Securom on Games

[Red Irish]

chizow, Aberforth et. al (read EA employees and other Securom apologists) I'm posting the series of questions below again in order to provide you with an opportunity to explain your stance on the permanence of Securom on the user's system. I apologise for the repeat posting, but the conspicuos silence from individuals who are normally extremely outspoken in their defence of Securom could be construed as an answer in and of itself. I just want to be sure:

Is it so difficult to remove all traces of Securom during the process of uninstalling the game? This would undoubtedly increase acceptance of Securom amongst the community without preventing this software from functioning as you suggest it should. If the game is no longer on my system, what purpose does security relating specifically to the game serve by remaining on my system?

Please do not respond by stating that the traces that are left are harmless, but rather explain why it is necessary to leave any traces at all once the game has been uninstalled and why it is necessary to manually remove Securom from our systems.

 

[mindcycle]

Originally posted by: Red Irish
chizow, Aberforth et. al (read EA employees and other Securom apologists) I'm posting the series of questions below again in order to provide you with an opportunity to explain your stance on the permanence of Securom on the user's system. I apologise for the repeat posting, but the conspicuos silence from individuals who are normally extremely outspoken in their defence of Securom could be construed as an answer in and of itself. I just want to be sure:

Is it so difficult to remove all traces of Securom during the process of uninstalling the game? This would undoubtedly increase acceptance of Securom amongst the community without preventing this software from functioning as you suggest it should. If the game is no longer on my system, what purpose does security relating specifically to the game serve by remaining on my system?

Please do not respond by stating that the traces that are left are harmless, but rather explain why it is necessary to leave any traces at all once the game has been uninstalled and why it is necessary to manually remove Securom from our systems.

No use trying to find logic behind something that is broken by design. If SecuROM actually worked for it's intended purpose this discussion and countless others like it wouldn't exist.

However, I would like to see a response to that question as well.

 

[JoshGuru7]

Originally posted by: smackababyThe only people who are making this issue an mountain out of a mole hill are people who've also never been adversely effect, yet like to jump on the "hate whatever the hate flavor of the week is" types.

How is this statement logical? It doesn't matter what the debate is, people who are directly affected are going to be highly correlated with the people who argue about it the most strenuously. I've certainly had a negative experience with Securom.

Originally posted by: smackababyNow, while most would state otherwise, DRM does prevent piracy. In order to pirate most mainstream games, one has to be fairly skilled. Back in the old days, you merely needed a CD burner and now all your friends have the game. It was much more rampant, just not nearly as pronounced. Prior to the huge file sharing issue, it was very hard to track who was pirating what.

And yet the PC gaming market is arguably in much worse shape today then it was "back in the old days". The argument that has yet to be successfully made by either you, chizow, or Aberforth is evidence correlating piracy rates with lost revenue. The quantity of goods that a consumer will purchase increases as price lowers based on their [Elasticity of Demand. In a nutshell, I may be willing to buy 10 oranges at $0.25 each, 5 oranges at $1.00 each, 1 orange at $2.00 each, and perhaps none at $5.00 each.

I know this isn't necessarily an obvious concept, so bear with me for a real-world example. A search of any torrent tracker will demonstrate that Tom Clancy's EndWar is currently being downloaded by a lot of people. This tells you that there are say 10,000 people who are willing to pay $0 for EndWar delivered directly to them, at a cost of having to deal with some hassle in cracking the game, downloading the torrents and worrying about possible viruses.

What income bracket and group of users do you think this is most likely to represent? UbiSoft will look at that number and be very quick to claim that they have lost 10,000 sales at $49.99 but basic microeconomics suggests the vast majority of people who choose to play a game at the $0 price point were not going to be purchasing it at the $50 price point anyhow. At the same time, UbiSoft's DRM may negatively affect the users who felt the game was worth $50 in the first place and wanted to avoid the hassle of piracy and risk of viruses or trojans. These are precisely the sort of users who will not be willing to be "flexible" about software that installs Securom and then causes some of the problems mentioned in this thread.

The PC industry clearly has a lot of problems. Non-standard hardware, an aging demographic with machines that lag behind consoles in power, and the much lower popularity of PC-centric RTS games in the US compared to console arcade shooters or racing sims. Piracy could very well be a detriment, especially to highly successful blockbusters that pirates might have been willing to pay more than $0 for. These games succeed anyway, and blaming the current state of the PC industry strictly on piracy is convenient but ill-advised unless you work in the software industry and need a scapegoat.

 

[Red Irish]

Josh, those are extremely valid points. Securom has no effect on piracy, although piracy is used as a pretext by companies for its continued use. I firmly believe that competitive pricing, which is currently not applied, would do far more to deter piracy than any protection software.

I am still waiting for a logical response to the questions I raised in several previous posts (posted again below for convenience):

Is it so difficult to remove all traces of Securom during the process of uninstalling the game? This would undoubtedly increase acceptance of Securom amongst the community without preventing this software from functioning as you suggest it should. If the game is no longer on my system, what purpose does security relating specifically to the game serve by remaining on my system?

Please do not respond by stating that the traces that are left are harmless, but rather explain why it is necessary to leave any traces at all once the game has been uninstalled and why it is necessary to manually remove Securom from our systems.

 

[Aberforth]

Originally posted by: Red Irish
Josh, those are extremely valid points. Securom has no effect on piracy, although piracy is used as a pretext by companies for its continued use. I firmly believe that competitive pricing, which is currently not applied, would do far more to deter piracy than any protection software.

I am still waiting for a logical response to the questions I raised in several previous posts (posted again below for convenience):

Is it so difficult to remove all traces of Securom during the process of uninstalling the game? This would undoubtedly increase acceptance of Securom amongst the community without preventing this software from functioning as you suggest it should. If the game is no longer on my system, what purpose does security relating specifically to the game serve by remaining on my system?

Please do not respond by stating that the traces that are left are harmless, but rather explain why it is necessary to leave any traces at all once the game has been uninstalled and why it is necessary to manually remove Securom from our systems.

Traces are sometimes necessary to check the activation/license status. Please don't bump this thread again.

 

[Red Irish]

Aberforth, I only bumped because chizow, yourself and several other posters, who are normally quite vocal, failed to respond. Your response does nothing to explain why Securom should leave traces on a system. Why are these traces "sometimes necessary"? If the game is no longer installed on my system, Securom has no business checking the activation/license status or any other aspect. Once again, you approach this subject from the point of view of the company rather than the user: it may be "necessary" for the companies shipping this malware, but it sure as hell isn't "necessary" for me. Is it so hard to understand that, other arguments aside, we simply don't want unnecessary crap on our systems? Moreover, the EULA should clearly make reference to the permanent nature of the "protection" software included with the game and the fact that users are forced to jump through a number of hoops if they wish to completely remove Securom from their systems. We buy games, we do not grant permission for the company to install whatever they feel to be "necessary", or at least, that's the way it should work.

 

[Golgatha]

Originally posted by: chizow

Originally posted by: mindcycle
Proof is only useful to chizow if it can be used to prove his point.

My account of problems with Mass Effect can be found somewhere on these forums, I did a search but couldn't find it. I had constant crash issues and "please insert the correct disc" messages when I first installed it. Anyway, that was the last SecuROM "protected" game i've purchased as it was determined to be a SecuROM issue after going back and forth with tech support, user forums, and me fucking with things for hours. I made it a point to never put myself in that position again. That's why I decided to create the list I linked to earlier in this thread.

To those of you standing up for what you believe in and protesting this nonsensical DRM "solution" I applaud you. It's all to easy to just do nothing an hope things change, but we all know that won't happen without challenging the misinformed idea's people have about these invasive DRM solutions.

Uh, correct disc? Mass Effect only has one disc. If that single disc didn't work, you probably could've narrowed it down to perhaps a defective disc. Or if it was an actual SecuROM problem, perhaps you had some virtualization or CD cloning software installed. In any case, SecuROM clearly doesn't guarantee against user-error or general incompetence.

Are you saying that installing and using a virtual drive from a legitimate software publisher is somehow equal to user-error or incompetence? I'll be damned if I willingly allow any corporate entity to say what software should or should not be installed on my PC.

As far as Securom goes, I'm glad the "pirates" release cracks for SP games because I hate having to get discs out to play a SP game. For MP, I'll use an image if it will work with Securom. Not only is this convenient, but it keeps me from lugging around any expensive discs to LAN parties.

I think the route EA took with Securom on Red Alert 3 was eventually the most fair to consumers and EA. Basically you install the game, allow it to authorize the software via the Internet, and you never need the game disc again except to reinstall if needed. A deauthorization tool is provided in case you want to uninstall and resell the game. I've got no problem with scenario other than it's a bunch of unnecessary hoops for legitimate customers to jump through, while the pirates never have to deal with any of this BS. Also, the deauthorization tool didn't come until lots of public outcry was voiced, which I believe is the overall theme of this thread; making your voice heard and not allowing the corporations to do whatever they please.

DRM is here to stay, but I'm glad there are "pirates" out there who release tools\cracks\etc to free the masses from the inconveniences of DRM.

 

[Golgatha]

Originally posted by: Aberforth
man...I hate these single issue activists who register just to spread fud.

Although Red Irish has a definite bias towards absolutely no DRM in his Top Ten bad things about Securom OP, I would say I also agree with his general sentiments. Securom only effects legitimate users (aka paying customers) in negative ways because pirates strip it from their warez releases, it is very ineffective as referenced by day zero pirate releases for Securom "protected" games, it degrades system performance to varying degrees, and it has the very real possibility of causing system damage in various forms (system security, DRM software instability, decreased system performance, refusing to run legally purchased software based on a blacklist of other software installed on the system, etc).

Overall, I'd say most of the anti-DRM posts here are accurate and the OP has valid concerns about Securom. I share his/her concerns, so tack one up for someone who's been a contributor to these forums for 5.5 years, and certainly feels this is an important topic that should be discussed on open forums in a meaningful way.

 

[mindcycle]

Originally posted by: Aberforth

Originally posted by: Red Irish
Is it so difficult to remove all traces of Securom during the process of uninstalling the game? This would undoubtedly increase acceptance of Securom amongst the community without preventing this software from functioning as you suggest it should. If the game is no longer on my system, what purpose does security relating specifically to the game serve by remaining on my system?

Traces are sometimes necessary to check the activation/license status. Please don't bump this thread again.

Yes, lets not bump the thread again since obviously no one here believes it's a valid issue.. lol

To address Red Irish's concern. I would argue that leaving traces of the installation would be ok, since lots of apps do this. But.. the traces most apps leave are small bits of registry info that exist in case you install the software again. The problem with SecuROM is that it doesn't just leave registry info, it leaves the whole SecuROM service active and running on your machine.

One possible problem could be that you install a game with SecuROM protection but in order to run the game you have to uninstall Nero. When you're done with the game you uninstall it so you can run Nero again, but lo and behold, it won't work. That possibility shouldn't exist, and is a valid concern IMO. We shouldn't have to jump through hoops to uninstall something we don't want running on our machine any longer, especially if it's known to cause conflicts with other software.

 

[mindcycle]

Originally posted by: Golgatha
Overall, I'd say most of the anti-DRM posts here are accurate and the OP has valid concerns about Securom. I share his/her concerns, so tack one up for someone who's been a contributor to these forums for 5.5 years, and certainly feels this is an important topic that should be discussed on open forums in a meaningful way.

Thanks for posting that Golgatha. It's good to hear that not everyone is willing to just bend over and take it when it comes to SecuROM and other unnecessary DRM solutions.

 

[Golgatha]

Originally posted by: mindcycle

Originally posted by: Golgatha
Overall, I'd say most of the anti-DRM posts here are accurate and the OP has valid concerns about Securom. I share his/her concerns, so tack one up for someone who's been a contributor to these forums for 5.5 years, and certainly feels this is an important topic that should be discussed on open forums in a meaningful way.

Thanks for posting that Golgatha. It's good to hear that not everyone is willing to just bend over and take it when it comes to SecuROM and other unnecessary DRM solutions.

I've been following Securom ever since my very personal experience with it.

http://forums.anandtech.com/me...id=80&threadid=2219652

Basically I ended up so frustrated I sold the game off. At best I put up with Securom when I have to, but never when there is a way around putting up with it. I wish it would go away right along with Steam.

http://forums.anandtech.com/me...id=80&threadid=2277525

 

[smackababy]

I still see no valid arguments for no DRM on software. I am a computer programmer and I will be damned if anything I make goes out for free. If SecuROM is such horrid, intrusive DRM, why don't you smarts guy (who have all the answers about SecuROM) go out and make a better way to protect the IP of hard working developers? All I see in this thread is people crying and no real solution except the "let everyone have it for free" solution people keep saying with no DRM at all.

Everyone in here will agree that SecuROM makes users compromise to play games right? Well, guess what? That is life...

 

[Golgatha]

Originally posted by: smackababy
I still see no valid arguments for no DRM on software. I am a computer programmer and I will be damned if anything I make goes out for free. If SecuROM is such horrid, intrusive DRM, why don't you smarts guy (who have all the answers about SecuROM) go out and make a better way to protect the IP of hard working developers? All I see in this thread is people crying and no real solution except the "let everyone have it for free" solution people keep saying with no DRM at all.

Everyone in here will agree that SecuROM makes users compromise to play games right? Well, guess what? That is life...

WTF?! No one here is asking for free IP? Also, there were already laws on the books to protect IP long before digital DRM was ever even thought of. I think this thread is about legitimate, legal consumers of your products wanting to have a better experience with your products than the pirates do, not be criminalized for using our property (I don't believe in the idea of licensing a product, so that's my bias) as we see fit, and the continuance of a 2nd hand market for products.

Securom in RA3 requires Online activation, doesn't require a disc to play, gives legit users automatic updates, and a revoke tool is available to de-autheticate the software and make it available to resell\give away\lend to a friend\etc if the end user wishes to. As I mentioned before, I think Red Alert 3 got it right eventually, but it took substantial consumer backlash to make it happen; hence the need for open debate then compromises on the part of end users and corporations. I see a need to balance the fair use rights, ease of use, and open disclosure for what's being put on my computer, with the rights of IP creators to make a profit from and protect the fruits of their labors.

You want to sell your software to the largest demographic possible and maximize profits? Be prepared to compromise. That's life...

 

[CoinOperatedBoy]

Originally posted by: smackababy
I still see no valid arguments for no DRM on software. I am a computer programmer and I will be damned if anything I make goes out for free.

You are within your rights to protect your IP, but if doing so actually hurts the customer experience, prepare to lose sales one way or another. Especially if the pirated copy provides a better experience than your restrictive one!

I think that's what many of these companies don't get -- they may have implemented DRM in the first place to crack down on piracy (debatable), but ironically their efforts are now actually making piracy more appealing for otherwise legitimate customers to get around these malicious protection schemes. And then you've got the DRM flag-wavers who point and shout, "You see? The pirates have no shame and the problem is getting worse. We need to make our protection even more strict!" Seriously, stop shooting yourself in the foot and break the cycle.

The key is to make a good product at a reasonable price, and make it easy to acquire and use. Look at how the music industry is being forced by Apple to reconsider DRM. iTunes goes DRM-free and you don't see the industry implode. A lot of people are willing to use the service and pay for music because it's at least comparable to the ease and speed of P2P, and it's legal.

Honestly, I think Steam is a step in the right direction for software distribution. I'm with the detractors on the centralized point of failure concerns, and the scary idea that you're basically renting. Steam also doesn't offer universally cheaper prices compared to physical media, and kills off the resale market to boot (which is undoubtedly one primary aim of authentication-based DRM). However, they do have attractive weekend deals and tryout periods regularly, and for the most part they make it easy to buy what you want and install it. If I were inclined to pirate, I might seriously reconsider if I saw the titles I want on Steam for $5 or $10 (i.e., Bioshock; too bad it includes SecuROM!).

That's how you beat the pirates -- make your product more attractive, not less. That's part of the reason SecuROM sucks. If it didn't negatively impact the good guys instead of the crooks, it would be a non-issue.

If SecuROM is such horrid, intrusive DRM, why don't you smarts guy (who have all the answers about SecuROM) go out and make a better way to protect the IP of hard working developers? All I see in this thread is people crying and no real solution except the "let everyone have it for free" solution people keep saying with no DRM at all.

1) You apparently lack basic reading comprehension skills because you've misinterpreted the majority of the thread. 2) The "If you don't like it, come up with something better!" fallacy has already been addressed. I shouldn't have to know how to make an alternative form of DRM to say why SecuROM ticks me off.

 

[mindcycle]

Originally posted by: smackababy
I still see no valid arguments for no DRM on software. I am a computer programmer and I will be damned if anything I make goes out for free. If SecuROM is such horrid, intrusive DRM, why don't you smarts guy (who have all the answers about SecuROM) go out and make a better way to protect the IP of hard working developers? All I see in this thread is people crying and no real solution except the "let everyone have it for free" solution people keep saying with no DRM at all.

Everyone in here will agree that SecuROM makes users compromise to play games right? Well, guess what? That is life...

Who in here is arguing that software should be free? Just like chizow you are assuming that those against DRM are automatically pirates, which simply is not the case here.

IMO, the solution is no DRM and better incentives to buy games. Two recent Ubisoft games, Price of Persia and Tom Clancy's HAWX were released with no DRM at all. Not even a disc check. Why do you think they did that? Probably because they realized that spending extra money on DRM wasn't going to stop people from pirating the games, and may possibly lead to more sales as well.

FACT: People are going to pirate software no matter what DRM is included.

FACT: DRM is a potential headache for only one group of people. Paying customers.

Like Golgatha said above me. Those of us against DRM only want to be guaranteed a better (or at least equal) experience than pirates, since we did support the company and buy the game after all. Why punish us with invasive and unnecessary DRM?

 

[Aberforth]

Originally posted by: CoinOperatedBoy

Originally posted by: smackababy
I still see no valid arguments for no DRM on software. I am a computer programmer and I will be damned if anything I make goes out for free.

If SecuROM is such horrid, intrusive DRM, why don't you smarts guy (who have all the answers about SecuROM) go out and make a better way to protect the IP of hard working developers? All I see in this thread is people crying and no real solution except the "let everyone have it for free" solution people keep saying with no DRM at all.

1) You apparently lack basic reading comprehension skills because you've misinterpreted the majority of the thread. 2) The "If you don't like it, come up with something better!" fallacy has already been addressed. I shouldn't have to know how to make an alternative form of DRM to say why SecuROM ticks me off.

Oh btw, I too consider your opinions as bilge and sophomoric, reducing the price will stop piracy?? no, people like you must be dragged to the classrooms and should be forced to learn about the moral responsibility, just like sex education. How cheap of you to undervalue the magic of software, it's such a compromise with the digital thieves of the world...it's this cheap thinking that leads to disaster one day. One should come up with a better protection that gives peace of mind to the customers and a nightmare to the pirates. Fighting piracy is like fighting any other crime, you don't compromise with the thieves and let them continue with their dirty work. Windows 95 for instance was the most pirated software of all time even without DRM, the OS you are using is the product of many years of research by thousands of programmers around the world, the OS that made pc gaming possible- but still pirates steal it, they have no respect for what you do, you are not a programmer- you will never understand it, you are just a gamer who likes to complain about other people's hard work just to kill time.

 

[CoinOperatedBoy]

Originally posted by: Aberforth
Oh btw, I too consider your opinions as bilge and sophomoric, reducing the price will stop piracy?? no, people like you must be dragged to the classrooms and should be forced to learn about the moral responsibility, just like sex education. How cheap of you to undervalue the magic of software, it's such a compromise with the digital thieves of the world...it's this cheap thinking that leads to disaster one day. One should come up with a better protection that gives peace of mind to the customers and a nightmare to the pirates. Fighting piracy is like fighting any other crime, you don't compromise with the thieves and let them continue with their dirty work. Windows 95 for instance was the most pirated software of all time even without DRM, the OS you are using is the product of many years of research by thousands of programmers around the world, the OS that made pc gaming possible- but still pirates steal it, they have no respect for what you do, you are not a programmer- you will never understand it, you are just a gamer who likes to complain about other people's hard work just to kill time.

Flattery will get you nowhere, Aberforth.

I didn't say reducing price would stop piracy. My point is this: If consumers can't reconcile the asking price of a product with what it actually does, they won't buy it, and some may pirate it. If developers create quality software, and it's distributed with a fair price and high accessibility, people will pay for it. Malware like SecuROM devalues software products and makes them less desirable to people like me who are willing to pay for something that works as it should. Not only that, but it does next to nothing to stop the dedicated pirate who will never pay for software no matter how cheap it is.

Your ad hominem arguments and retarded assumptions are quite worthless. I'm a software engineer, for what it's worth, and you know next to nothing about me, so don't assume you know what I do or what I believe. You've demonstrated a clear lack of common sense, courtesy, and understanding of the consumer mindset. Please bow out before you embarass yourself further.

 

[Golgatha]

Originally posted by: Aberforth

Originally posted by: CoinOperatedBoy

Originally posted by: smackababy
I still see no valid arguments for no DRM on software. I am a computer programmer and I will be damned if anything I make goes out for free.

If SecuROM is such horrid, intrusive DRM, why don't you smarts guy (who have all the answers about SecuROM) go out and make a better way to protect the IP of hard working developers? All I see in this thread is people crying and no real solution except the "let everyone have it for free" solution people keep saying with no DRM at all.

1) You apparently lack basic reading comprehension skills because you've misinterpreted the majority of the thread. 2) The "If you don't like it, come up with something better!" fallacy has already been addressed. I shouldn't have to know how to make an alternative form of DRM to say why SecuROM ticks me off.

Oh btw, I too consider your opinions as bilge and sophomoric, reducing the price will stop piracy?? no, people like you must be dragged to the classrooms and should be forced to learn about the moral responsibility, just like sex education. How cheap of you to undervalue the magic of software, it's such a compromise with the digital thieves of the world...it's this cheap thinking that leads to disaster one day. One should come up with a better protection that gives peace of mind to the customers and a nightmare to the pirates. Fighting piracy is like fighting any other crime, you don't compromise with the thieves and let them continue with their dirty work. Windows 95 for instance was the most pirated software of all time even without DRM, the OS you are using is the product of many years of research by thousands of programmers around the world, the OS that made pc gaming possible- but still pirates steal it, they have no respect for what you do, you are not a programmer- you will never understand it, you are just a gamer who likes to complain about other people's hard work just to kill time.

One should come up with a better protection that gives peace of mind to the customers and a nightmare to the pirates.

I agree totally. As of right now though, pretty much every form of DRM out there is a breeze for pirates to get around, and only negatively effects legitimate users.

How cheap of you to undervalue the magic of software, it's such a compromise with the digital thieves of the world...it's this cheap thinking that leads to disaster one day.

I'm pretty sure the market (aka paying customers) still decide what is a fair price for a product, not you. If a product doesn't sell at price X, then you've got to lower the price or no one wins. Speaking of classrooms, that's Economics 101.

Fighting piracy is like fighting any other crime, you don't compromise with the thieves and let them continue with their dirty work.

Agreed, that's what copyright law is for, which has absolutely nothing to do with Securom or DRM in general.

Windows 95 for instance was the most pirated software of all time even without DRM, the OS you are using is the product of many years of research by thousands of programmers around the world, the OS that made pc gaming possible- but still pirates steal it, they have no respect for what you do, you are not a programmer- you will never understand it, you are just a gamer who likes to complain about other people's hard work just to kill time.

And I'll be damned, Microsoft is still in business, the MPAA's constituents are still making money in spite of the VCR and DVD Burner, and the RIAA's constituents still make money hand-over-fist in spite of the CD-Burner. My point is that there are more honest people in the world paying good money for legal products than there are dishonest people pirating everything under the sun with no remorse. Why not give the honest people in society even more reason to buy your products, as opposed to assuming they are criminals the first time they say something negative about your DRM scheme?

 

[Golgatha]

Please bow out before you embarass yourself further.

I disagree. Instead of people wondering if he's a tool, let him keep opening his mouth and remove all doubt for all the lurkers reading through this thread. He's only helping strengthen our position by resorting to making unsubstantiated statements and public personal attacks against fellow forum members.

 

[CoinOperatedBoy]

Originally posted by: Golgatha

Please bow out before you embarass yourself further.

I disagree. Instead of people wondering if he's a tool, let him keep opening his mouth and remove all doubt for all the lurkers reading through this thread. He's only helping strengthen our position by resorting to making unsubstantiated statements and public personal attacks against fellow forum members.

In a different setting, I would love to keep handing Aberforth rope to hang himself, but I've been trying (in vain) to parse through these arguments that have such a horrible signal-to-noise ratio and at this point I would just like to hear some actual logic from the other side.

I have no problem whatsoever with these guys trying to make a case for SecuROM's existence, presenting stats on user-reported problems, or offering up articles with expert opinions. Even if it doesn't address primary concerns raised in the thread or disprove any claims about how the software actually affects users, it can be valuable in discussion.

But Aberforth just spews ridicule and garbage.

 

[Golgatha]

Originally posted by: CoinOperatedBoy

Originally posted by: Golgatha

Please bow out before you embarass yourself further.

I disagree. Instead of people wondering if he's a tool, let him keep opening his mouth and remove all doubt for all the lurkers reading through this thread. He's only helping strengthen our position by resorting to making unsubstantiated statements and public personal attacks against fellow forum members.

In a different setting, I would love to keep handing Aberforth rope to hang himself, but I've been trying (in vain) to parse through these arguments that have such a horrible signal-to-noise ratio and at this point I would just like to hear some actual logic from the other side.

I have no problem whatsoever with these guys trying to make a case for SecuROM's existence, presenting stats on user-reported problems, or offering up articles with expert opinions. Even if it doesn't address primary concerns raised in the thread or disprove any claims about how the software actually affects users, it can be valuable in discussion.

But Aberforth just spews ridicule and garbage.

Maybe I should play Devil's Advocate.

 

[mindcycle]

Originally posted by: Aberforth
Oh btw, I too consider your opinions as bilge and sophomoric, reducing the price will stop piracy??

No, it won't stop piracy, but neither will more invasive DRM solutions. Price competition is an excellent way to move more units of any given piece of software, and allows the potential of making more money in the long run. Look at Steam as an example.

Look at the music industry, (which has already been given as an an example in this thread) they realized that the ease of piracy for the average computer user has gone way up in recent years, so they were facing less sales of physical cd's. So instead of trying to find ways to get people to buy music again, and basically accept the reality of the situation, they began to sue their customers, put rootkit DRM on audio cd's, and raise prices. Now after years of doing retarded crap like that they realized that people are much more willing to actually buy music and not pirate it if it was easily available, has no DRM, and has a decent price tag. Look at iTunes as an example.

Originally posted by: Aberforth
How cheap of you to undervalue the magic of software, it's such a compromise with the digital thieves of the world..

Who's undervaluing anything here? We're just gamers who want to play games without the potential hassles of invasive DRM and we believe that stricter and stricter DRM isn't doing anyone any good, not even the industry who uses it. I've been a PC gamer since my dad bought me my own 386 when I was a kid. I've spent more on PC games and computer hardware to play those games then i've ever spent on my own wife. (Sure, that's kinda sad, but it's true) Like chizow, you want to simply write off anyone against DRM as a pirate, and as has been proven time and time again in this thread and others, that is simply not the case here. We're as concerned as you about the future of the PC games industry, but the difference is that we think there is a better way of doing things than creating more roadblocks for the individuals who are currently supporting the industry.

Originally posted by: Aberforth
One should come up with a better protection that gives peace of mind to the customers and a nightmare to the pirates.

Which is an outdated concept. DRM will be cracked no matter how great it seems, so drop it completely and give people greater incentives to buy the product. That's a real solution that is up to date with the current state of thing. Given the lack of complexity pirating software is to your average Joe nowadays, the solution seems clear as day to me. Less roadblocks and greater incentives. If publishers are unwilling to accept the reality of things, they will suffer the same fate as the music industry.

 

[Red Irish]

@Golgatha, thanks for adding your voice and ensuring that the arguments against Securom are not discredited simply because the original post was made by a fresh contributor.

Securom does not hinder piracy, the figures show that it does not work, therefore arguments that align an anti-Securom stance with a position in favour of piracy are null and void from the outset. This line of argument seems to be more concerned with attempting to justify the jobs of the people who create such malware, attempting to justify the untenable policies of companies that refuse to listen to their customers or attempting to justify financial agreements between said companies and Sony, the company responsible for Securom. Pirates, and those in favour of piracy, have no need to complain about Securom as it is easily and consistently circumvented.

Moreover, by using piracy as a pretext to attack the second-hand market, the companies deserve nothing but contempt. We, as paying customers, deserve better than this: I am not a financial expert, but alienating your client base by lying to them and spreading misinformation does not appear to be a very sound approach to the market.

Posters who have expressed their concerns in relation to Securom have been accused of offering no alternatives. If you take the time to read over the various contributions in this thread, this is clearly not the case.

Competitive pricing is certainly one way to ensure more clients and reduce piracy; however, my criticism of Securom revolves around the permanent nature of this software, the fact that it does not fulfill the function for which it was allegedly designed [combatting piracy] and the fact that it is potentially harmful.

If the companies use security that serves to combat piracy whilst avoiding conflict with other software on my system, harm to my system or unnecessary hindrances, then I am more than willing to accept it. Furthermore, such software should not be permanently installed on my system separately to the game: Sony does not decide what should be installed on my system, I do. Finally, if I am renting rather than purchasing a game I demand that this be made clear to me.

Aberforth, you have dismissed us by saying that "we are just gamers". We are much more than that: we are customers, we are the force behind the entire industry and its raison d'être and we are capable of thinking and expressing our opinions rather than passively accepting an abusive situation.

 

[RyanPaulShaffer]

Fallout 3 (7.36.0006)

Is the SecuROM in FallOut 3 the "phone home" kind found in Mass Effect, or is it a disc check?

Mass Effect? (7.37.0012)

Also, what does the cross next to a title mean? It's not explained in the original post...

 

[Red Irish]

Originally posted by: RyanPaulShaffer
Fallout 3 (7.36.0006)

Is the SecuROM in FallOut 3 the "phone home" kind found in Mass Effect, or is it a disc check?

Mass Effect? (7.37.0012)

Also, what does the cross next to a title mean? It's not explained in the original post...

Hi Ryan, hope this helps (despite claims to the contrary I did not compile the list):

http://reclaimyourgame.com/ind...rticle&id=45&Itemid=11

Its a disk check as far as I'm aware and requires you to maintain the DVD in the drive when playing.

Check this out as well (bears thinking about):

https://support.securom.com/pop_fallout3.html

Have a good one.