Hahaha, I bet my roomate a buck I could completely change the topic of a thread. Had no idea it would be that easy. Thanks guys. Seriously though, I don't care what Ritter says, credibility is an issue in this country, and people who do stupid things (14 year old girl incident), whether they are right or wrong afterwards, loose their credibility. Bush does enough to draw parralels between himself and others throughout history, Ritter does not need to bother pointing them out.
And you're an absolute fvcking moron if you think that President Bush in any way compares to Hitler.
BTW, it's "lose".
Zebo
Elite Member
- Jul 29, 2001
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And you're an absolute fvcking moron if you think that President Bush in no way compares to Hitler.
(sorry, but I think your peers and enviroment are clouding your ojectivity)
-These neo-cons seized power in Washington through electoral malfeasance just like Hitler
-Both restricted civil liberties by playing on fear
-Both used false evidence and phony rhetoric to sell thier invasions
-Both had overwheling home support while almost nil abroad playing on fear.
-Both labled questioners of the regime as traitors (Dixie Chicks, Senator Robert Byrd, Bill Maher, and Michael Moore, to Tim Robbins and Susan Sarandon, to ABC News anchor Peter Jennings )- And lets not forget when the dems wanted to make iquiries to 911 or voting against the Patriot Act.
Zebo
Elite Member
- Jul 29, 2001
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Hell come to think of it they even labled poeple in thier own party traitors for not supporting thier econ plan. Sen Vonovish and Sen snow for not agreeing with wholesale tax cuts for the rich. Gotta love the french flag in the background on those commercials.
"And you're an absolute fvcking moron if you think that President Bush in any way compares to Hitler."
LunarRay
Diamond Member
- Mar 2, 2003
- 9,993
- 1
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And you're an absolute fvcking moron if you think that President Bush in no way compares to Hitler.
(sorry, but I think your peers and enviroment are clouding your ojectivity)
-These neo-cons seized power in Washington through electoral malfeasance just like Hitler
-Both restricted civil liberties by playing on fear
-Both used false evidence and phony rhetoric to sell thier invasions
-Both had overwheling home support while almost nil abroad playing on fear.
-Both labled questioners of the regime as traitors (Dixie Chicks, Senator Robert Byrd, Bill Maher, and Michael Moore, to Tim Robbins and Susan Sarandon, to ABC News anchor Peter Jennings )- And lets not forget when the dems wanted to make iquiries to 911 or voting against the Patriot Act.[/quote]
I think it be a far stretch to conclude that Bush compares to Hitler because of the above even if true... For one thing the enviornment is totaly differn't as are the politics... nah no match...
Zebo
Elite Member
- Jul 29, 2001
- 39,398
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Thanks
Dave you also have a problem with objectivity. Am I saying President Bush has asperations like Hitler did? No. Am I saying he's evil like Hitler? No. All I'm saying is there is striking similarities to thier methods of leadership. The association is difficult to make because of who Hitler was but it's still there. It's a hostile enviroment on the hill right now all created by the fear mongering president. I am sorry most Americans are blinded by thier patriotic fever it can only lead to bad things both here and abroad.. And don't forget they even questioned McCains patroitism in the 2000 election cycle.
Bowfinger
Lifer
- Nov 17, 2002
- 15,776
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We aren't there yet, but there are sure some disturbing parallels. Here's a thought-provoking article I stumbled across just now. In addition to the 14 common traits of fascist states from the title, the article also contains some insight into how otherwise good people got sucked into Nazism:
Good read for the open-minded.
Edit: This book was written in 1955.
I have no problems with objectivity. I simply recognize BS when I see it. I certainly won't be accused of not being objective when your entering argument is the comparison of the current President to Hitler.
Originally posted by: Carbonyl
Hmm Perhaps I have the same problem with the current. I appologize if I have offended anyone.
I seriously doubt you offended anyone. Certainly not me. If you want to discuss the issues you raised, fine let's do it. If your entering argument is Hitler and Facism then I will dismiss you as someone who needs a chin strap for your tin foil hat. Sorry.
BTW how does facism happen in a country where there is a bloodless coup every 2 or 4 years?
Zebo
Elite Member
- Jul 29, 2001
- 39,398
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Originally posted by: Ultra Quiet
Originally posted by: Carbonyl
Hmm Perhaps I have the same problem with the current. I appologize if I have offended anyone.
I seriously doubt you offended anyone. Certainly not me. If you want to discuss the issues you raised, fine let's do it. If your entering argument is Hitler and Facism then I will dismiss you as someone who needs a chin strap for your tin foil hat. Sorry.
BTW how does facism happen in a country where there is a bloodless coup every 2 or 4 years?
According to the piece BowFinger linked to leadership continuity was'nt one of the fourteen tenets of Fascism. I would argue we have gotton more Fascist-like since the 80's and hav'nt looked back looking at that page. Most of these asset forfieture laws/ higher rates of crimminalization/ gun control/ and generally less personal liberties have taken place since then from both sides. JMO and Bush is continuing the trend. Is it what the people want? Or are they being mislead to believe a more high tax/irresponsible fiscal policies/draconian state will solve thier problems/insecurities?
Originally posted by: Carbonyl
Originally posted by: Ultra Quiet
Originally posted by: Carbonyl
Hmm Perhaps I have the same problem with the current. I appologize if I have offended anyone.
I seriously doubt you offended anyone. Certainly not me. If you want to discuss the issues you raised, fine let's do it. If your entering argument is Hitler and Facism then I will dismiss you as someone who needs a chin strap for your tin foil hat. Sorry.
BTW how does facism happen in a country where there is a bloodless coup every 2 or 4 years?
According to the piece BowFinger linked to leadership continuity was'nt one of the fourteen tenets of Fascism. I would argue we have gotton more Fascist-like since the 80's and hav'nt looked back looking at that page. Most of these asset forfieture laws/ higher rates of crimminalization/ gun control/ and generally less personal liberties have taken place since then from both sides. JMO and Bush is continuing the trend. Is it what the people want? Or are they being mislead to believe a more high tax/irresponsible fiscal policies/draconian state will solve thier problems/insecurities?
I might counter that by saying that we continue to make progress in areas such as racial equality, womens rights, gay and lesbian rights, etc. I would also remind you that we still have an elected legislature and our laws are passed by the representatives of the voting populus.
The main problem in this country continues to be a lack of participation from the voting public, an unwillingness or inability to get involved. the only people that seem to get involved are those that have the most to gain or lose by the outcome.
Whether it was in the article or not continuity has to be one of the tenets of facism.
LunarRay
Diamond Member
- Mar 2, 2003
- 9,993
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Moonbeam is gonna be so mad that he was not online to post on this thread that I wouldn't doubt he does something drastic.... like block his reflection for awhile... we'll see.
What we first have to do is unite the country against a common enemy within... how about Orangutans... we can say that they are in league with the Chimps to overthrow the banana market and put us in a depression. Since this is bad for our ability to defend against terrorism... no funds for the arms and munitions.. we can define the Orang as being seditious. There is no sure way to tell the differnce between Liberals and Orangs without DNA type matching so we suggest the government suspend the Bill of Rights, and Hillary if necessary for any one acting unusual... like posting on a forum anti administration gibberish... Once we have the Orang/Liberal confined for the test.. which could take years.. we can elect the folks who will provide the support for the Manifest Destiny of the Rightious... Once this is done we can eliminate both the Orang and the Liberal along with the Chimp and any other like thinking bipedable. We of course would use humane means to effect this. Like therapy to search their inner self for the lacking ego status and attempt brain reeducation.... if it works then they will be well again.. if not well... they will be sent to places of concentrated indoctrination... fed on a strict diet of exlax and water... and when they whine "I'll die, I'll die" we respond "You'll Sh*t! and Sh*t they will because in this world of ours the Kings word is law...
What we first have to do is unite the country against a common enemy within... how about Orangutans... we can say that they are in league with the Chimps to overthrow the banana market and put us in a depression. Since this is bad for our ability to defend against terrorism... no funds for the arms and munitions.. we can define the Orang as being seditious. There is no sure way to tell the differnce between Liberals and Orangs without DNA type matching so we suggest the government suspend the Bill of Rights, and Hillary if necessary for any one acting unusual... like posting on a forum anti administration gibberish... Once we have the Orang/Liberal confined for the test.. which could take years.. we can elect the folks who will provide the support for the Manifest Destiny of the Rightious... Once this is done we can eliminate both the Orang and the Liberal along with the Chimp and any other like thinking bipedable. We of course would use humane means to effect this. Like therapy to search their inner self for the lacking ego status and attempt brain reeducation.... if it works then they will be well again.. if not well... they will be sent to places of concentrated indoctrination... fed on a strict diet of exlax and water... and when they whine "I'll die, I'll die" we respond "You'll Sh*t! and Sh*t they will because in this world of ours the Kings word is law...
You guys and your "Hitler = Bush" comparisons just crack me up. Read up on cause and effect before you let facts get in the way of a good whine.
1. The NASPD was so desparate in 1926 that the party began a major shift in strategy. At first, one can conclude that the initial similarities to the present-day "Bush regime" seem plausible. As a result of the strategy shift, the NASPD refocused from urban areas and working-class voters to middle classes, non-voters and farmers. The similarities end there, however.
2. There were a already a number of divisions in the country courtesy of the Weimar Republic. The inroads made into the German electorate resulted from a) the depression, b) the weak response to it from mainstream parties, c) Hitler's charisma and political savvy. In other words, you guys blast Dubya for being a PR moron, yet in the same breath you compare him to Adolf Hitler.
Real intellectual reasoning, eh?
3. A political vacuum developed in German politics during the 1920s. How the NASPD began the exploitation of this vacuum was through the strong associational life which still dominates German social culture to this day. For example, the Germans have extensive club systems covering a myriad of interests. One can even find a club dedicated against formation of new ones. German associational life was, and still is much more wide-ranging than that of the American.
4. During the latter half of the 1920s, the NASPD concentrated on those who had become disillusioned with traditional party politics. Hitler recognized how associational life in clubs provided skills useful in building his party. Hitler enlisted activists with connections and cross connections within the clubs to develop local party chapters.
5. By 1928, the NASPD expanded its influence to include rural Germany. Evidence exists of the agrarpolitsche Apparat. In November 1930, the aA began a push to capture the the Reichslandbund or RLB, a major force in German agrarian life, consisting of around 5.5 million members. Walter Darre was instrumental in this success. Under his guidance, the aA continually chipped away at RLB leadership until it fell in line with the NASPD. The Nazis knew that capturing rural Germany would be instrumental in winning the 1932 elections.
6. German political parties displayed two fundamental weaknesses. First of all, because the existing parties (many more than the US) were so weak and unorganized, the middle class literally withdrew from them. The parties fixated themselves on very narrow socioeconomic groups. Workers, gentry, industrialists and Catholics each had their own respective political party. Secondly, there wasn't an adjustment by the parties, the bourgeois parties particularly, to the new era of mass politics. Therefore, many Germans joined clubs. The NASPD saw the opportunity and grabbed it.
1. The NASPD was so desparate in 1926 that the party began a major shift in strategy. At first, one can conclude that the initial similarities to the present-day "Bush regime" seem plausible. As a result of the strategy shift, the NASPD refocused from urban areas and working-class voters to middle classes, non-voters and farmers. The similarities end there, however.
2. There were a already a number of divisions in the country courtesy of the Weimar Republic. The inroads made into the German electorate resulted from a) the depression, b) the weak response to it from mainstream parties, c) Hitler's charisma and political savvy. In other words, you guys blast Dubya for being a PR moron, yet in the same breath you compare him to Adolf Hitler.
3. A political vacuum developed in German politics during the 1920s. How the NASPD began the exploitation of this vacuum was through the strong associational life which still dominates German social culture to this day. For example, the Germans have extensive club systems covering a myriad of interests. One can even find a club dedicated against formation of new ones. German associational life was, and still is much more wide-ranging than that of the American.
4. During the latter half of the 1920s, the NASPD concentrated on those who had become disillusioned with traditional party politics. Hitler recognized how associational life in clubs provided skills useful in building his party. Hitler enlisted activists with connections and cross connections within the clubs to develop local party chapters.
5. By 1928, the NASPD expanded its influence to include rural Germany. Evidence exists of the agrarpolitsche Apparat. In November 1930, the aA began a push to capture the the Reichslandbund or RLB, a major force in German agrarian life, consisting of around 5.5 million members. Walter Darre was instrumental in this success. Under his guidance, the aA continually chipped away at RLB leadership until it fell in line with the NASPD. The Nazis knew that capturing rural Germany would be instrumental in winning the 1932 elections.
6. German political parties displayed two fundamental weaknesses. First of all, because the existing parties (many more than the US) were so weak and unorganized, the middle class literally withdrew from them. The parties fixated themselves on very narrow socioeconomic groups. Workers, gentry, industrialists and Catholics each had their own respective political party. Secondly, there wasn't an adjustment by the parties, the bourgeois parties particularly, to the new era of mass politics. Therefore, many Germans joined clubs. The NASPD saw the opportunity and grabbed it.
Of course President Bush compares to Hitler in two ways that I can think of:
1. President Bush is human; Hitler was human (at least physically).
2. President Bush is the executive leader of his country; Hitler was in charge of his country.
The resemblence ceases there. Further comparisons are not borne of some intellectual curiousity but only a pathetic attempt to demean President Bush and the Republican Party.
No need to feel sorry because you are wrong. I will not tolerate a deliberate and hateful smear of the leader of the free world who also happens to be my President and my Commander in Chief. I would have never compared Clinton to Hitler in any way because it's simply too asinine and childish to do so. Those characteristics seem to be the last bastion of the Bush-haters, however.
I'll ignore the first one because some people's perception of the truth will never coincide with reality. However, no one in this administration has "played on fear" with regard to the VERY REAL terrorist attacks on September 11th -- unless you're going to insinuate that those attacks were conducted by government agents. As for the lack of support abroad, it seems that the Iraqi people support what we have done in their country from the reports I've read. Well, that is, except for the Ba'athists, but you're not saying they speak for the Iraqi people, are you? Beyond the Iraqis, it doesn't really matter who supports our actions because they aren't involved in a meaningful manner. Even the French have begun to question the policies of their government with regard to Iraq after seeing the images of Iraqis celebrating the downfall of Saddam.
Exactly who in the administration of President Bush has labeled anyone a traitor? You go from comparing President Bush to Hitler to tagging every political statement made by self-proclaimed conservatives as coming from or somehow implicating President Bush. How do the statements of Rush Limbaugh make President Bush comparable to Hitler? Please explain that one.
Last question: Is Peter Jennings even an American citizen?
sMiLeYz
Platinum Member
- Feb 3, 2003
- 2,696
- 0
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Speaking of Hitler and Bush or whether you can or cannot compare them, I thought I'd bring up something I found rather amusing:
http://www.takebackthemedia.com/bushnonazi.html
http://www.takebackthemedia.com/bushnonazi.html
LunarRay
Diamond Member
- Mar 2, 2003
- 9,993
- 1
- 76
Well Beamer, I tried...
I tried to post something ideosyncratic regarding the obsurdity of the polar regions... but, alas... without your moniker attached not an instant notice was given... I preceive... There is but one who can engage the certain with the fallacy of their own uncertainty... You the man!!!!
I tried to post something ideosyncratic regarding the obsurdity of the polar regions... but, alas... without your moniker attached not an instant notice was given... I preceive... There is but one who can engage the certain with the fallacy of their own uncertainty... You the man!!!!
Bowfinger
Lifer
- Nov 17, 2002
- 15,776
- 392
- 126
A couple of quick points:
- The Bush administration has absolutely, inarguably "played on fear" to push through its repressive agenda. How do you think we got the so-called PATRIOT Act, The Department of Homeland Security, all of the political detainees being held without due process, etc.?
- Bush doesn't have to "conduct" the attacks to take advantage of them. He grabbed the opportunity to deflect attention from his poor domestic performance, derail investigations in corporate scandals tied to his administration, and give John Ashcroft a fascist's greatest birthday present ever.
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