irrelevant. It could have been 500k or 30 million Jews. The reason is it such a *big deal* to people, or the underlying reason is because it became an industry. It wasn't just killing them, it was doing it in a mechanical, industrial, efficient manor that horrifies people. Killing 30 million Native Americans in a fight over a new land in a war is different than killing 6 million people mechanically as you use them to further your industry.

For a good film on the actual "process" of the camps, Night and Fog (1955 30minutes movie, can be graphic at parts) seems to be the best to really bring across what the camps were. They were not simply death camps, nor labor camps, but a efficient industrialized process of turning humans into a commodity. That is why people are horrified at the holocaust, it stripped people of what it means to be human.


(Side Note: Night and Fog's copyright has been dropped so its free game if you can find it).
Click to expand...

Aren't you the guy who says that Native Americans are illegal immigrants?
Click to expand...

Nope, I hold no real opinion on Native Americans. What does that have in relevance to the post at all? Unless you lack an ability to actually comment on the subject at hand.
 
Originally posted by: Linflas
Originally posted by: xalos
6 million jews or so in the holocaust. A lot more Native Americans were killed via purposeful spread of disease and war. Over 30 million which could be conservative based on what I have read.
Click to expand...

So you buy into that silly small pox blanket bullshit I guess? :roll:
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😕

Are you a Holocaust denier as well?
 
Originally posted by: TestedAcorn
Originally posted by: ADDAvenger
42
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The answer to the universe.
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he must be eliminated.

Originally posted by: RapidSnail
Serious question. How many Native Americans did the Native Americans kill?
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Quiet you. Don't you know that only white people are responsible for all the pain and suffering in the world?

 
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