Senators call for Khalid Sheikh Mohammed Abuse investigation

[umbrella39]

Originally posted by: daniel49
half you morons would have set Hitler free given the chance.

If you were only half a moron, you would only be slightly retarded. Unfortunately for you, you are a complete moron.

 

[daniel49]

Originally posted by: umbrella39

Originally posted by: daniel49
half you morons would have set Hitler free given the chance.

If you were only half a moron, you would only be slightly retarded. Unfortunately for you, you are a complete moron.

Well, I suppose you would know if anyone did....shrug

 

[Harvey]

Originally posted by: palehorse74
@Harvey and his sidekick IMC:

I see that you failed to find "waterboarding,:" or anything even remotely similar, in the 2-22.3.

I see that either you're still reading challenged or, or you're just ducking the issue by denying that the definition of waterboarding at my previous link conforms precisely to the definition of torture in the first paragraph of TITLE 18, PART I, CHAPTER 113C, § 2340 of the U.S. Code and the definitions of the terms, severe mental pain or suffering spelled out in paragraphs 2A and 2C.

In case you're too mouse challenged to scroll back a few posts, I'll post just the relevant sections again for you for the third time in this thread.

U.S. Code

TITLE 18, PART I, CHAPTER 113C, § 2340

§ 2340. Definitions

As used in this chapter?

• (1) ?torture? means an act committed by a person acting under the color of law specifically intended to inflict severe physical or mental pain or suffering (other than pain or suffering incidental to lawful sanctions) upon another person within his custody or physical control;
  
  (2) ?severe mental pain or suffering? means the prolonged mental harm caused by or resulting from?
  • 
    (A) the intentional infliction or threatened infliction of severe physical pain or suffering;
    .
    .
    (C) the threat of imminent death;
    .
    .

• 
  

  Waterboarding is a technique which is used to obtain information, coerce confessions, and for punishment and intimidation. It is considered torture by many people. Waterboarding consists of immobilizing an individual and pouring water over his face to simulate drowning, which produces a severe gag reflex, making the subject believe his death is imminent while ideally not causing permanent physical damage.[/b]
  .
  .
  According to Republican United States Senator John McCain, who was tortured as a prisoner of war in North Vietnam, waterboarding is "very exquisite torture" and a mock execution, which can damage the subject's psyche "in ways that may never heal."

  Originally posted by: palehorse74
  Enjoy your Moore-flavored koolaid.

  I don't know what you've been smoking or snorting, but it's obviously got more kick than flavored sugar water. When you get at least one toe back to the planet, it's your turn to show us how waterboarding is NOT torture, instead of blindly denying it is.

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: Harvey
I don't know what you've been smoking or snorting, but it's obviously got more kick than flavored sugar water. When you get at least one toe back to the planet, it's your turn to show us how waterboarding is NOT torture, instead of blindly denying it is.

I'm still waiting for you to show us how/where military interrogators are ever taught torture techniques - of any sort, including waterboarding. It is my contention that these techniques are not found anywhere in our military training programs.

So, once you admit that these techniques are possibly used by a very limited number of OGA interrogators, we'll move on... Then again, I have yet to see any definitive proof that even the OGA's still use torture - so seeing some actual proof of that would also be swell.

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: Harvey
I don't know what you've been smoking or snorting, but it's obviously got more kick than flavored sugar water. When you get at least one toe back to the planet, it's your turn to show us how waterboarding is NOT torture, instead of blindly denying it is.

I'm still waiting for you to show us how/where military interrogators are ever taught torture techniques - of any sort, including waterboarding. It is my contention that these techniques are not found anywhere in our military training programs.

So, once you admit that these techniques are possibly used by a very limited number of OGA interrogators, we'll move on... Then again, I have yet to see any definitive proof that even the OGA's still use torture - so seeing some actual proof of that would also be swell.

You, sir, are a weak, amoral apologist of the worst kind. You have never accepted the fact that DoD has used outsourcing, extraordinary rendition, and civilian contractors as means for ensuring that high-value subjects WILL BE tortured, while retaining plausible deniability. Interrogators working under US supervision have tortured dozens and dozens of subjects to death since 9/11, notwithstanding the fact that torture has been proven to be a generally ineffective technique for extracting reliable information (indeed, apropos of the topic at hand, my guess is that Khalid Sheikh Mohamed's confession will prove to be a fabrication - he seems to have totally lost his mind after years of torture). Whether or not military interrogators have been engaged in torture is almost entirely beside the point, when there's simply no question that untold thousands of US detainees HAVE been tortured, with the explicit approval and under the supervision of the US government.

Honestly it disturbs me that you purport to be in military intelligence, and I hope it's not true, in that you seem SO obtuse and disingenuous. I've known many people in military intelligence and they were all, to a man, smarter and more principled than you appear to be.

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: DonVito

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: Harvey
I don't know what you've been smoking or snorting, but it's obviously got more kick than flavored sugar water. When you get at least one toe back to the planet, it's your turn to show us how waterboarding is NOT torture, instead of blindly denying it is.

I'm still waiting for you to show us how/where military interrogators are ever taught torture techniques - of any sort, including waterboarding. It is my contention that these techniques are not found anywhere in our military training programs.

So, once you admit that these techniques are possibly used by a very limited number of OGA interrogators, we'll move on... Then again, I have yet to see any definitive proof that even the OGA's still use torture - so seeing some actual proof of that would also be swell.

You, sir, are a weak, amoral apologist of the worst kind. You have never accepted the fact that DoD has used outsourcing, extraordinary rendition, and civilian contractors as means for ensuring that high-value subjects WILL BE tortured, while retaining plausible deniability. Interrogators working under US supervision have tortured dozens and dozens of subjects to death since 9/11, notwithstanding the fact that torture has been proven to be a generally ineffective technique for extracting reliable information. Whether or not military interrogators have been engaged in torture is almost entirely beside the point, when there's simply no question that untold thousands of US detainees HAVE been tortured, with the explicit approval and under the supervision of the US government.

Honestly it disturbs me that you purport to be in military intelligence, and I hope it's not true, in that you seem SO obtuse and disingenuous. I've known many people in military intelligence and they were all, to a man, smarter and more principled than you appear to be.

I am merely trying to stop people from believing that military interrogators, themselves, frequently conduct torturous interrogations. That's simply not true. Nor is there a course on torture anywhere in the military curriculum.

In other words, there are no active military interrogators in Iraq who torture detainees; as some people here continue to believe and frequently say here in the forums. Many of you refuse to accept that harsh techniques are not the norm.

As for your personal attacks, well, I'm sure you know where to stick those...

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

Originally posted by: palehorse74

I am merely trying to stop people from believing that military interrogators, themselves, conduct torturous interrogations. That's simply not true. Nor is there a course on torture anywhere in the military curriculum.

In other words, there are no active military interrogators in Iraq who torture detainees; as some people here continue to believe and frequently say here in the forums. Many of you refuse to accept that harsh techniques are not the norm.

As for your personal attacks, well, I'm sure you know where to stick those...

Again, your "point" misses the point, in that the detainees have demonstrably been tortured, in many cases to death, with the explicit knowledge and approval of DoD. As it happens one of my closest friends is a DIA agent who spent six months (at the time she was an active-duty AFOSI agent) interrogating suspects at Gitmo - I consider her a fine person and I'm sure she did nothing wrong. That in no way exculpates the Pentagon and the White House, who have absolutely condoned and subsidized the torture and murder of countless detainees.

Honestly I am mystified by your defensiveness on this issue, in that your defenses are so transparently meaningless. Do you deny the findings of the DoD IG, who has found that dozens of detainees have been tortured to death since 9/11? If not, what is the point of your posts on this issue? What is your position on the torture of detainees in rendition, or by contractors? Is that OK or not?

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: DonVito

Originally posted by: palehorse74

I am merely trying to stop people from believing that military interrogators, themselves, conduct torturous interrogations. That's simply not true. Nor is there a course on torture anywhere in the military curriculum.

In other words, there are no active military interrogators in Iraq who torture detainees; as some people here continue to believe and frequently say here in the forums. Many of you refuse to accept that harsh techniques are not the norm.

As for your personal attacks, well, I'm sure you know where to stick those...

Again, your "point" misses the point, in that the detainees have demonstrably been tortured, in many cases to death, with the explicit knowledge and approval of DoD. As it happens one of my closest friends is a DIA agent who spent six months (at the time she was an active-duty AFOSI agent) interrogating suspects at Gitmo - I consider her a fine person and I'm sure she did nothing wrong. That in no way exculpates the Pentagon and the White House, who have absolutely condoned and subsidized the torture and murder of countless detainees.

Honestly I am mystified by your defensiveness on this issue, in that your defenses are so transparently meaningless. Do you deny the findings of the DoD IG, who has found that dozens of detainees have been tortured to death since 9/11? If not, what is the point of your posts on this issue? What is your position on the torture of detainees in rendition, or by contractors? Is that OK or not?

dont be so damn slowwww.. I spelled it out in my first sentence above:

I am merely trying to stop people from believing that military interrogators, themselves, frequently conduct torturous interrogations.

several posters here have asserted otherwise, and it pisses me off. period.

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

Originally posted by: palehorse74

dont be so damn slowwww.. I spelled it out in my first sentence above:

I am merely trying to stop people from believing that military interrogators, themselves, frequently conduct torturous interrogations.

several posters here have asserted otherwise, and it pisses me off. period.

Again, though, I don't ever recall you expressing an opinion on the torture and murder of detainees by people OTHER than military interrogators, under the supervision of the US government, which I can only conclude means you think that is OK. Am I incorrect in that, or what? If I am I certainly withdraw my comments about your amorality, but your silence is troubling, and your rhetoric seems entirely designed around a fervent desire to avoid addressing what I feel is the real issue. Frankly if my tax dollars are subsidizing torture I don't care whether the men administering it are wearing uniforms, and I doubt many Americans feel much differently than me on that issue.

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: Harvey

Originally posted by: palehorse74
@Harvey and his sidekick IMC:

I see that you failed to find "waterboarding,:" or anything even remotely similar, in the 2-22.3.

I see that either you're still reading challenged or, or you're just ducking the issue by denying that the definition of waterboarding at my previous link conforms precisely to the definition of torture in the first paragraph of TITLE 18, PART I, CHAPTER 113C, § 2340 of the U.S. Code and the definitions of the terms, severe mental pain or suffering spelled out in paragraphs 2A and 2C.

In case you're too mouse challenged to scroll back a few posts, I'll post just the relevant sections again for you for the third time in this thread.

U.S. Code

TITLE 18, PART I, CHAPTER 113C, § 2340

§ 2340. Definitions

As used in this chapter?

• (1) ?torture? means an act committed by a person acting under the color of law specifically intended to inflict severe physical or mental pain or suffering (other than pain or suffering incidental to lawful sanctions) upon another person within his custody or physical control;
  
  (2) ?severe mental pain or suffering? means the prolonged mental harm caused by or resulting from?
  • 
    (A) the intentional infliction or threatened infliction of severe physical pain or suffering;
    .
    .
    (C) the threat of imminent death;
    .
    .

• 
  

  Waterboarding is a technique which is used to obtain information, coerce confessions, and for punishment and intimidation. It is considered torture by many people. Waterboarding consists of immobilizing an individual and pouring water over his face to simulate drowning, which produces a severe gag reflex, making the subject believe his death is imminent while ideally not causing permanent physical damage.[/b]
  .
  .
  According to Republican United States Senator John McCain, who was tortured as a prisoner of war in North Vietnam, waterboarding is "very exquisite torture" and a mock execution, which can damage the subject's psyche "in ways that may never heal."

  Originally posted by: palehorse74
  Enjoy your Moore-flavored koolaid.

  I don't know what you've been smoking or snorting, but it's obviously got more kick than flavored sugar water. When you get at least one toe back to the planet, it's your turn to show us how waterboarding is NOT torture, instead of blindly denying it is.

• 
  
  Too bad my thread on Abu Ghraib is no longer around. Paleface is merely spouting the same apologist crap the Bush-bots were spouting nearly 3 years ago.

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: DonVito

Originally posted by: palehorse74

dont be so damn slowwww.. I spelled it out in my first sentence above:

I am merely trying to stop people from believing that military interrogators, themselves, frequently conduct torturous interrogations.

several posters here have asserted otherwise, and it pisses me off. period.

Again, though, I don't ever recall you expressing an opinion on the torture and murder of detainees by people OTHER than military interrogators, under the supervision of the US government, which I can only conclude means you think that is OK. Am I incorrect in that, or what? If I am I certainly withdraw my comments about your amorality, but your silence is troubling, and your rhetoric seems entirely designed around a fervent desire to avoid addressing what I feel is the real issue. Frankly if my tax dollars are subsidizing torture I don't care whether the men administering it are wearing uniforms, and I doubt many Americans feel much differently than me on that issue.

I personally do not condone any form of torture in any situation except a ticking bomb scenario.

 

[Harvey]

Originally posted by: palehorse74
So, once you admit that these techniques are possibly used by a very limited number of OGA interrogators, we'll move on... Then again, I have yet to see any definitive proof that even the OGA's still use torture - so seeing some actual proof of that would also be swell.
.
.
I am merely trying to stop people from believing that military interrogators, themselves, frequently conduct torturous interrogations. That's simply not true. Nor is there a course on torture anywhere in the military curriculum.

In other words, there are no active military interrogators in Iraq who torture detainees; as some people here continue to believe and frequently say here in the forums. Many of you refuse to accept that harsh techniques are not the norm.

You can deny it all you want, but you can't prove any of it. I would love to believe our military people know better, but considering the number of torture cases that have been confirmed, including Abu Ghraib and more, where your Idiot In Chief and his criminal gang first denied it happened, then tried to put it off on lower ranking fallguys, and since even YOU admit these techniques have "possibly" been used by ANYONE, EVER, there's EVERY reason to suspect the problem runs far deeper than has yet been brought to light.

If you're so damned sure no military interrogators, or their proxy civilian "contractors," or the interrogators from other nations to which they were "rendered" tortured anyone, the burden is on you to give us links to prove it.

 

[CitizenKain]

Originally posted by: daniel49
half you morons would have set Hitler free given the chance.

And you would have fought with him, after all, HE tortured people, so he couldn't have been that bad.

 

[Stoneburner]

Read The one percent doctrine by ron suskind. KSM is a joke.

 

[GarfieldtheCat]

I believe palehorse74 is simply trying to differentiate between the US military and other non-military agencies (CIA, etc....). He is saying that the US Army doesn't torture, and that anything the CIA or other people due should not be lumped in with the Army.

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: GarfieldtheCat
I believe palehorse74 is simply trying to differentiate between the US military and other non-military agencies (CIA, etc....). He is saying that the US Army doesn't torture, and that anything the CIA or other people due should not be lumped in with the Army.

Thank you. That is exactly what I was trying to say.

There are a few examples of military interrogators-gone-bad; however, on the whole, the military itself frowns upon torture, and does not teach those methods to interrogators.

 

[Harvey]

Originally posted by: GarfieldtheCat
I believe palehorse74 is simply trying to differentiate between the US military and other non-military agencies (CIA, etc....). He is saying that the US Army doesn't torture, and that anything the CIA or other people due should not be lumped in with the Army.

Same question -- With all the secrecy, excuses, blame shifting, dodging and other bullsh8 we get from our own government officials, how does he, or anyone else, know who's doing what to whom? From what we know has happened, I wouldn't be suprised if there were more horror stories in any branch of the service, but even after an investigation or five, I don't think if we'll ever know the full truth.

I'm proud to be an American in the America I was raised to love. That doesn't mean I'll blindly follow the Bushwhackos into their totalitarian Amerikan nightmare.

 

[dualsmp]

Khalid Shaikh Mohammed was reported dead back in Oct 30, 2002 according to Asia Times. Was he resurrected somehow by some voodoo witchdoctor?

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/DJ30Df01.html

Now it has emerged that Kuwaiti national Khalid Shaikh Mohammed did indeed perish in the raid, but his wife and child were taken from the apartment and handed over to the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI), in whose hands they remain.

 

[Jaskalas]

Originally posted by: CitizenKain

Originally posted by: daniel49
half you morons would have set Hitler free given the chance.

And you would have fought with him, after all, HE tortured people, so he couldn't have been that bad.

You?re disgusting, comparing water boarding the highest ranking member of Al'Qaeda (in our custody) to such things as shoving glass tubes up into a guy?s urinary track, breaking it inside the body, and then watching the person die from infection and agony.

You talk of torture, but we don?t do ****** compared to the evils you gleefully proclaim.

Again, when there are chunks of flesh missing tell me and I?ll be the first to call for vengeance against our people who committed REAL crimes. Until that happens, you?re frivolously assaulting this nation during a time of war for political reasons. You undermine our effort to fight militant Islam; you may as well the fighting for them for all the trouble you cause with vicious lies.

Nothing angers me more.

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

Originally posted by: Jaskalas

You?re disgusting, comparing water boarding the highest ranking member of Al'Qaeda (in our custody) to such things as shoving glass tubes up into a guy?s urinary track, breaking it inside the body, and then watching the person die from infection and agony.

You talk of torture, but we don?t do ****** compared to the evils you gleefully proclaim.

Again, when there are chunks of flesh missing tell me and I?ll be the first to call for vengeance against our people who committed REAL crimes. Until that happens, you?re frivolously assaulting this nation during a time of war for political reasons. You undermine our effort to fight militant Islam; you may as well the fighting for them for all the trouble you cause with vicious lies.

Nothing angers me more.

What I find disgusting is rationalizing and minimizing torture and murder in the name of "freedom." Dozens of detainees, including the Iraqi Air Force Chief of Staff (who was beaten to death), have been fatally tortured since 9/11, according to the DoD Inspector General. It's not as though all we've done is water boarding.

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: DonVito
What I find disgusting is rationalizing and minimizing torture and murder in the name of "freedom." Dozens of detainees, including the Iraqi Air Force Chief of Staff (who was beaten to death), have been fatally tortured since 9/11, according to the DoD Inspector General. It's not as though all we've done is water boarding.

I will never diminish the seriousness of the crimes uncovered by the IG; but, I do take issue with those who consistently present such examples as the rule, rather than the exception.

I'm all for punishing those interrogators who deserve it, and I am genuinely saddened by the overall damage those cases have done to the DoD's image; but those of you who continue to purport this as the norm, or the rule, must also be ridiculed and corrected.

 

[Harvey]

Originally posted by: DonVito
What I find disgusting is rationalizing and minimizing torture and murder in the name of "freedom."

OFT!

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: DonVito
What I find disgusting is rationalizing and minimizing torture and murder in the name of "freedom." Dozens of detainees, including the Iraqi Air Force Chief of Staff (who was beaten to death), have been fatally tortured since 9/11, according to the DoD Inspector General. It's not as though all we've done is water boarding.

I will never diminish the seriousness of the crimes uncovered by the IG; but, I do take issue with those who consistently present such examples as the rule, rather than the exception.

I'm all for punishing those interrogators who deserve it, and I am genuinely saddened by the overall damage those cases have done to the DoD's image; but those of you who continue to purport this as the norm, or the rule, must also be ridiculed and corrected.

The problem is that we, the taxpaying public, have no way of knowing what the "norm" is, since for the most part the torture is outsourced through extraordinary rendition or the use of civilian contractors. I don't disagree that generally military interrogators are principled people who do their jobs ethically and professionally, but the reality is that these interrogators are denied many high-value subjects, who are instead deliberately sent to countries that do not criminalize torture, or interrogated by contractors/mercenaries.

 

[jman19]

I'm not quite sure why people are afraid of investigation in to this matter, unless they believe we should be torturing people to produce answers. I see calling for investigation as a check against abuses, not as a defense for the scumbag KSM.

 

[Termagant]

Originally posted by: Jaskalas

Originally posted by: CitizenKain

Originally posted by: daniel49
half you morons would have set Hitler free given the chance.

And you would have fought with him, after all, HE tortured people, so he couldn't have been that bad.

You?re disgusting, comparing water boarding the highest ranking member of Al'Qaeda (in our custody) to such things as shoving glass tubes up into a guy?s urinary track, breaking it inside the body, and then watching the person die from infection and agony.

You talk of torture, but we don?t do ****** compared to the evils you gleefully proclaim.

Again, when there are chunks of flesh missing tell me and I?ll be the first to call for vengeance against our people who committed REAL crimes. Until that happens, you?re frivolously assaulting this nation during a time of war for political reasons. You undermine our effort to fight militant Islam; you may as well the fighting for them for all the trouble you cause with vicious lies.

Nothing angers me more.

Waaaaaaa let me address your infantile whining on a point by point basis:

"At least we're not as bad as the Nazis" Wow what a high standard for America.

Would you really be the first to call for vengeance? It seems that the right wing law and order types are the first ones to support authoritative police states, regardless of the political leanings of said state. I guess they don't care so much for politics as for getting their jollies from abusing, torturing, and killing their personal "undesirables."

"Frivolously assaulting this nation at time of war for political reasons" How convenient that we are now perpetually at war against "the tactic of scaring civilian populations to enact political change." And what non political reasons are there to "assault" a nation?

And of course the obligatory "yer either wit us or yer against us." Try a little harder next time. Or better yet move to Iran where you can torture till your hearts content.