September 22nd ETA for AMD FX processors

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aigomorla

CPU, Cases&Cooling Mod PC Gaming Mod Elite Member
Super Moderator
Sep 28, 2005
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Did I miss something? Everybody is still talking like BD has been released and we have official, 3rd party benchmark results in hand :rolleyes:

AMD invited a bunch of journalists to there home office in TX on a preview of bulldozer.

Amungst the people who were invited, i know a handful.

They went to the invite and toured the facility.
Also as a bonus they got to check out an attempt breaking the WR.

They accomplished the GHZ record, but thats all.

Im not allowed to speak into details, but i know enough about the cpu to make some choices.

I know they run a lot cooler then the PH2 = bonus.
They all overclock like crazy = bonus.

But at the end of the day, the guys there were going WOW, so they broke the world record... but how come nothing else followed from it?

No CB, no Wprime, no sysmark, no passmark, no 3dmark even...

True given Wprime is intel favored... but Cinebench, and 3dMark.. :whiste:

If im not mistaken a 3dmark is not favored for either intel or AMD.
And AMD has always had a good run on 3dMark06.

At the very least im wondering if BD can beat the PH2 scores which are currently out there @ LN2 cooling.
 
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chihlidog

Senior member
Apr 12, 2011
884
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What Im seeing is getting pretty consistent.

A mod here (who I dont know, but I tend to trust any mods here), Kyle over at HardOCP are sort of saying the same thing. Kyle basically said "meh. it isnt great, but if it's overclocked you'll be OK with it."

Now aig here is saying it's pretty meh.

Sounds like clock speeds will be fun, but it isnt something worth skipping Sandy Bridge for, or even something for someone like me with a previous gen i5 to fuss over. That message is out there pretty clearly, and increasingly from reliable people.

Awesome. At least now I know I have no reason to go back to AMD.
 

intangir

Member
Jun 13, 2005
113
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That is a funny/sad link you have:

"The only bad thing is that some guys I know at AMD say that Bulldozer is not really all that great a product, but is shipping just because AMD
needs a model refresh. "Sometimes you just gotta ship what you got." If
this is so, and if I deserve any credit for CMT, then I also deserve
some of the blame. Although it might have been different, better, if I
had stayed. "

Its the worst story ever written. My children wouldnt even beliewe it. Highly unprofessional.

From my profession, reading that letter (that bitter collection of word you call an article), it looks like he needs some help. Sad. I hope none of us, will be in a situation where we will write like that in 12 years time.

OK, enough crap has been thrown at Andy Glew for one day! Here's a post that should enlighten you as to just how ridiculous this reaction is. I have to say, you have a very naive view of the world if that sounded unprofessional to you. That's the voice of experience talking, and it sounds reminiscent and somewhat regretful, but not at all the attitude of a broken man. If your children cannot recognize the validity of his statements, perhaps they should be taught that the way to avoid regrets is not to play it safe, but to take risks with their life.

Andy Glew did his undergraduate research on out-of-order microarchitectures. His name is on several patents involving register renaming, which is in use by every out-of-order CPU existent today. He used this expertise while working at Intel 1991-1996 on the P6 architecture. This became the first OOO x86 processor ever, and it went into the Pentium Pro and started Intel's foothold in the server market.

In 1996, after helping to start Intel's Microprocessor Research Lab, Andy left Intel to go back to grad school. After the birth of his daughter in 1999, he quit grad school to return to Intel, where he worked on virtual machines and speculative multithreading, and also contributed to the Willamette processor, the first Pentium 4. After some frustration with the work environment at Intel, he left to work for AMD 2002-2004 (some of their best years), where he contributed the fundamental ideas behind Bulldozer, multithreading and multiclustering. But he found the work environment at AMD not much better than at Intel, and left in June 2004 to write a book on computer architecture (http://www.pvcmuseum.com/cpu/andy-glew-proposed-amd-k10-architecture.htm ).

After 2005, he ended up back at Intel (rehires at Intel are reportedly very rare... he's been taken back twice!) working on security, supercomputers, and graphics. Inventing was in his blood though, and in 2009 he left Intel yet again to join a company called Intellectual Ventures. Recreating Thomas Edison's invention factory was a lifelong dream of his, and he has nearly 100 patents in his name, most related to computer architecture, but with some nifty off-the-wall randomness, like the one on "System providing video compression/encoding for communications across a network". Also known as, the webcam!

So that's where he is now. Pretty impressive CV, if I do say so myself. But evidently, he said one lukewarm thing about Bulldozer, and all that life history suddenly means nothing. People who cannot plausibly counter the truth of his statements now find all manner of fault with his credibility, casting aspersions on his character and the manner of his conduct. But his opinion still stands, and I think his opinion holds a thousand times the weight of the opinions of those that seek to discredit him.
 

aigomorla

CPU, Cases&Cooling Mod PC Gaming Mod Elite Member
Super Moderator
Sep 28, 2005
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Awesome. At least now I know I have no reason to go back to AMD.

not busting your bubble.. but at your point a 2600k upgrade is cheaper and probably net more.

BD will require a new board and new cpu.

The cost of new board + new cpu will cost more then a 2600k.

Your platform is 2600k ready, so this product probably wont pertain to you.

But i do know a lot of people who are on the AM3 platform and are looking at upgrade.

This is where i need to make a decision at.. do i upgrade them to bulldozer which will be still cheaper then a SB system, or do i keep them on the current platform and start farming X6's for them.

From what im looking at right now... BD wont be able to keep up with an X6, from any advantage point.

Price no way.... new boards adds to cost vs new cpu only.

Performance ... im sorry im not full on the 8 core on the AMD.. it feels like HyperThreading to me probably because ive been on intel and thats what they called it all this time... the X6 however is a REAL 6 core anyway u look at it.

Value... no brainer... no new board.. just cpu upgrade makes the X6 a complete win.


So someone tell me.. how BD is suposed to be better then the X6?
 

chihlidog

Senior member
Apr 12, 2011
884
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not busting your bubble.. but at your point a 2600k upgrade is cheaper and probably net more.

BD will require a new board and new cpu.

The cost of new board + new cpu will cost more then a 2600k.

Your platform is 2600k ready, so this product probably wont pertain to you.

But i do know a lot of people who are on the AM3 platform and are looking at upgrade.

This is where i need to make a decision at.. do i upgrade them to bulldozer which will be still cheaper then a SB system, or do i keep them on the current platform and start farming X6's for them.

From what im looking at right now... BD wont be able to keep up with an X6, from any advantage point.

Price no way.... new boards adds to cost vs new cpu only.

Performance ... im sorry im not full on the 8 core on the AMD.. it feels like HyperThreading to me probably because ive been on intel and thats what they called it all this time... the X6 however is a REAL 6 core anyway u look at it.

Value... no brainer... no new board.. just cpu upgrade makes the X6 a complete win.


So someone tell me.. how BD is suposed to be better then the X6?

Yeah, my rig is a toy. Just for browsing, games, and general dicking around, so my current cpu (i5-750 running nicely at 3.7) is plenty fast for anything I need it for. I was thinking BD might be fun, but obviously not only will it not be faster, it sounds like a bit of a downgrade.

At least I wont have to fight any temptation to buy one. I'm over my temptation for a SB, BD certainly has nothing for me. At this point, I can look forward to the 7xxx series cards, drop one in my system early next year, and still be in great shape for a good while longer without feeling like Im missing anything amazing.
 

Arzachel

Senior member
Apr 7, 2011
903
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So someone tell me.. how BD is suposed to be better then the X6?

Clocks higher, with more OC headroom or much better turbo, if you don't overclock, better at AES encryption, has more cores within a lower TDP envelope(with what evidence we have, these could be taken as objectively true) and has higher IPC (this should be fairly certain, but I'd wait for launch before taking anything for granted).

Best outcome, BD doesn't bottleneck at programs, that use a single/low amount of threads, and shines at highly threaded tasks.

Worst outcome, horrid single/low thread performance, not much better than i7 2600 at highly threaded tasks.
 
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NostaSeronx

Diamond Member
Sep 18, 2011
3,811
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Who do you trust?

No one until release ():)
(I'm not going to buy it until I see the outlook, Zambezi, Vishera, and NG)

So someone tell me.. how BD is suposed to be better then the X6?

Phenom II can't do two ALUs and two AGUs per cycle like Bulldozer can :p
FMA~ and AVX~

Macro-op fusion
AMD can now fuse x86 branch instructions, similar to Intel’s macro-ops fusion to increase the effective width of the machine as well.
Decoupled Branch Prediction
In Bulldozer the branch prediction and fetch logic are decoupled. The predictor now produces a queue of future fetch addresses. Even if there’s a mispredict the branch predictor can continue to fill its prediction queue with targets. The fetch logic can then check this queue of addresses against what’s in the instruction cache to avoid future misses in L1.
other things as well but again keep saying the same thing over and over till everyone gets the memo
 

aigomorla

CPU, Cases&Cooling Mod PC Gaming Mod Elite Member
Super Moderator
Sep 28, 2005
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Clocks higher, with more OC headroom or much better turbo, if you don't overclock, better at AES encryption, has more cores within a lower TDP envelope(with what evidence we have, these could be taken as objectively true) and has higher IPC (this should be fairly certain, but I'd wait for launch before taking anything for granted).

OK so when we see these real scores..

19th? passed..

22nd? thats in 2 days?

October? We going russian with red october?
 

aigomorla

CPU, Cases&Cooling Mod PC Gaming Mod Elite Member
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Sep 28, 2005
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When did we see real scores for Cayman? Not a rhetorical question, just curious.

heres my logic..

The invite @ AMD would require the most up to date AMD processor.

To get a HWBOT score, you can not use an ES.
HWBOT has invalided ES's for posting which is why u never see me post on HWBOT.

So to get the WR on HWBOT a retail cpu must of been used, and its not far fetch seeing how it was @ the AMD head quarters.

So if your telling me they used a non retail CPU to post that HWBOT score, then AMD is going to get into a lot of trouble from HWBOT and its members.

So i dont think AMD would do something that would piss off the overclocking crowd when its trying to appease the overclocking crowd.
 

NostaSeronx

Diamond Member
Sep 18, 2011
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heres my logic..

The invite @ AMD would require the most up to date AMD processor.

To get a HWBOT score, you can not use an ES.
HWBOT has invalided ES's for posting which is why u never see me post on HWBOT.

So to get the WR on HWBOT a retail cpu must of been used, and its not far fetch seeing how it was @ the AMD head quarters.

So if your telling me they used a non retail CPU to post that HWBOT score, then AMD is going to get into a lot of trouble from HWBOT and its members.

So i dont think AMD would do something that would piss off the overclocking crowd when its trying to appease the overclocking crowd.

I bet $5 end of this year we will see Bulldozer hit 9GHz+

Just the beginning man, just the beginning!!!
 

Arzachel

Senior member
Apr 7, 2011
903
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heres my logic..

The invite @ AMD would require the most up to date AMD processor.

To get a HWBOT score, you can not use an ES.
HWBOT has invalided ES's for posting which is why u never see me post on HWBOT.

So to get the WR on HWBOT a retail cpu must of been used, and its not far fetch seeing how it was @ the AMD head quarters.

So if your telling me they used a non retail CPU to post that HWBOT score, then AMD is going to get into a lot of trouble from HWBOT and its members.

So i dont think AMD would do something that would piss off the overclocking crowd when its trying to appease the overclocking crowd.


Umm, I'm quite sure I read, that they actually used engineering samples, I'll try to find a quote.
 

aigomorla

CPU, Cases&Cooling Mod PC Gaming Mod Elite Member
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Sep 28, 2005
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Umm, I'm quite sure I read, that they actually used engineering samples, I'll try to find a quote.

http://hwbot.org/article/general_rules

4. Lending hardware, hardware sharing, score sharing/selling/buying

This in a delicate subject as we have to trust on the honesty of those participating at the HWbot that they are indeed using their own hardware and not sharing a golden sample CPU or VGA card.
Let’s start with what is allowed to be shared: everything except:

- VGA may not be shared for 3D Benchmarks
- CPU may not be shared for 2D Benchmarks
- special cases, like what to do with joint bench sessions and manufacturer hardware is explained here.


Golden Sample basically represents ES's as they are pre release and gives people who have access to them an unfair advantage.
 

aigomorla

CPU, Cases&Cooling Mod PC Gaming Mod Elite Member
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Sep 28, 2005
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or an unfair disadvantage with more heat being exhausted and more power being absorbed

no people dont look at it that way.

more like you have a 975 which is the WR holder.

Then someone like me happens to get a intel partner to send me a Q3QP which is a code for the gulftown pre release.

Then someone like me comes in and makes your score a living shit pile, because i have 2 more cores and 4 more threads then your retail cpu with an overclocking wall higher.
Q3QP's were mad cheetahs... omg dont get me started on how fragile they were tho.

then someone like me will hold onto the HWBOT crown litterally forever because when you get the retail Q3QP aka 980X, the person like me, will already be working on getting a SB-E 10c/20t 30meg cache to rape your retail 990x score for another god knows how many months.. :biggrin:

This is why hwbot ban'd ES's from record scores, and why all hosted WR events use retail cpu's that intel sponsors.
 

Idontcare

Elite Member
Oct 10, 1999
21,110
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and this is why i made my friend wait god knows how many months? only to hear another delay? and to see benchies where an X6 would stomp it?

You guys see why im so lost here and just annoyed?

LOL, yeah I see where you are coming from now :p Its a difficult position to be in.

I went looking for AT's original Phenom review, found it here, and came across this gem on the first page...it seems so dejavu o_O

AMD had been doing such a great job of opening the kimono as its employees liked to say, giving us a great amount of detail on Barcelona, Phenom and even the company's plans for 2008 - 2009. The closer we got to Phenom's official launch however, the quieter AMD got.

Ever wonder why we didn't have an early look at Phenom like we did for every Core 2 processor before the embargo lifted? Not only are CPUs scarce, but AMD itself didn't really know what would be launching until the last moment.

At any rate I didn't find what I was looking for, in that review Anand did not compare Phenom to the existing Athlon X2's, but I suppose this bench link will suffice comparing the Phenom 9650 to the Athlon X2 6400+.
 

Idontcare

Elite Member
Oct 10, 1999
21,110
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http://hwbot.org/article/general_rules

4. Lending hardware, hardware sharing, score sharing/selling/buying

This in a delicate subject as we have to trust on the honesty of those participating at the HWbot that they are indeed using their own hardware and not sharing a golden sample CPU or VGA card.
Let’s start with what is allowed to be shared: everything except:

- VGA may not be shared for 3D Benchmarks
- CPU may not be shared for 2D Benchmarks
- special cases, like what to do with joint bench sessions and manufacturer hardware is explained here.


Golden Sample basically represents ES's as they are pre release and gives people who have access to them an unfair advantage.

It's also unfair in that it robs their own paying customers of the opportunity to "be one of the best".

IMO the whole system really makes a mockery of the enthusiast demographic.

Take an average Joe like myself who might have enough coin to buy an extreme edition CPU, ok so I get my chip 6 months after someone who was sponsored to OC the hell out of a "free" chip, at best I'm going to try and compete against WR's that have been standing for 6 months.

Worse still is that if I burn up my $1k chip then I'm out a grand, if the sponsored guy burns up his freebie sample then he's out nothing.

In that equation the guy who has less skin in the game is more likely to be the risk taker, pushing his suicide runs ever higher, further ensuring the WR remains his for longer still.

I know you are sponsored Aigo and I sure don't want you to think I am disrespecting you, but I hope you can appreciate why I have a ton more respect for the at-home DIY bonafide enthusiast who is sponsoring himself when he decides to push his chip to 5GHz on dry ice or LN2 or some such versus the guy who may push his chip even higher but it isn't actually his chip to begin with and if it burns up in the process he's also not out $1k retail on it (not too mention the LN2 is free because its provided at the OC-fest and so on).
 

Arzachel

Senior member
Apr 7, 2011
903
76
91
http://hwbot.org/article/general_rules

4. Lending hardware, hardware sharing, score sharing/selling/buying

This in a delicate subject as we have to trust on the honesty of those participating at the HWbot that they are indeed using their own hardware and not sharing a golden sample CPU or VGA card.
Let’s start with what is allowed to be shared: everything except:

- VGA may not be shared for 3D Benchmarks
- CPU may not be shared for 2D Benchmarks
- special cases, like what to do with joint bench sessions and manufacturer hardware is explained here.


Golden Sample basically represents ES's as they are pre release and gives people who have access to them an unfair advantage.

Wouldn't this be against any pre release CPU's, ES or production, due to them being available only to the handful of people that AMD choose? But I'll take your word for it.

I find both Ivy Bridge and SB-E boring as hell, because we more or less know everything about them. BD causes such amounts of speculation because it could be P4, the second coming of Chuck Noris and everything in between. Say what you will about AMD's stance on no official benchmarks before launch, but it fulfills its purpose amazingly well :)
 
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NostaSeronx

Diamond Member
Sep 18, 2011
3,811
1,289
136
Wouldn't this be against any pre release CPU's, ES or production due to them being available only to the handful of people that AMD choose? But I'll take your word for it.

I find both Ivy Bridge and SB-E boring as hell, because we more or less know everything about them. BD causes such amounts of speculation because it could be P4, the second coming of Chuck Noris and everything in between. Say what you will about AMD's stance on no official benchmarks before launch, but it fulfills its purpose amazingly well :)

I prefer to call Bulldozer the √ (π ∙∞²)

I have no idea what it means but I obviously don't know when Bulldozer will come out either
 

ronss

Member
May 25, 2003
150
4
81
i contacted amd, and they replyed that the server bulldozer was released earlier this month...is this cpu a lot different from the fx desktop version?
 

Arkaign

Lifer
Oct 27, 2006
20,736
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What Im seeing is getting pretty consistent.

A mod here (who I dont know, but I tend to trust any mods here), Kyle over at HardOCP are sort of saying the same thing. Kyle basically said "meh. it isnt great, but if it's overclocked you'll be OK with it."

Now aig here is saying it's pretty meh.

Sounds like clock speeds will be fun, but it isnt something worth skipping Sandy Bridge for, or even something for someone like me with a previous gen i5 to fuss over. That message is out there pretty clearly, and increasingly from reliable people.

Awesome. At least now I know I have no reason to go back to AMD.

Your rig is already pretty stout.

As for BD, I'm not really hoping for anything more than competition to appear for the 2100 and 2400-level CPUs that are not locked.

I've said it what feels like a billion times now : If there is a BD model that can overclock safely (and not too much volts/heat/power use) to stock 2500k performance level, but costs ideally in the $150 range or less, then I'll call that a huge win. I'm absolutely not a fan of the locked CPU thing, though I understand from a business perspective on Intel's side. They wouldn't be selling so many 2500k @ $220 if everyone was just buying 2400 @ 170 or whatever and clocking those to 4ghz+, as they're on the same process anyway. Even the 2100 would be a decent deal even if only a duallie, as the 2100 benches are fairly decent even stock for many things. Certainly most games are totally playable with a 2100 and moderate to good GPU such as the 5800 series.
 

skipsneeky2

Diamond Member
May 21, 2011
5,035
1
71
I'm gonna call bs on this date.

Not cause i'm looking like a jerk but cause so many delays i expect another one.

IF it comes and goes on that date then i will apologize but i'm not to optimistic any more with promises or dates from the green team.