SCOTUS rules: ACA subsidies apply to ALL states

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PlanetJosh

Golden Member
May 6, 2013
1,815
143
106
The opponents of the ACA tend to avoid the part that somewhat contradicts the much publicized four words "established by the State" clause.
The Law Authorizes Backup Exchanges
Although the law said states “shall” establish exchanges, it also set up a backup plan: If a state did not "elect" to establish its own exchange, the statute says, the Health and Human Services Department “shall (directly or through agreement with a not-for-profit entity) establish and operate such Exchange within the State.”

http://www.nationaljournal.com/health-care/the-one-word-that-could-save-obamacare-20150208

http://www.cbpp.org/research/health-reform-law-makes-clear-that-subsidies-will-be-available-in-states-with-federally

I'm not saying the law must absolutely be interpreted as supporting the ACA in the Scotus case. All I'm saying is the right wingers should admit the ruling could have and should have gone either way. As in it deserved to go either way. And lefties like me should also admit the same. Is that too much to ask considering the apparent unclear (occasionally contradictory) language in the ACA law?

Yes I love grey. I like grey areas in some laws. And the righties may like black and white. So sometimes it's moral interpretation as well as ones politics.
 
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Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
The opponents of the ACA tend to avoid the part that somewhat contradicts the much publicized four words "established by the State" clause.


http://www.nationaljournal.com/health-care/the-one-word-that-could-save-obamacare-20150208

http://www.cbpp.org/research/health-reform-law-makes-clear-that-subsidies-will-be-available-in-states-with-federally

I'm not saying the law must absolutely be interpreted as supporting the ACA in the Scotus case. All I'm saying is the right wingers should admit the ruling could have and should have gone either way. As in it deserved to go either way. And lefties like me should also admit the same. Is that so much to ask considering the apparent unclear (occasionally contradictory) language in the ACA law?

Yes I love grey. I like grey areas in some laws. And the righties may like black and white. So it's all (or mostly) moral interpretation and politics.

I think the original ruling a while back could have gone either way, not this one. The Court committed itself & the nation to a course of action wrt the ACA. Other than the ideological toadies on the Court, they won't let Right-financed lawyers or anybody else overturn the collective will of Congress, the Executive or their own because of a single seemingly contradictory passage in an enormous bit of legislation.

Scalia is right about one thing, the Scotuscare jab. They bought it & now they'll defend that ownership.

Resistance is futile, in a good way.
 

emperus

Diamond Member
Apr 6, 2012
7,765
1,503
126
The opponents of the ACA tend to avoid the part that somewhat contradicts the much publicized four words "established by the State" clause.


http://www.nationaljournal.com/health-care/the-one-word-that-could-save-obamacare-20150208

http://www.cbpp.org/research/health-reform-law-makes-clear-that-subsidies-will-be-available-in-states-with-federally

I'm not saying the law must absolutely be interpreted as supporting the ACA in the Scotus case. All I'm saying is the right wingers should admit the ruling could have and should have gone either way. As in it deserved to go either way. And lefties like me should also admit the same. Is that too much to ask considering the apparent unclear (occasionally contradictory) language in the ACA law?

Yes I love grey. I like grey areas in some laws. And the righties may like black and white. So sometimes it's moral interpretation as well as ones politics.

Sorry, I don't subscribe to false equivalencies.. If you can find one person in the Senate or House who was under the impression that the subsidies were ONLY for the states then you would have a point. But you won't find any because everyone understood that without the federal subsidies, ObamaCare wouldn't make any sense. And courts always looked to legislative intent to interpret muddled language.
 

OverVolt

Lifer
Aug 31, 2002
14,278
89
91
a timetable would be nice. Your same talking points were predicted c. 2012, but have yet to occur...just as the spiraling costs were predicted. Yet, costs are stabilizing, savings are predicted at greater and greater rates year to year.

I'm only curious when the first apocalyptic prediction will ever come to pass, rather than fall flat in the face of reality, as has only been the case to this point.

I mean, some evidence or at least an argument backed by numbers would be interesting to see.


....do you think this will happen around the same time all that wealth we gleefully shoved to the top over the last 30 years finally starts trickling down to us peons?

Considering the slow rollout of the law this is an incredibly stupid opinion.
 
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Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
Considering the slow rollout of the law this is an incredibly stupid opinion.

Considering the general success & no-show of boogeyman predictions, the stupid really works the other way.

When have conservatives actually been proven right about much of anything?

Hell, they haven't been right about much of anything at all any more than they've been right about abstinence only sex-ed, de-regulated finance or the invasion of Iraq.

Going to fantasyland is kinda fun once in awhile, but I really don't understand how so many people manage to live there.
 

JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
27,399
3,947
126
Probably doesn't hurt that my family has been in healthcare for 3 generations and so I see the issue from several different perspectives. I can tell a bullshit news article from a real one on the ACA. You guys link alot of bullshit fantasy, ironically enough.

Let's quote it... ^_^
 

PlanetJosh

Golden Member
May 6, 2013
1,815
143
106
^ As far as surprise bills of $1k or $2k I can tell my own story of my hernia operation four months ago. It wasn't a surprise because I make too much money to get any subsidies of the kind in the news. And I pay a hefty $500/month for Kaiser under the ACA in California's exchange. But I do get some coverage as outlined below.

It was a $38k operation of which I paid $6k. It was a triple hernia, that's why the $38k I believe. One hernia is around $10k-15k I think. And I had one on the left groin, one on the right groin and one under the bellybutton. I'm 60 btw. I'm fine, it was a very good operation and there's no pain after the normal first four to six weeks of pain after the operation. The doctor apparently is first rate.

I didn't have to worry about the $6k because I used a joint credit card with my parents and paid it on the spot over the phone talking with a hospital administration person. And my parents paid the credit card bill. So I'm from a well to do background. My point? I favor the ACA and although I'm lucky financially I'm concerned of course about any surprise bills over 1k or even less in some cases for the middle class and especially if that ever happens to the poor.
 
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uclaLabrat

Diamond Member
Aug 2, 2007
5,542
2,850
136
Its going to death spiral anyway.

<-- This is me not caring since I now have employer insurance. But let me tell you... the individual market is basically dead.

And for all the older people with nice plans who think they did a good thing supporting obamacare... wait for the cadillac tax :).

The ACA is not one size fits all. Guess who it fucks over? Hmm lets see. Temp workers. New college grads. Older Atypical college students who try to work while in college. People going back to college. People changing careers. etc. etc.
How in the hell does the ACA fuck over temp workers? I was temp-to-hire last year and it saved my ass.
 
Nov 8, 2012
20,828
4,777
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So what is going to happen when the cadillac tax goes into affect? Is the average employer sponsored healthcare going to skyrocket?
 
Nov 8, 2012
20,828
4,777
146
Considering the slow rollout of the law this is an incredibly stupid opinion.

This. We don't even have everything in the ACA implemented yet and everyone is calling it a success simply based on the number of uninsured dropping.

News flash: Our choice is throw money down the toilet at tax time, or pay for health insurance. Which would you choose? It's not a choice, it's a gun to the head.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
83,963
47,868
136
You are just flat out an idiot dude. I've always thought so.

Oddly enough I was just reading this: http://observer.com/2015/06/obamacare-half-the-cost-twice-the-headache-but-whose-fault-is-that/

And nodding in agreement. All because the ACA guarantees access to a plan it doesn't mean doctors accept that plan. The coverage sucks. Its just that 15 pages of paperwork struggles and surprise $2,000 bills doesn't make a soundbyte zinger that the attention-span challenged liberals oh so love.

I wouldn't expect a death spiral yet. Putting words in my mouth and think you are smart, lol. I suppose siding with the liberals helps you feel smarter and on the cutting edge huh? Luckily I can think for myself. Probably doesn't hurt that my family has been in healthcare for 3 generations and so I see the issue from several different perspectives. I can tell a bullshit news article from a real one on the ACA. You guys link alot of bullshit fantasy, ironically enough.

Ok so a death spiral when?
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
You are just flat out an idiot dude. I've always thought so.

Oddly enough I was just reading this: http://observer.com/2015/06/obamacare-half-the-cost-twice-the-headache-but-whose-fault-is-that/

And nodding in agreement. All because the ACA guarantees access to a plan it doesn't mean doctors accept that plan. The coverage sucks. Its just that 15 pages of paperwork struggles and surprise $2,000 bills doesn't make a soundbyte zinger that the attention-span challenged liberals oh so love.

I wouldn't expect a death spiral yet. Putting words in my mouth and think you are smart, lol. I suppose siding with the liberals helps you feel smarter and on the cutting edge huh? Luckily I can think for myself. Probably doesn't hurt that my family has been in healthcare for 3 generations and so I see the issue from several different perspectives. I can tell a bullshit news article from a real one on the ACA. You guys link alot of bullshit fantasy, ironically enough.

So, uhh, physicians going back on their word makes the ACA the bad guy?

Righties suffer from the damndest case of Stockholm Syndrome imaginable. Don't blame the dick of a doctor & others like him for their arrogance & greed. I mean, they're doctors so they're entitled to that, right? Don't blame insurance company greed & stinginess, either.

Just blame Obama instead.

Oh, and pulling an example of that out of a rag like the Observer doesn't mean the coverage sucks. Not at all, except when run through the cognitive gyrations of naysayers like yourself.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
sort of, there were some changes to MA care post Obama care as outlined in this article in the globe, which increased enrollment even further.

https://www.bostonglobe.com/magazin...ssachusetts/4lMPvCS2fIDbInyhLBxxpL/story.html
But wouldn't those changes be minor compared to a state with little or no previous mechanisms for insuring those who can't afford insurance but are above Medicaid level? The reason I'm shocked is because although wait times increased everywhere - unavoidable when there is a large influx of new demand into a system capable of only slowly increasing supply - nothing I've seen has been anything like that, even in states where previously large segments of the population had access to only emergency care.

One bizarre thing about Massachusetts is that the initial increase in patient waiting times when Romneycare went into effect never really subsided. That makes me think that there are some unique Massachusetts factors (maybe weakness in the better-paying specialist field, maybe higher taxes overall that make becoming a Massachusetts general practitioner unattractive) which is exerting a larger influence than is Obamacare. Also, it's worth noting that the ACA recognized this effect (increased waiting times due to sudden higher demand) and includes some steps to mediate it, such as funding for training and subsidizing general practitioners and nurses. Perhaps these need to be increased, perhaps these need to be better divided between states (i.e. the same pay in rural North Dakota would provide a much better standard of living that in urban Massachusetts), or perhaps there is some other ACA factor that needs to be addressed/adjusted.

It's also worth pointing out that while the initial flood of insured generates more Stage 2 or higher cancers or similar problems, over time that should reverse as more cancers are found earlier, in more easily (and cheaply) treated stages.

No. It's what happens when human beings undertake complex tasks in a short period of time.

The people who actually write things, are people. They are not infallible.

All this case was about was, some very clever people spent a lot of time looking for ways to undo the law, and they came across this apparent contradiction, and ran with it.

No one with any sense could possibly believe that Congress intended that the mechanism they created for letting people apply for subsidies, when a state did not set up it's own exchange, would then deny all applicants.
No. What happened was that the architect and perhaps his immediate backers had one vision, whereas the main body of the supporters had a different vision. Gruber is on record multiple times explicitly pointing this out as the intent and he was THE architect. However he appears to have been leading the only force with that intent - thus the lack of dissent from Democrat Representatives who would be expected to catch holy Hell if their red state constituencies were excluded from benefits others receive (assuming THAT would pass SCOTUS's review, which I doubt) and the other sections which imply that the federal exchange is a substitute in every way for a state exchange. Which it should be - not every state has the money or the population to justify setting up an exchange, and some states will fail spectacularly, so the federal exchange needs to be available as a backstop rather than penalizing citizens as a means of pressuring politicians. (Shades of Christie!)

Its going to death spiral anyway.

<-- This is me not caring since I now have employer insurance. But let me tell you... the individual market is basically dead.

And for all the older people with nice plans who think they did a good thing supporting obamacare... wait for the cadillac tax :).

The ACA is not one size fits all. Guess who it fucks over? Hmm lets see. Temp workers. New college grads. Older Atypical college students who try to work while in college. People going back to college. People changing careers. etc. etc.
The ACA was never meant to be our forever system; Obama himself is on audio tape stating that he can't go to a fully socialized single payer system immediately, but he can move us toward that. Instead it was designed to seize control of health care for the federal government. As support for a single payer system grows, more onerous burdens can be placed on insurance companies, which will generate more support for a single payer system. Until that time, Obamacare can easily delay, modify and shift around as needed to continue as long as it needs to continue.

As for the individual market, it's hardly dead. Many if not most states are seeing very large increases requested this year, but that's to be expected as the system shakes down and insurers get better handles on cost. Probably be modest decreases next year as the flood of first-timers' health issues are handled and insurers develop better models and better mechanisms for handling the individual policy market. If not, the bureaucracy can mandate changes to shift some of that individual policy cost to group policy costs. Either way, I doubt the ACA will collapse before we have single payer.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
You are just flat out an idiot dude. I've always thought so.

Oddly enough I was just reading this: http://observer.com/2015/06/obamacare-half-the-cost-twice-the-headache-but-whose-fault-is-that/

And nodding in agreement. All because the ACA guarantees access to a plan it doesn't mean doctors accept that plan. The coverage sucks. Its just that 15 pages of paperwork struggles and surprise $2,000 bills doesn't make a soundbyte zinger that the attention-span challenged liberals oh so love.

I wouldn't expect a death spiral yet. Putting words in my mouth and think you are smart, lol. I suppose siding with the liberals helps you feel smarter and on the cutting edge huh? Luckily I can think for myself. Probably doesn't hurt that my family has been in healthcare for 3 generations and so I see the issue from several different perspectives. I can tell a bullshit news article from a real one on the ACA. You guys link alot of bullshit fantasy, ironically enough.
I've seen that same problem. Our roughly silver tier plan skyrocketed in cost, to the point that we could no longer afford it, so our company stepped down to a roughly bronze level plan. Every doctor I see (four if you count the colonoscopy place) has posted signs that they do not accept our plan for new patients, and one I used to see (sleep apnea doctor) doesn't accept it for anyone, so I just don't see a sleep apnea doctor anymore. Our new young hires had some difficulty finding primary care doctors, but not nearly as much as I feared; they just have to find young doctors whose practices are not yet sufficient to reject such a large block of new patients. Since doctors are generally speaking pretty good at keeping patients even when they no longer are profitable, it's kind of a self-fixing problem.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
The ACA was never meant to be our forever system; Obama himself is on audio tape stating that he can't go to a fully socialized single payer system immediately, but he can move us toward that. Instead it was designed to seize control of health care for the federal government. As support for a single payer system grows, more onerous burdens can be placed on insurance companies, which will generate more support for a single payer system. Until that time, Obamacare can easily delay, modify and shift around as needed to continue as long as it needs to continue.

Nice conspiracy theory, complete with vague reference to what Obama supposedly said.

Why are insurance co profits up? Why are they the darlings of the stock market?

Must be one of those onerous burden deals, huh?
 

IGBT

Lifer
Jul 16, 2001
17,948
130
106
All liberals need to do is cobble together a temporary majority, push through legislation that expands federal power, and then find some clairvoyant judges dedicated to empathy rather than their oath. All of this is fine, according to the Supreme Court, as long as politicians had good intentions.
 

JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
27,399
3,947
126
All liberals need to do is cobble together a temporary majority, push through legislation that expands federal power, and then find some clairvoyant judges dedicated to empathy rather than their oath. All of this is fine, according to the Supreme Court, as long as politicians had good intentions.

^^^ imagine this guys brain existing for eternity. :biggrin:

luckily that wont happen. We are going into the future without you bud. Deal with it.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
110,568
29,172
146
All liberals need to do is cobble together a temporary majority, push through legislation that expands federal power, and then find some clairvoyant judges dedicated to empathy rather than their oath. All of this is fine, according to the Supreme Court, as long as politicians had good intentions.

holy shit I bet you had a horrible week. You could use a fat doobie, brutha.

:D
 

First

Lifer
Jun 3, 2002
10,518
271
136
Its going to death spiral anyway.

<-- This is me not caring since I now have employer insurance. But let me tell you... the individual market is basically dead.

And for all the older people with nice plans who think they did a good thing supporting obamacare... wait for the cadillac tax :).

The ACA is not one size fits all. Guess who it fucks over? Hmm lets see. Temp workers. New college grads. Older Atypical college students who try to work while in college. People going back to college. People changing careers. etc. etc.

It's going to do just the opposite of a death spiral, actually. It'll just take a little time for you to accept the obvious, along with most conservatives.

Oh, and quoted in case you edit later, lol.
 

IGBT

Lifer
Jul 16, 2001
17,948
130
106
^^^ imagine this guys brain existing for eternity. :biggrin:

luckily that wont happen. We are going into the future without you bud. Deal with it.



..more then likely you will end up face down in the bubble bath. But there will be no brain to kill. It's already dead.
 

bozack

Diamond Member
Jan 14, 2000
7,913
12
81
So, uhh, physicians going back on their word makes the ACA the bad guy?

Don't blame the dick of a doctor & others like him for their arrogance & greed. I mean, they're doctors so they're entitled to that, right? Don't blame insurance company greed & stinginess, either.

Just blame Obama instead.

So now you're blaming the doctors who don't want to pay the price for this by accepting insurance plans that don't compensate well, oh wait yes they are part of the rich elite that should freely give all of their money and services away for the benefit of folks like you.

But wouldn't those changes be minor compared to a state with little or no previous mechanisms for insuring those who can't afford insurance but are above Medicaid level? The reason I'm shocked is because although wait times increased everywhere - unavoidable when there is a large influx of new demand into a system capable of only slowly increasing supply - nothing I've seen has been anything like that, even in states where previously large segments of the population had access to only emergency care.

One bizarre thing about Massachusetts is that the initial increase in patient waiting times when Romneycare went into effect never really subsided. That makes me think that there are some unique Massachusetts factors (maybe weakness in the better-paying specialist field, maybe higher taxes overall that make becoming a Massachusetts general practitioner unattractive) which is exerting a larger influence than is Obamacare. Also, it's worth noting that the ACA recognized this effect (increased waiting times due to sudden higher demand) and includes some steps to mediate it, such as funding for training and subsidizing general practitioners and nurses. Perhaps these need to be increased, perhaps these need to be better divided between states (i.e. the same pay in rural North Dakota would provide a much better standard of living that in urban Massachusetts), or perhaps there is some other ACA factor that needs to be addressed/adjusted.

Before ACA I was able to get a new PCP in less than a few months, after ACA I decided to change my PCP and now it is considerably longer, and that was of the very limited options for those taking new patients...

Possibly could be related to MA and something else, but again things seemed to get considerably worse, I also have a good number of friends that now are complaining about much higher deductibles and overall worse care....then again these are all people with insurance they pay for, or that their company provides, I don't know anyone getting subsidized care as I am sure they are happy with their coverage.