Serious question.
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DainBramaged
Lifer
- Jun 19, 2003
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6 million jews or so in the holocaust. A lot more Native Americans were killed via purposeful spread of disease and war. Over 30 million which could be conservative based on what I have read.
Noob.
The 26th rule of ATOT is to never actually answer an OPs question when they clearly indicate they only want serious replies.
You fail.
The numbers themselves are really irrelevant. It could have been 500k or 30 million Jews. The reason is it such a *big deal* to people, or the underlying reason is because it became an industry. It wasn't just killing them, it was doing it in a mechanical, industrial, efficient manor that horrifies people. Killing 30 million Native Americans in a fight over a new land in a war is different than killing 6 million people mechanically as you use them to further your industry.
For a good film on the actual "process" of the camps, Night and Fog (1955 30minutes movie, can be graphic at parts) seems to be the best to really bring across what the camps were. They were not simply death camps, nor labor camps, but a efficient industrialized process of turning humans into a commodity. That is why people are horrified at the holocaust, it stripped people of what it means to be human.
(Side Note: Night and Fog's copyright has been dropped so its free game if you can find it).
For a good film on the actual "process" of the camps, Night and Fog (1955 30minutes movie, can be graphic at parts) seems to be the best to really bring across what the camps were. They were not simply death camps, nor labor camps, but a efficient industrialized process of turning humans into a commodity. That is why people are horrified at the holocaust, it stripped people of what it means to be human.
(Side Note: Night and Fog's copyright has been dropped so its free game if you can find it).
- Nov 29, 2006
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Actually, no. It's funny how the winner writes history all the time and ignore all the details. The one things that saved the US genocide was the lack of media attention. How the fuck do you justify 30 mils to 6 mils as difference? Oh, they were just injuns, that's it. We're just gonna kill them to take their lands, no big deal.
What I'm trying to get at is people need to have perspective, you included. (I could say at least the Germans weren't wasteful, but that would spawn arguments).
Not all Native Americans were "exterminated" or slaughtered like thew Jews were. War is not the same thing as genocide. I'm not saying that many Native Americans weren't murdered or slaughtered, but for you can't compare the two.
I've never seen any combination of numbers coming up with 30 million N.A.'s. Most estimates I've seen have totaled around 10 mil.
N.A. extermination took place over the course of about 4 centuries, the Holocaust, a decade.
The world, for the most part, didn't care about the N.A. massacre. They were considered savages, little better than animals. Worse than African slaves, even.
A good chunk of the death of the N.A.'s was "unintentional" - caused by diseases (like small pox) brought over by the Europeans, against which the N.A.'s had no immuno-resistance. That said, even had the Europeans know this, it probably wouldn't have changed anything.
There was a difference in attitude. For the Nazis, it was "let's go and kill all the Jews!". For the Europeans/Americans, it was "deforestation".
During Andrew Jackson's Presidency - when the "Trail of Tears" event occurred - the Supreme Court ruled that the "forced eviction" of the N.A.'s was unConstitutional. Jackson disregarded that. There are many N.A.'s who refuse to handle $10 bills because Jackson's image is on it.
Where the hell do you get 30 million? I find it hard to believe that the entire population of the US back in the 1700s and 1800s was even close to 30 million.
So
Lifer
- Jul 2, 2001
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Note that, as far as I can tell, only two British officers ever even discussed deliberately infecting native indians, and that was in context of a military operation. Not to say that it wasn't despicable, and that the european settlers weren't criminal in their mistreatment and double dealing with natives -- *BUT* to call something a genocide requires an organized long term effort to exterminate an entire race, and I don't think that is historically factual
It wasn't the entire U.S. or Britain against all Native Americans. You can't speak of it collectively like it was a singular campaign, unlike Nazi Germany. What happened was territorial conflict, initially started by European settlers and predominantly started by them or Americans in later cases. Many times it was slaughter of defenseless people, but also in many instances it was war where one side hit the other, and retaliation followed.
I am not excusing the crimes of those who committed murder. My argument is that Nazi Germany initiated (and nearly completed) a calculated campaign of genocide against an entire people - a people that did not (on any large scale) or could night fight back - while the Native Americans were killed in initial territorial conquest of the Americas by different groups of people and from subsequent retaliations and conflicts. Again, I'm jot justifying what happened.
AreaCode707
Lifer
- Sep 21, 2001
- 18,447
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I think a per year calculation would be more interesting and less hyperbolic than what you are asking.
6 million Jews in 6 years via imprisonment and gas chamber shows intent.
30 million Native Americans over 300 years, many of inadvertent disease, has a different anthropological meaning and should produce a different moral judgment.
(Numbers and times are made up based on what other answers in this thread were.)
Not saying there weren't horrible people doing horrible things to Native Americans but on the whole you cannot fairly compare the Europeans taking over the Americas (from many different countries with many different intents) with the Nazis (a single small group of people who primarily intended extermination of certain people groups.)
6 million Jews in 6 years via imprisonment and gas chamber shows intent.
30 million Native Americans over 300 years, many of inadvertent disease, has a different anthropological meaning and should produce a different moral judgment.
(Numbers and times are made up based on what other answers in this thread were.)
Not saying there weren't horrible people doing horrible things to Native Americans but on the whole you cannot fairly compare the Europeans taking over the Americas (from many different countries with many different intents) with the Nazis (a single small group of people who primarily intended extermination of certain people groups.)
meltdown75
Lifer
- Nov 17, 2004
- 37,548
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