Selecting good(and affordable) tile

[Turin39789]

It looks like we will be moving forward with our kitchen project in our starter house. We plan to order some RTA cabinets in the next few days and then begin demo on the existing cabinets, taking down a brick(ish) wall and putting drywall back up, running gas for a new stove and putting in tile.

My next big concern is selecting the tile. I'm helping friends do their own kitchen(with the same RTA cabinets) and they have what looks like perfectly nice porcelain tile that they got for $1.09 at lowes. I helped their dad lay the main part of the floor on sunday, and so far so good. Haven't had the chance to do tile cuts yet though.

In looking for a tile, there is routinely some for sale at the big boxes for 79 cents or 99 cents, and others that run up to $3-4 . Other than asthetics and getting in to natural stone how can I tell where the quality really drops off? We had originally talked about slate but I don't think it makes sense anymore and we will probably end up with porcelain of some sort with a stone-ish look with some gray in it.

Advice welcome.

 

[vi edit]

Slate looks good, but it's virtually impossible to keep clean, is dirty by nature (sloughs off) and can be very slippery when wet.

That being said, we just had close to 400 sq/ft of the $.79 porcelain tile from Home Depot installed in our new home. Tile guy had no complaints. The tile shops were selling the same stuff for $2.00 a sq/ft and would tell you horror stories about how it's not the same thickness, it's dimensions were off, it's b-stock...blah blah blah. Our installer never had an issue.

Only issue I found with the cheapies is that it's hard to get bullnose for them to do edges/corners/ect if you need it. We had to go to a specialty shop for that and the die lots were bit off and the color isn't exact. It's close...but not a perfect match. If I was just doing a floor then I wouldn't feel concerned about buying the closeout stuff at the big box stores.

 

[IHateMyJob2004]

Porcelin coated is fine. Only hte surface is porcelin. That's what we ended up with. Got it at Lowe's.

For what it is worth, your goiong to spend alot on this. Don't save $40 on tile by choosing your second favorite. Buy what you want.

My kitchen was redone probably to the tune of $15-$20K. I did almost all of the work. When spending this kind of money, even an extra $1K is worth it.

Are you talking floors or counters? FWIW, I do not understand why people tile counters. It is cheap and the groute lines ultimately get dirty. We did a high end formica and love it.

 

[Turin39789]

Porcelin coated is fine. Only hte surface is porcelin. That's what we ended up with. Got it at Lowe's.

For what it is worth, your goiong to spend alot on this. Don't save $40 on tile by choosing your second favorite. Buy what you want.

My kitchen was redone probably to the tune of $15-$20K. I did almost all of the work. When spending this kind of money, even an extra $1K is worth it.

Are you talking floors or counters? FWIW, I do not understand why people tile counters. It is cheap and the groute lines ultimately get dirty. We did a high end formica and love it.

Talking floors, the annoying part is that it is an older home (late 40's early 50's) with oak floors in most of the house. The kitchen currently has a brown linoleum/vinyl(Ireallydontknow it appears to have no seams) that I really don't think looks that bad(but I still want tile) and there is a great room addition that was done for about 500 sq ft that is in 18 inch porcelain white shiny with some very faint gray swirl and trying to find something that will go with a honey colored shaker cabinet and will not look horrible next to the white tile is going to be a pain. I like the idea of all the white tile disappearing but I don't like the idea of tearing out functioning tile.

We started off looking at laminate(this is our starter 5 year house that will will end up in for 7), but we want to do a table/bar with a rounded end and that looks like ass in laminate and the edge drives the cost up so that we were into decent formica/corian(love the integral sink) at home depot for $39/sq ft, but we were at builders surplus and their instock granite was cheaper than that so who knows what we will end up with. Just have to decide in the next week.

So far definetly reassuring that I won't feel the need to throw away extra money on tile just to get the price up for additional peace of mind.

Although I think I'm going to give up on convincing the wife that I can learn to run a gas line for the new stove and let someone else install it.

 

[sdifox]

fix subfloor before you tile. You don't want cracks after you installed the tiles.

 

[Turin39789]

fix subfloor before you tile. You don't want cracks after you installed the tiles.

any elaboration? When I helped my friends father they pulled up one layer of vinyl then put down concrete board and then tiled. I believe he wedged a few things under the concrete board as he went to try and level it.

 

[sdifox]

any elaboration? When I helped my friends father they pulled up one layer of vinyl then put down concrete board and then tiled. I believe he wedged a few things under the concrete board as he went to try and level it.

basically check that there is no flex on the sub-floor. so if a section of sub-floor is not rock solid, you create a weak point for the quickset and tile to crack. screwed it down tight if possible, rip up (the weak section, not the whole floor) and reinforce then re-board if not.

 

[Turin39789]

basically check that there is no flex on the sub-floor. so if a section of sub-floor is not rock solid, you create a weak point for the quickset and tile to crack. screwed it down tight if possible, rip up (the weak section, not the whole floor) and reinforce then re-board if not.

gotcha

 

[Squisher]

There is actually a standard for floor deformation under load that can tell if your floor is suitable for tile.

Might I suggest John P Bridge's Tile Your World as a good book to get on the subject. He also has a website with a very large forum that I have found invaluable for getting answers. http://www.johnbridge.com/


btw-there is a tile underlayment subfloor made to make any floor suitable, but I believe it's 1 1/8" thick and so you see a 3/8" elevation increase on the tiled floor. This can be somewhat hidden by transition strips.

 

[Vette73]

Also use a good thinset. Don;t use pre-mixed stuff.

Check out costco as they have had marble and other natural stone for a good price.

 

[drnickriviera]

any elaboration? When I helped my friends father they pulled up one layer of vinyl then put down concrete board and then tiled. I believe he wedged a few things under the concrete board as he went to try and level it.

wedged it? You did put a layer of thinset down first then put the cement backer on top? You can used their special screws to hold it down, but I prefer roofing nails. Cheaper and faster. You can also consider a decoupling membrane like Ditra. I believe home depot sells it. That takes the place of the cement backer board.

Some tips for picking a tile:
a. Porcelain is harder than regular ceramic tile. They have PEI ratings for harness from 1-5 although just about everything is 5 these days. Porcelain is harder to cut. You need wet blades made to cut porcelain. I've never heard of a porcelain coating, IHMJ04 must be talking about a glazed porcelain tile.
b. Shade lots. This is why I rarely buy tile at the box stores. The boxes will be stamped with a shade lot code. Try to get them all the same. Colors can vary greatly between lots. If they don't have enough for your project, don't let them say 'Oh store 123 has 5 more boxes, you can get the rest there' Have them order you a complete pallet and take everything off that.
c. Sizing. Hold 2 pieces of tile from different boxes face to face and try to rock them to make sure the tile isn't cupped. Take a straight edge and put it on the sides to make sure they aren't bowed. I've had some where the tile flared out at the corners. Next measure both dimensions on multiple tiles. I want tiles that vary no more than 2-3mm.

Some other tips for installation.
a. Take the tile spacers and toss them in the trash. Snap out a chalk line grid on the floor. I use a 2 tile X 2 tile grid. It allows you to see how the tile is going to layout and make changes before you lay any tile.
b. When mixing the thinset. Use a scale and a measuring cup. Weight out the dry mix in whatever quantity you want, then measure the water (cold water not hot). This allows you to get a consistent mix from start to finish. If you play it by ear, one batch will be runny and the tiles will set down in the thinset more causing lippage.

i'll think of some more things and add them in tonight

 

[IndyColtsFan]

My kitchen was redone probably to the tune of $15-$20K. I did almost all of the work. When spending this kind of money, even an extra $1K is worth it.

That $15K to $20K wasn't just the flooring, was it?

We need to have our kitchen, dining area, and main hall floors redone. The wife wants tile but hasn't found a color she likes with our cabinets and countertops. It is going to be expensive, so I am really impressing on her that she gets no do-overs. I suspect that our sub-floor would need to be replaced, since we're on a crawl and I am not sure if it is plywood or cement board. The installer told us it had to be cement board and if it isn't, it needs to be replaced.

I'm anxious to get it done though -- that and the upstairs carpet are the last major indoor projects at our house.

 

[amdskip]

I wouldn't pay any attention to brand. Here's my most recent project: http://picasaweb.google.com/skippysg/HouseInProgress#5521389929864718466

If you look at other pictures in there you can see the floor going down too.

You need to determine your flooring deflection using this: http://www.johnbridge.com/vbulletin/deflecto.pl Chances are good that you will need to beef your structure up first. Always use thinset on your floor tile, not mastic. John Bridge tile forum is extremely helpful and they are on top of their game there.

 

[Turin39789]

wedged it? You did put a layer of thinset down first then put the cement backer on top? You can used their special screws to hold it down, but I prefer roofing nails. Cheaper and faster. You can also consider a decoupling membrane like Ditra. I believe home depot sells it. That takes the place of the cement backer board.

Some tips for picking a tile:
a. Porcelain is harder than regular ceramic tile. They have PEI ratings for harness from 1-5 although just about everything is 5 these days. Porcelain is harder to cut. You need wet blades made to cut porcelain. I've never heard of a porcelain coating, IHMJ04 must be talking about a glazed porcelain tile.
b. Shade lots. This is why I rarely buy tile at the box stores. The boxes will be stamped with a shade lot code. Try to get them all the same. Colors can vary greatly between lots. If they don't have enough for your project, don't let them say 'Oh store 123 has 5 more boxes, you can get the rest there' Have them order you a complete pallet and take everything off that.
c. Sizing. Hold 2 pieces of tile from different boxes face to face and try to rock them to make sure the tile isn't cupped. Take a straight edge and put it on the sides to make sure they aren't bowed. I've had some where the tile flared out at the corners. Next measure both dimensions on multiple tiles. I want tiles that vary no more than 2-3mm.

Some other tips for installation.
a. Take the tile spacers and toss them in the trash. Snap out a chalk line grid on the floor. I use a 2 tile X 2 tile grid. It allows you to see how the tile is going to layout and make changes before you lay any tile.
b. When mixing the thinset. Use a scale and a measuring cup. Weight out the dry mix in whatever quantity you want, then measure the water (cold water not hot). This allows you to get a consistent mix from start to finish. If you play it by ear, one batch will be runny and the tiles will set down in the thinset more causing lippage.

i'll think of some more things and add them in tonight

I wasn't there for most of the concrete board, but no I don't believe he used thinset under the backerboard. IIRC screws were ~2" with square heads. I'm going to need to look into this more and make sure I get it done right. Planning on tiling wall to wall while we have the cabinets out.

Roofing nails are probable cheaper but right now as someone who is going to have to try pulling out our cabinets that were hung with nails instead of screws, I am not a fan of nails. Goal is to get them out intact and drop them off at habitat so they can be reused.

a - I believe the first one they picked up(according to them) was a PEI 3, they ended up with a PEI 4

b - good advice and already planned on
c- good advice and already planned on. A little curious about how many boxes I will be allowed to open before buying.


installation -
a- I know it is possible to do without tile spacers but currently feeling that as a noob I should rely on them. We are planning on 12 inch tiles, how do you account for the grout space with the chalk line grid?


b - sounds consistent but are measurements listed on the package or do you just add water a few cups at a time until you have the right mixture and then remember that measurement?

 

[amdskip]

I would use the spacers but also snap lines if you are trying to keep the room straight. 3/16" is what I would use for 12x12 tiles but it depends on what it is. 1/4" just looks too big imho.

I do not measure for thinset. I put some water in the bucket, add thinset, mix and then see what I have. I keep adding thinset until I have the desired amount I am going after and a mix that won't fall off my trowel immediately when I turn it sideways. It takes a bit to get used to but you get a real feel for this.

 

[Patranus]

There are certain things that you shouldn't skimp on such as tile.

Things like sinks, fixtures, paint, lighting, appliances, ect are easily replaceable at a future date.

Cabinets, flooring, tile, counters, ect are not easily replaceable.

I would shy away from faux rock porcelain as if you chip it, you will see the white porcelain. If you chip a true rock tile, you will se rock.

 

[swerus]

Quality in tile is like pretty much any other flooring material. Best to get your hands on them and see.

The cheap tiles at HD and Lowes chip and break a lot easier, and I find I have a lot more waste using them. The finish holds up pretty well. Depending on the style it will most likely look dated before wear is an issue.

Either way labor is way more expensive than cheap tile. Medium grade tile will be around $2.50-$3.00 a sq ft.

 

[eldorado99]

basically check that there is no flex on the sub-floor. so if a section of sub-floor is not rock solid, you create a weak point for the quickset and tile to crack. screwed it down tight if possible, rip up (the weak section, not the whole floor) and reinforce then re-board if not.

Can also just strengthen the subfloor, sometimes another layer of plywood is needed. Proper way IMO. Also be sure it is level.

 

[swerus]

There is actually a standard for floor deformation under load that can tell if your floor is suitable for tile.

Might I suggest John P Bridge's Tile Your World as a good book to get on the subject. He also has a website with a very large forum that I have found invaluable for getting answers. http://www.johnbridge.com/


btw-there is a tile underlayment subfloor made to make any floor suitable, but I believe it's 1 1/8" thick and so you see a 3/8" elevation increase on the tiled floor. This can be somewhat hidden by transition strips.

I always put down backerboard unless its concrete I am laying over usually 1/2 inch for floors.

 

[Turin39789]

Can also just strengthen the subfloor, sometimes another layer of plywood is needed. Proper way IMO. Also be sure it is level.

Will see what we have once we get all the old torn out, already noticed my floor to ceiling measurement was 95" I believe.

So plan is -

tear out cabinets and tear up vinyl.
inspect subfloor and joist support for deflection
if ok, thinset and hardiboard
then thinset, make ridges, backbutter each tile?, press into place
once all square tiles are down start measuring and cutting odd ones.
let sit for 2 days
grout
seal grout

bring on the cabinets.

 

[amdskip]

then thinset, make ridges, backbutter each tile?, press into place

You put the thinset on the cement board, not the tile. Thicker cement board on the floor does not give you more strength so 1/4" is all that is needed. Personally I would screw the cement board, not nail. Screws hold and won't back out or loosen over time and just make everything that much more stiffer.

 

[swerus]

Screws can also a pita to set. I always us roofing nails in my coil nailer. Way faster too.

 

[BoomerD]

There are certain things that you shouldn't skimp on such as tile.

Things like sinks, fixtures, paint, lighting, appliances, ect are easily replaceable at a future date.

Cabinets, flooring, tile, counters, ect are not easily replaceable.

I would shy away from faux rock porcelain as if you chip it, you will see the white porcelain. If you chip a true rock tile, you will se rock.

That last bit applies to all tile. Look at your tile. If it's different color on the top and bottom, any chip will be very noticable...and chips happen. All it takes is a dropped coffee cup or plate, hitting just right, and you have a chip. If you have terra cotta colored tile with a beige glaze over it...you'll have a red spot where the chip is. MUCH better to spend a bit more and find tile that's the same color all the way through.

 

[drnickriviera]

The nails are there to hold it down the backer board down while the thinset sets. Think about it. All that holds your tile down is the thinset. If you were to skip the thinset below the cement backer, then i'd screw it down. I'd rather use screws for everything too, but I don't feel they are needed here. It saves time and money.

You add the grout spacing into the chalk grid layout. If your tile is 40mm, I add 4mm for a grout joint. So i'll snap lines at 88mm, 2 grout joints. (I use metric tapes for all my tile work, it's so much easier + most tile I lay is metric) That way the tile edge will line up with 2 of the lines. You then have to ask yourself why you need spacers now. This is the way the pros do it and can save you some headaches and make a more professional job. You now get to see where every piece of tile is going from start to finish. It will tell you if your walls are out of square and allow you to compensate.

It's usually only my brother and I when we lay tile. I lay all the tile, he cuts and keeps me fed with tile. I don't like going back to lay cut pieces. If you've already spread the thinset, it will have dried out. If you don't put thinset down and you have a narrow tile there, you can't get your trowel in there to spread it. You are left putting the thinset on the tile.

On 12" tile it is debatable, but i'd go ahead and backbutter them. You get a much better bond. If you wet cut any tiles, make sure you dry them with a towel before backbuttering or laying. The thinset will not stick to wet tile.

Each mfg will be a bit different with mixing instructions, some are 5qts per bag some 4qts. They always list it on the bag If i'm in an open area i'll mix 25lbs at a time. I just find it so much easier. weight 25lbs, dump in 2.5 qts and mix. No add a little more water, opps too much add a bit of thinset. Be sure to mix slowly. You're not making whipped cream. You don't want air bubbles entrained in the thinset.

 

[DrPizza]

We did the tiles from HD when they were on sale. (And the 4x4" tiles for the backsplash match the floor tiles.) It probably doesn't sound like a lot, but if you're willing to stockpile the materials for up to a year & purchase them as they go on sale, you can often save 20% or more on the entire project (for materials.) Labor is another thing. I enjoy the satisfaction of doing it myself, and on my tile flooring job, that's resulted in I have to redo about 4 tiles. I was juuuuuust a little bit short on thinset & decided to stretch it so I wouldn't have to mix a batch for just one tile. Mistake. Now those 4 tiles where I stretched it need to come out, a bit of cleanup, and reset them & regrout that area. Considering I saved at least 5k (if not more) in labor, I think I'm still pretty far ahead.