Screw hybrid cars you enviro-weenies!

[So]

Originally posted by: Eli

Originally posted by: So
What you're failing to acknowledge is that we must preserve our environment if we have any hope of improving the life that mankind leads as a whole.
Because that's a baseless claim. The environment is not some objective 'good' it's simply a thing that surrounds man. If we can lead better lives by removing species and simplifying the equation, why shouldn't we? Because people worship the envirnment in the same way that the religious right worships god.

We can only toss the garbage out of our houses and into our back yards for so long before it comes flooding back inside.
What? We are in no danger of 'having our carbage flooding back'. If we continue to progress, we'll have no problem getting rid of our 'trash' -- stopping progress in order to stop the trash only guarantees that we will continue to produce it.

What in the flip? It's a baseless claim? What? How do you figure?

Saying that the very thing that created us is necessary for our survival is a baseless claim?
Saying we aqre incapable of taking care of ourselves and that we must live in fear of upsetting a dynamic process, because we are incapable of controlling it ourselves is ridiculous

I don't think you get it, obviously. Ok, let's wipe out a few species. Fine. Where does it stop though? By killing off those few species, you have now caused a few more species to go extinct.. which causes a few more.. The snowball is getting pretty large now, isn't it?
Not really, as long as we have oxygen, which can come from trees, who cares? Wait, I forgot, people have no idea how to grow or manage large numbers of trees, we need animals to do that.

That isn't really even the point, though. We're not talking about a few individual species, we're talking about the Earth's ecosystem as a whole.
But you're again, preserving it for it's own sake, not the sake of people, we'd do fine with us and the trees

We cannot completely destroy it. If even a fraction of the systems at work in our natural world collapsed, or changed drastically, we would be in for a world of hurt.
For a while, then it will realistically stabilize. Whatever animals survive will evolve predators and the system will correct itself, as it always does, and if it doesn't, we can control pests
We're in no danger of having our garbage flood back into our homes? Really? Where do you think it goes? It certainly doesen't leave the planet. It already does flood back into our homes, depending on which kind of pollution you're talking about. My home, for one, isn't flooded with garbage, and there is plenty of open land, we can incenerate the garbage for waste energy, etc, the point is, we should be doing it, because we want the spaces around us to look nice, not out of a fear that we are too dumb to control our surroundings

Nobody is saying anything about ceasing to progress.
Yes, you are, you are saying we should decrease our energy output, which is regression
Many would argue that preserving the environment while at the same time improving the life of mankind would be real progress.
Many would say that a man in the sky has their whole life planned out for them too, improving the environment is a part of making man's life better, and it has no requirement of maintaining the status quo.
[/quote]

 

[Ronstang]

This article is just evidence that the Saudis and other OPEC countries are a little scared of the situation they have created. They have been pulling this "Oil Crisis" crap on and off again since the early 70's but back then there were no real competing technologies so they could basically do what they wanted. Now it seems that the push for alternative fuels and technologies have gained enough steam to not be abated. Even if there were an unlimited supply of oil people are getting tired of bowing to OPEC. Hybrid technology is taking off and even if gas went back down to $1/gallon people would still be buying them.....noone is going to sit back and trust OPEC anymore. As alternate technologies come into their own there are many people who would embrace them even if oil were cheap for environmental reasons and simply because they do not trust OPEC anymore. These guys are scared and they have created the situation for themselves taking the price of oil from $12/barrel to $60/barrel in less than five years.

 

[Nitemare]

If these Aholes have so much oil, why are they charging over $40 a barrel?

 

[Mo0o]

Originally posted by: Nitemare
If these Aholes have so much oil, why are they charging over $40 a barrel?

So they make more money...

 

[91TTZ]

I used to work with an Egyptian guy and he was totally out of touch with reality. He believed that god put the oil under the sand to provide for the Muslim people. He thinks it can never run out, and it seems that many muslims also believe this. He said it was impossible for the supply to ever be used up.

I'm afraid that the Saudis believe this too.

 

[Ronstang]

Originally posted by: 91TTZ
I used to work with an Egyptian guy and he was totally out of touch with reality. He believed that god put the oil under the sand to provide for the Muslim people. He thinks it can never run out, and it seems that many muslims also believe this. He said it was impossible for the supply to ever be used up.

I'm afraid that the Saudis believe this too.

It should at least be comforting that our enemies are rather stupid and shortsighted.

 

[CPA]

Originally posted by: jumpr

Originally posted by: CPA

Originally posted by: jumpr

Originally posted by: MasterAndCommander

Originally posted by: BroeBo
If people who care about the status of the earth are "envro-pansies" then I guess I am one. That must make you what we enviro-pansies call a "fvcking idiot"

Just because we have it doesn't mean we should waste it.

Green house gases/Global Warming are good...I hate winter.

Do you like losing California, Florida and New York City due to rising sea levels?

hahahaha, here we go with the scare tactics. I think it's time someone said it:

Take this to P&N!

FACT: sea levels are rising at 3 mm/yr. currently. If I lived in an island nation, I'd be scared as hell.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_warming#Sea_level_rise

OMG 3mm/year!!!!!!! And of course, we can predict the future and know that the levels will never recede, right?

 

[CPA]

Originally posted by: AMCRambler
Excuse me, I have to go buy a Hummer now. Saudi Oil Minister sais so!

Make sure you get the GM Employee price

 

[LS20]

Originally posted by: Ronstang

Originally posted by: 91TTZ
I used to work with an Egyptian guy and he was totally out of touch with reality. He believed that god put the oil under the sand to provide for the Muslim people. He thinks it can never run out, and it seems that many muslims also believe this. He said it was impossible for the supply to ever be used up.

I'm afraid that the Saudis believe this too.

It should at least be comforting that our enemies are rather stupid and shortsighted.

saudis and egyptians are the enemies now? or is it all muslim people who are the enemy? or maybe everyone whose country overlie oil?

maybe we should lump all non-americans, gays, jews, and minorities in there, too!

 

[Eli]

Originally posted by: So

Originally posted by: Eli

Originally posted by: So
What you're failing to acknowledge is that we must preserve our environment if we have any hope of improving the life that mankind leads as a whole.
Because that's a baseless claim. The environment is not some objective 'good' it's simply a thing that surrounds man. If we can lead better lives by removing species and simplifying the equation, why shouldn't we? Because people worship the envirnment in the same way that the religious right worships god.

We can only toss the garbage out of our houses and into our back yards for so long before it comes flooding back inside.
What? We are in no danger of 'having our carbage flooding back'. If we continue to progress, we'll have no problem getting rid of our 'trash' -- stopping progress in order to stop the trash only guarantees that we will continue to produce it.

What in the flip? It's a baseless claim? What? How do you figure?

Saying that the very thing that created us is necessary for our survival is a baseless claim?
Saying we aqre incapable of taking care of ourselves and that we must live in fear of upsetting a dynamic process, because we are incapable of controlling it ourselves is ridiculous

I don't think you get it, obviously. Ok, let's wipe out a few species. Fine. Where does it stop though? By killing off those few species, you have now caused a few more species to go extinct.. which causes a few more.. The snowball is getting pretty large now, isn't it?
Not really, as long as we have oxygen, which can come from trees, who cares? Wait, I forgot, people have no idea how to grow or manage large numbers of trees, we need animals to do that.

That isn't really even the point, though. We're not talking about a few individual species, we're talking about the Earth's ecosystem as a whole.
But you're again, preserving it for it's own sake, not the sake of people, we'd do fine with us and the trees

We cannot completely destroy it. If even a fraction of the systems at work in our natural world collapsed, or changed drastically, we would be in for a world of hurt.
For a while, then it will realistically stabilize. Whatever animals survive will evolve predators and the system will correct itself, as it always does, and if it doesn't, we can control pests
We're in no danger of having our garbage flood back into our homes? Really? Where do you think it goes? It certainly doesen't leave the planet. It already does flood back into our homes, depending on which kind of pollution you're talking about. My home, for one, isn't flooded with garbage, and there is plenty of open land, we can incenerate the garbage for waste energy, etc, the point is, we should be doing it, because we want the spaces around us to look nice, not out of a fear that we are too dumb to control our surroundings

Nobody is saying anything about ceasing to progress.
Yes, you are, you are saying we should decrease our energy output, which is regression
Many would argue that preserving the environment while at the same time improving the life of mankind would be real progress.
Many would say that a man in the sky has their whole life planned out for them too, improving the environment is a part of making man's life better, and it has no requirement of maintaining the status quo.

[/quote]WTF? I never said we should decrease our energy output, I simply said that we need to be mindful of our environment.

Whatever. I don't agree with your viewpoint at all. I don't agree that we should just massacre our natural environment for the sake of mankind.

Don't you think we should at least be careful? Sure, the Earth will adapt, but at what consequence? Massive global warming? We simply don't know.

Would you call a drastic change in weather "improving the life of mankind"? Come on. Do you really believe that our planet could simply be a floating rock, and everything would be just dandy?

Remember, we don't know. What if we reach a point where we've cut so much of the rainforest down that our atmosphere begins to collapse? Sure, it's unlikely.. but what if?

This is our home! How can you say that it doesen't matter? We should try our best to keep it clean, this is common sense.... Anybody who says otherwise is simply being a fool and extremely short sighted.

BTW: I was talking about air pollution. That's the garbage that's flowing back into your home.

Do you think it's going to get better with attitudes like yours? Do you think the air pollution has improved our quality of life? Jesus Christ, think about what you're saying man.

My views have swung hard in the last few years, but I still can't understand people who have no regard for our environment. In my eyes, it is a crime for a 30 year old human being to cut down a 1,000 year old tree. Just thinking of all the years it saw before some arrogant human with a chainsaw came along makes me angry.

Is having empathy for other living things really such a bad thing?

 

[biostud]

They just like to keep their hands on US balls.

 

[Ronstang]

Originally posted by: LS20

Originally posted by: Ronstang

Originally posted by: 91TTZ
I used to work with an Egyptian guy and he was totally out of touch with reality. He believed that god put the oil under the sand to provide for the Muslim people. He thinks it can never run out, and it seems that many muslims also believe this. He said it was impossible for the supply to ever be used up.

I'm afraid that the Saudis believe this too.

It should at least be comforting that our enemies are rather stupid and shortsighted.

saudis and egyptians are the enemies now? or is it all muslim people who are the enemy? or maybe everyone whose country overlie oil?

maybe we should lump all non-americans, gays, jews, and minorities in there, too!

You are naive if you think the Saudis are our friends, they are anything but. They only tolerate us because they need US to buy their oil and protect them but they work behind the scenes to undermine our efforts in the Middle East. They only let us use Saudi Arabia as a staging lane for the Gulf War because they were directly threatened by Saddam but they would betray us in a heartbeat if they did not NEED us.

 

[So]

Originally posted by: Eli

Originally posted by: So

Originally posted by: Eli

Originally posted by: So
What you're failing to acknowledge is that we must preserve our environment if we have any hope of improving the life that mankind leads as a whole.
Because that's a baseless claim. The environment is not some objective 'good' it's simply a thing that surrounds man. If we can lead better lives by removing species and simplifying the equation, why shouldn't we? Because people worship the envirnment in the same way that the religious right worships god.

We can only toss the garbage out of our houses and into our back yards for so long before it comes flooding back inside.
What? We are in no danger of 'having our carbage flooding back'. If we continue to progress, we'll have no problem getting rid of our 'trash' -- stopping progress in order to stop the trash only guarantees that we will continue to produce it.

What in the flip? It's a baseless claim? What? How do you figure?

Saying that the very thing that created us is necessary for our survival is a baseless claim?
Saying we aqre incapable of taking care of ourselves and that we must live in fear of upsetting a dynamic process, because we are incapable of controlling it ourselves is ridiculous

I don't think you get it, obviously. Ok, let's wipe out a few species. Fine. Where does it stop though? By killing off those few species, you have now caused a few more species to go extinct.. which causes a few more.. The snowball is getting pretty large now, isn't it?
Not really, as long as we have oxygen, which can come from trees, who cares? Wait, I forgot, people have no idea how to grow or manage large numbers of trees, we need animals to do that.

That isn't really even the point, though. We're not talking about a few individual species, we're talking about the Earth's ecosystem as a whole.
But you're again, preserving it for it's own sake, not the sake of people, we'd do fine with us and the trees

We cannot completely destroy it. If even a fraction of the systems at work in our natural world collapsed, or changed drastically, we would be in for a world of hurt.
For a while, then it will realistically stabilize. Whatever animals survive will evolve predators and the system will correct itself, as it always does, and if it doesn't, we can control pests
We're in no danger of having our garbage flood back into our homes? Really? Where do you think it goes? It certainly doesen't leave the planet. It already does flood back into our homes, depending on which kind of pollution you're talking about. My home, for one, isn't flooded with garbage, and there is plenty of open land, we can incenerate the garbage for waste energy, etc, the point is, we should be doing it, because we want the spaces around us to look nice, not out of a fear that we are too dumb to control our surroundings

Nobody is saying anything about ceasing to progress.
Yes, you are, you are saying we should decrease our energy output, which is regression
Many would argue that preserving the environment while at the same time improving the life of mankind would be real progress.
Many would say that a man in the sky has their whole life planned out for them too, improving the environment is a part of making man's life better, and it has no requirement of maintaining the status quo.

WTF? I never said we should decrease our energy output, I simply said that we need to be mindful of our environment.
Define 'mindful.' If 'mindful' means keeping city streets clean and the air in cities fresh, I agree. If it means freezing economic progress in blind fear that we might kill animals, or ourselves by progressing, then I disagree. We can't sit and wait for pipedreams like wind power to save us.
Whatever. I don't agree with your viewpoint at all. I don't agree that we should just massacre our natural environment for the sake of mankind.
So, the environment is more important than mankind? What is the purpose of the environemnt (with respect to humans)?

Don't you think we should at least be careful? Sure, the Earth will adapt, but at what consequence? Massive global warming? We simply don't know.
We know that life will not improve if we stop progressing increasing our energy output, we need not 'be careful' if being careful meangs living in fear of failure. We can correct any mistakes we make.

Would you call a drastic change in weather "improving the life of mankind"? Come on.
You assume that change is for the worse and would be drastic. Realistically, so long as we keep enough plant life on the planet to sustain human life, there is no long term danger.

Do you really believe that our planet could simply be a floating rock, and everything would be just dandy?
Again, you assume that with change it becomes a floating rock
Remember, we don't know. What if we reach a point where we've cut so much of the rainforest down that our atmosphere begins to collapse? Sure, it's unlikely.. but what if?
what if I spontaneously combust? Sure, it's unlikely.. but what if? -- you know that's a silly argument. Come on!
We can't stand still because of improbable maybes.

This is our home! How can you say that it doesen't matter? We should try our best to keep it clean,
for us. However it depends on how you define clean, see below
this is common sense.... Anybody who says otherwise is simply being a fool and extremely short sighted.

BTW: I was talking about air pollution. That's the garbage that's flowing back into your home.
Yes, we want to control air pollution, because it is unpleasant for humans...does that mean protecting all species and stopping industrial output to protect the stats quo? No. Does it mean requiring people to clean up the durt they put into the air? Yes.
Do you think it's going to get better with attitudes like yours? Do you think the air pollution has improved our quality of life? Jesus Christ, think about what you're saying man.
Do you thing that standing still, and hoping that mother nature will take care of us is going to make things better?

[/quote]

Now, personally, I would be very happy to see non polutting cars, simply because it would lift smog, which everyone who lives in a metropolitan area dislikes. However, we cannot depend on silly, tiny alternative sources of energy. Nor can we count on increasing efficiency to bring us what we need. By removing waste, we are not really creating anything new, and we will still face the same energy limitations we face today.

 

[0roo0roo]

bah, its true they keep finding more deposits.

but they desperately need to learn what birth control is. oil money spread too thin = bad things.

idiots.

 

[IHateMyJob2004]

OIL WILL BE GONE EVENTUALLY

PERIOD!

Also, this is just one country. What you seem to not relaize is that Saidi Arabia has already gone thrpough 90% of the oil it origianlly had.

 

[klah]

build lots of nukes

 

[mercanucaribe]

I nominate So for the Most-selfish-fool-whose-mother-didn't-teach-him-decency-and-who-overuses-bold Award.

 

[mercanucaribe]

Here's what you don't realize, So:
1) Decreased biodiversity is not a good thing for humanity. There is no such thing as "simplifying the equation" to make things better for us. The battle is between short term benefits for certain people at the expense of the environment, or long term sustainability benefitting all. How do we benefit from millions of plant and animal species becoming extinct? I don't know about you, but I'd be pissed if chocolate was extinct before we discovered it. How about if the cure for the forum member's lupus afflicted mother was left homeless after the Congo was cut down. Consider this, if it were not for the amount of biodiversity present before the mass extinction 65 million years ago, life on earth may never have recovered or been left in a very primitive state.

2) We do not have unlimited fossil fuels. I don't know if you live under a rock or what, but this should be self evident. We can't indefinately "increase progress output" or whatever you said. We can produce energy indefinately with nuclear power though, which doesn't have to have large scale environmental rammifications. Or wait, is "progress" using more and more oil from the Saudis?
Edit: Oil won't run out. It will become too expensive to extract, but even before then the rising cost will have devastating effects on the world economy.

3) It's true, change for the worst doesn't have to be drastic, and it doesn't have to turn the earth into a flying rock. So what? Once a species or an ecosystem is gone, it's gone, just like a piece of human history, except the natural world including us is the result of 3.5 million years of evolution. Why not destroy the Constitution or some Gutenberg Bibles, for the hell of it? What benefit do you see from "simplification" other than satisfying your simplistic mindset of "nature bad, man good, man destroy nature, good for man"?


Here's what other people don't realize:
Garbage isn't a problem. There is lots of room for landfills and the earth is a huge ball of the same materials garbage is made of. I'll even bet that golf courses cover more land in the USA than garbage dumps.