[semiaccurate] Coffee Lake points to issues with Intel’s 10nm process

[DrMrLordX]

The guy that got banned got banned from the AMD Subreddit for posting the magazine pics.

Why did he get banned from r/AMD? Some kind of copyright violation rule there or . . . ?

6c skl instead of 4c is super.

Maybe from a cost PoV, but otherwise, no. Skylake-X gives us that in Q3 2017, and we can already get 6c Broadwell on LGA2011-v3 today. It isn't THAT great.

• Kaby-Lake as well as Cannon-Lake were supposedly late designs just to save face and management was just hoping AMD wouldn't compete. Cannon-Lake is said to bring almost no architectural improvements.

What about Coffee Lake? Does it say anything about that?

My head hurts. Anyone mind explaining which chip does what? I'm a desktop user so with tick-tock-tock I expected the one after Kaby to be 10nm. Is that still correct? We've had BW-SL-KL so although BW was hardly released for desktop, we seem to have come to the end of 14nm?

See krumme's response, but you are not alone. Intel's lineup has become confusing, especially with the desynch between mobile, desktop, HEDT, and server offerings.

Looking at the article and the 10nm woes they might skip cannon lake and go straight to ice lake.

It looks like Cannon Lake will skip desktop anyway, not sure if we'll see it in HEDT or server/workstation form.

Right now AMD has stated that ARM will be restricted to semi-custom based on customer requirement.

Judging by the lackluster support for Seattle, that makes sense.

 

[Abwx]

The way I see it AMD focussed on x86 as they know its going to be their bread and butter. In fact Lisa Su pulled the plug on ARM K12 to focus their meagre resources on x86 Zen. Right now AMD has stated that ARM will be restricted to semi-custom based on customer requirement.

We ll surely have some news at some point, on the intel side they are currently designing a CPU that can execute both X86 and ARM ISAs, it was published on the last edition of Canard PC, and they have reliable sources...

 

[mikk]

Maybe from a cost PoV, but otherwise, no. Skylake-X gives us that in Q3 2017, and we can already get 6c Broadwell on LGA2011-v3 today. It isn't THAT great.

+50% cores for the mainstream platform is a huge deal. The are several benefits the high end platform can't deliver equally: Cost, power consumption, efficiency, iGPU, newest µarch.

 

[DrMrLordX]

+50% cores for the mainstream platform is a huge deal. The are several benefits the high end platform can't deliver equally: Cost, power consumption, efficiency, iGPU, newest µarch.

Sadly I am not sure there will be any major difference core-per-core between Skylake-X and Coffee Lake. Sure you get an iGPU (presumably) with all the encode/decode bells and whistles, great. But they will likely be same process (14nm+ or 14nm++), and the only reason why you're saving power on the mainstream platform is that you have dual channel rather than quad channel RAM. There is also the possibility that Intel will cancel k-class CPUs on the mainstream side to try to drive all those people into HEDT. KabyLake-X hints at this possibility.

You will save money, and if you want to use a dGPU you don't gain much from the iGPU. Of course I do love me an iGPU! Especially a good one. We'll see what comes from Intel licensing tech from RTG, if anything. It probably won't make it into Coffee Lake though.

If 6c/12t Coffee Lake can also ship with Iris Pro + eDRAM then maybe we have an interesting product. I expect no eDRAM on the HEDT platform.

 

[jpiniero]

What about Coffee Lake? Does it say anything about that?

I think he meant Coffee Lake, not Cannonlake. Cannonlake has been in the works for a long time. My guess was that it was supposed to be the "Core Phone" processor but that part of it is obviously dead now.

+50% cores for the mainstream platform is a huge deal. The are several benefits the high end platform can't deliver equally: Cost, power consumption, efficiency, iGPU, newest µarch.

Ironically enough, with Skylake-X the HEDT platform will be on a 'newer' arch.

 

[mikk]

Sadly I am not sure there will be any major difference core-per-core between Skylake-X and Coffee Lake.

You told we can already get 6c Broadwell, there is a difference between Skylake and Broadwell.

the only reason why you're saving power on the mainstream platform is that you have dual channel rather than quad channel RAM.

No, there are other reasons beside this. The bigger uncore is one factor, also the platform (mainboards) itself draws much more. A bigger L3 and memory channel won't help either. A 6C Mainstream will be much more efficient than a HEDT 6C.

There is also the possibility that Intel will cancel k-class CPUs on the mainstream side to try to drive all those people into HEDT. KabyLake-X hints at this possibility.

That reminds me of the "Intel won't bring Kabylake K-SKUs because of Kabylake-X" nonsense some time ago. ´We know how things turned out. Laughable.

 

[DrMrLordX]

You told we can already get 6c Broadwell, there is a difference between Skylake and Broadwell.

Right, as in, you can get 6c Broadwell right now. By the time Coffee Lake is out, Skylake-X 6c will be what, 2-3 months old? Enjoy the 2.7% IPC gain either way? At least Coffee Lake 6c and Skylake-X 6c should clock higher than the 6800k.

No, there are other reasons beside this. The bigger uncore is one factor, also the platform (mainboards) itself draws much more. A bigger L3 and memory channel won't help either. A 6C Mainstream will be much more efficient than a HEDT 6C

You do realize that all those things that draw power (including the extra power from running quad channel) also improve performance, right? Maybe there's someone out there who wants less L3 to save power, but I certainly don't.

That reminds me of the "Intel won't bring Kabylake K-SKUs because of Kabylake-X" nonsense some time ago. ´We know how things turned out. Laughable.

Who said that? They were projecting Kabylake-k from months out. We already lost desktop Skylake-C despite it showing up on roadmaps some time ago (which is a shame really). Intel may be forced to push Coffee Lake-k just to fend off Zen/Zen+ but we'll see.

 

[moonbogg]

Skylake-X is almost a full YEAR out so its not even on the radar. Skylake-X is basically a 2018 product and coffee lake will take forever as well. Intel people are simply stuck with boring old quads and hugely overpriced 8 cores. All eyes and wallets are on Zen for the next solid year.

 

[Ajay]

Did SKL-X get pushed out again? I thought the revised timeline was 2017Q3 😵

 

[Arachnotronic]

Did SKL-X get pushed out again? I thought the revised timeline was 2017Q3 😵

The latest on SKL-X

Intel is planning to unveil its next-generation top-end Skylake-X and Kaby Lake-X series CPUs in the third quarter of 2017, succeeding the existing Broadwell-E series with a price range between NT$15,000-57,000 (US$468-1,780). Intel may debut the two series at Gamescom 2017 in Germany in August.

At the same time, Intel is ready to announce the full series of its Kaby Lake processors at CES 2017, starting January 4, 2017. Intel already began shipping many of its Kaby Lake-S series processors including Core i7-7700K in December.

http://www.digitimes.com/news/a20161208PD201.html?mod=3&q=SKYLAKE-X

 

[Ajay]

The latest on SKL-X
http://www.digitimes.com/news/a20161208PD201.html?mod=3&q=SKYLAKE-X

Thanks - so it's still a 2017 product 🙂

 

[moonbogg]

Thanks - so it's still a 2017 product 🙂

Yeah but barely. Its revealed in the third quarter, so can't be bought until around the fourth. That's close enough to a full year for me to completely ignore the hell out of the thing.

 

[Ajay]

Curious why the date was moved out in the first place. Is KBL-X also pushed out?

 

[beginner99]

The worst case can be quite catastrophic for them.

Exactly. If you fuck up in tech sector it can go downhill pretty quickly.

The Intel case is also a case why CEO should indeed make millions per year. Because if they fuck up, it will cost the company billions and thousands of jobs. It also explains why giving such a loser a golden parachute isn't a bad idea. Saves more money in the long run to get him out the door ASAP.

I remember the days we got cool tech news from intel about new uArch stuff, invention of tri-gate transistors and so forth. Now it's all quiet. Even info on 3D Xpoint is pretty sparse. Doesn't exactly make me confident they have anything good coming from them. So yeah GI hope the give him the boot and they can recover.

The bright side is that we now might actually get some competition again because they might have let AMD to catch up.

 

[mikk]

You do realize that all those things that draw power (including the extra power from running quad channel) also improve performance, right? Maybe there's someone out there who wants less L3 to save power, but I certainly don't.

You do realize that these there is little use from the extra L3 cache over the Mainstream platform, at least for typical client use cases. Quad Channcel as well. For gaming a fast RAM helps but given that there are cheap DDR4-3000+ OC bundles available a Dualchannel is fine. There are several reasons why a HEDT SKU cannot have the same power efficiency.

Who said that? They were projecting Kabylake-k from months out. We already lost desktop Skylake-C despite it showing up on roadmaps some time ago (which is a shame really). Intel may be forced to push Coffee Lake-k just to fend off Zen/Zen+ but we'll see.

Several news pages and people in this forum claimed this, they assumed that Intel cancels K- products with Kabylake-S because of SKL-X/KBL-X. Basically exactly what you are claiming now. That's why it is so hilarious.

 

[IntelUser2000]

Curious why the date was moved out in the first place. Is KBL-X also pushed out?

Was it? The HEDT platforms were always a quarter off from server chips it derived from. It is possibly that?

Also this KBL-X/SKL-X/CFL-X thing is confusing. KBL-X has an iGPU, so does CFL-X. The generation is same for the GPU. KBL-X and SKL-X has same process. Then there is KBL-K. What's the difference from KBL-X?

KBL-X: KBL-K on an HEDT platform.
Why can't they say SKL-X is KBL-X without the iGPU?
Why isn't CFL-X KBL-X with 6 cores?

It's like the code names are made to make us think there's a big difference. IMO in truth even Icelake and Tigerlake chips will bring minor gains because they are all -lakes. The change we thought was already small with Skylake won't be seen until chips after that. Sapphire Rapid it's called?

CFL: 2017 - Tick
CNL: 2018 - Tick
Icelake: 2019 - Tick
Tigerlake: 2020 - Tick
Sapphire Rapid: 2021 - Tock

So nothing until late 2021 or even early 2022. Got it. This is exactly like with the original Athlon. Real threat from Intel did not arrive until 6 years later in 2006 with Core. 2016 Zen threat lasts until 2022.

 

[jpiniero]

Was it? The HEDT platforms were always a quarter off from server chips it derived from. It is possibly that?

Keep in mind Skylake-X is not based upon the server chips entirely. It "only" has quad channel memory and presumably doesn't have the new chip interconnect either.

Also this KBL-X/SKL-X/CFL-X thing is confusing. KBL-X has an iGPU, so does CFL-X. The generation is same for the GPU. KBL-X and SKL-X has same process. Then there is KBL-K. What's the difference from KBL-X?

You can't use the IGP on Kaby-X or (presumably) Coffee-X. It'll be disabled.

KBL-X: KBL-K on an HEDT platform.
Why can't they say SKL-X is KBL-X without the iGPU?
Why isn't CFL-X KBL-X with 6 cores?

Skylake-X is using the Skylake Server cores which are different from the mainstream ones.

There may be some changes to Coffee Lake, not major ones or even to the CPU core.

 

[IntelUser2000]

Keep in mind Skylake-X is not based upon the server chips entirely. It "only" has quad channel memory and presumably doesn't have the new chip interconnect either.

That's not the case with current chips. They are merely disabled.

You can't use the IGP on Kaby-X or (presumably) Coffee-X. It'll be disabled.

You are right on the former. Not the latter. Documents point out its a 6+2. GT2 iGPU(My estimations about Intel using iGPU on future HEDT chips, even server comes to mind).

Also how do they expect to raise the frequency? They'll just up it to 4.4/4.7 from 4.2/4.5 but with same over clocking headroom? People would go buy that? A 4 core factory overclocked CPU?

Not having an iGPU doesn't explain the X vs S or K. KBL-X likely has it only disabled and it's same die as S or K.

Skylake-X is using the Skylake Server cores which are different from the mainstream ones.

If that's true why not just make a cut down SKL-X? Rather than KBL-X ?

There may be some changes to Coffee Lake, not major ones or even to the CPU core.

The only time code names changed was architectural or process changes. Right, I remember now. CFL-X will use 14++.

Marketing increases hype over time while products become less and less impressive. A decade ago, anything less than 50% increase in GPU weren't hyped. Nowadays, even 20% gains brought by super pricey Iris ones are.

 

[jpiniero]

You are right on the former. Not the latter. Documents point out its a 6+2. GT2 iGPU(My estimations about Intel using iGPU on future HEDT chips, even server comes to mind).

My assumption at this point is that the Coffee-X is using the same die as Coffee-S but the IGP would still be disabled.

Also how do they expect to raise the frequency? They'll just up it to 4.4/4.7 from 4.2/4.5 but with same over clocking headroom? People would go buy that? A 4 core factory overclocked CPU?

Presumably it will be binned to overclock higher as well. The difference in price between the 7700K and the HEDT Kaby-X shouldn't be too much.

If that's true why not just make a cut down SKL-X? Rather than KBL-X ?

Making another die would cost money of course.

 

[mikk]

Labeling Icelake as Tick generation-->LOL

 

[DrMrLordX]

Yeah but barely. Its revealed in the third quarter, so can't be bought until around the fourth. That's close enough to a full year for me to completely ignore the hell out of the thing.

I don't think Intel can afford to delay for that long, given the circumstances . . . but given that Coffee Lake hasn't even been on the roadmaps that long, I would still estimate that Skylake-X will be out 2-3 months before Coffee Lake, at least.

You do realize that these there is little use from the extra L3 cache over the Mainstream platform

. . . what? You miss all those game benchmarks where the 5960x was beating the 4790 and 6700 (note minus k here; no OC) because of L3? Unlike on AM3+, all that extra L3 on LGA-2011 v3 really helps in "mainstream" workloads.

at least for typical client use cases.

Is anyone around here a typical client? I sure hope not. For that matter, what kind of "typical client" buys a k-class chip? Usually that kind of buyer wants as much performance as they can get without going LN2.

Quad Channcel as well.

It's less useful than the L3, but it still has some value.

For gaming a fast RAM helps but given that there are cheap DDR4-3000+ OC bundles available a Dualchannel is fine. There are several reasons why a HEDT SKU cannot have the same power efficiency.

Well, if my previous posts didn't communicate it well enough . . . ah heck on efficiency. An extra 40-50W for some more punch is fine by me. It's the platform cost that makes Intel HEDT a bitter pill to swallow sometimes, especially on chips like the 5820k that aren't that much more expensive than things like the 4790k (for example).

Several news pages and people in this forum claimed this, they assumed that Intel cancels K- products with Kabylake-S because of SKL-X/KBL-X. Basically exactly what you are claiming now. That's why it is so hilarious.

We'll see then. But the writing's on the wall, k-chips may not last forever . . . unless, as I stated above, Summit Ridge forces their hand.

Keep in mind Skylake-X is not based upon the server chips entirely. It "only" has quad channel memory and presumably doesn't have the new chip interconnect either.

Isn't Skylake when Intel will finally have a total split between the HEDT lineup and the Server lineup? e.g. no Purley for HEDT?

There may be some changes to Coffee Lake, not major ones or even to the CPU core.

At this point, it's impossible to tell. Coffee Lake hasn't even been on the radar for that long.

 

[frozentundra123456]

+50% cores for the mainstream platform is a huge deal. The are several benefits the high end platform can't deliver equally: Cost, power consumption, efficiency, iGPU, newest µarch.

Yea, intel cant win. They get criticized for not having "moar cores" on the mainstream platform and forcing people onto the HEDT platform, but when they supposedly are going to do it, that suddenly is not a step forward because you can get it on the HEDT platform already. Huh?? Kind of like being married, you get criticized for not doing something, but then if you do it, you get criticized for doing it wrong!!! (just kidding, sort of)

Edit: that said, Intel *is* executing very poorly it seems. We should have been on 10 nm by now or very close, and all the delays and interim models are making the line-up extremely disorganized and confusing.

 

[DrMrLordX]

Yea, intel cant win.

Sure they can, they're winning right now. Might not last but I wouldn't count them out. Next year or two could be rough though.

They get criticized for not having "moar cores"

No, they get criticized for:

1). Re-using the same core at least 3 times (Skylake, Kabylake, Coffeelake/Coffee Lake/whatever)
2). Waiting all the way until Coffeelake - Q1 2018?!?!? - to finally deliver 6c on the mainstream socket with (if mikk is correct) less L3 than what you get on HEDT and (presumably) no eDRAM since eDRAM has been scrubbed from the desktop almost completely.

Intel should have already released 6c on the mainstream desktop platform. It's silly for someone to say the 6c/12t is "huge" when it's long overdue. If a firefighter sits there for 5 minutes watching a house burn for no good reason before deciding to do something about it, it isn't "huge" when he finally starts to put out the fire. It's belated at best, obnoxious at worst.

At this point, if you're going Intel, it's like . . . why not get a 5820k and be done with it? Or a 6800k once the prices go down. Go ahead and wait, you'll have plenty of time.

that suddenly is not a step forward because you can get it on the HEDT platform already.

You have noticed that the market is about to change . . . right? If there's anything "sudden", it was that.

Edit: that said, Intel *is* executing very poorly it seems. We should have been on 10 nm by now or very close, and all the delays and interim models are making the line-up extremely disorganized and confusing.

Intel isn't the only firm having problems with 10nm.

 

[jpiniero]

Well if you remember the original Cannonlake leak from LinkedIn had Intel doing 2/4/8 core SoCs. Now that doesn't mean the desktop would have gotten the 8 core but the option would have been there.

When they decided to delay Cannonlake by a year they had to do something, and that was Kabylake.
When they decided to only do the 2 core version, they had to do something for the other mainstream markets, and that was Coffee Lake.

 

[mikk]

. . . what? You miss all those game benchmarks where the 5960x was beating the 4790 and 6700 (note minus k here; no OC) because of L3? Unlike on AM3+, all that extra L3 on LGA-2011 v3 really helps in "mainstream" workloads.

I didn't miss them, for gaming the 8C version is useful for games with a good scaling over 4C, that's it. Bandwidth is a bigger factor btw. It can bring a nice boost in some games, faster RAM does it for Dualchannel.

At the same core clock and core count HEDT SKU won't achieve the same efficiency for obvious reasons. Current mainstream SKUs are basically a mobile design. 6C and beyond is nothing special for HEDT, for the Mainstream platform it is a big deal. If you are really denying this then I only can say you have no clue.