Scores killed in China protests

[Atreus21]

Originally posted by: rchiu

Originally posted by: Sacrilege

Perhaps a better word would have been racist.

No more racist then your typical white dude in some trailer park.

Calling white people in trailer parks racist is racist.

 

[Dr. Zaus]

Originally posted by: makken

Originally posted by: DixyCrat

Why this is repression: The religious books of these faiths is repressed and 'churches' are for show allowing some few who are visitors or tokens to worship. I know people who smuggle bibles into China.

eh?
I'm currently posting from Beijing and every hotel i've been in has had a bible. I'm sure their library has one as well --- yup, just checked, it does.

Its for show, you can bring them into bejing but just try giving them away in the less touristy provinces. Heck try flying into one of the less touristy provinces with a few in your satchel; if they catch you, they will confiscate them.

Han Chinese 91.5%, Zhuang, Manchu, Hui, Miao, Uyghur, Tujia, Yi, Mongol, Tibetan, Buyi, Dong, Yao, Korean, and other nationalities 8.5% (2000 census)
8.5% is 113 million people, those people speak a different language and live a different life style, they are told how to live, who can move up in life, whose life is worthy of freedom and who's isn't;

I somehow lost you when you went from only 1% of people are allowed to move to if you're a minority you're automatically oppressed. There are minorites that reside in beijing and other urban cities you know, it's not 100% han.

I'm not saying that, simply that minorities tend to live in places they would rather not be in and that the government denies them the ability to move. All absolutes are wrong, you know.

Let people claim independence?

this is a false dichotomy; you do not have to have either totalitarianism or anarchy, you could offer an autonomously elected body to rule the people in every way but those few necessary for the common welfare.. like a state, perhaps, with actual, true, elections; a freedom of speech and freedom of assembly.

 

[rchiu]

Originally posted by: DixyCrat

If everyone moved, the big cities in China would be even more overcrowded. Where will all the people stay? In slums? You have diseases and crime shoot up. There's a billion people in China.

I sympathize with the plights that freedom would bring but dealing with the homeless by enslaving them is a clear violation of human rights.

So if only 1% of people are allowed to move, where does all these migrant worker who lost their job came from?

Migrant labor is not the same as allowing people to change their permanent home to where they like. Your observation that 1.5% of the population are migrant workers in no way changes the fact that people are surfs to the land.

Mexicans coming to America for a better life is not the proper analogy. Not letting someone move from Wyoming to California is more like the situation. Except the Provence that these people are stuck in is one where they have NO chance of EVER changing their living situation to something better, no matter how smart, dedicated or hard working they are.

Chinese fascism gives you stability at the cost of destroying the ability smart, hardworking dedicated people to ever move from their place.

The concept of "it does not matter how smart you are, you are screwed" is so foreign to us smarty-pants Americans that it hardly computes... but that is the reality for millions of Chinese.

what 1.5%? it's more like 10+% migrant workers have moved to the major cities. And what's ur definition of "surf to the land?" Even those migrant workers lost their job, very few of them actually returned to where they come from and kept staying in the cities. Many of them have stayed for 1, 5 or 10+ years.

Household registration is like that one child policy. There are stated rules and there are actual enforcement that can be different from place to place, situation by situation. And just because back in the 70's it was enforced certain way, it doesn't mean it is enforced the same way today in 2009. And before you shoot your mouth with catch phrases like fascist, try to pretend you have the responsibility to control the 1.3 billion population, as well as all those over crowded cities in the coastal area to prevent diseases outbreak, sanitation, job availability.....etc and see what bright ideas you can come up with.

 

[Dr. Zaus]

There are stated rules and there are actual enforcement that can be different from place to place, situation by situation. And just because back in the 70's it was enforced certain way, it doesn't mean it is enforced the same way today in 2009.

A slightly less enforcement of a draconian law is no less a draconian law.
The Chinese law requires the people to be surfs and leads to a hundreds of thousands of female babies being killed because they are an undesirable gender. Less enforcement of mass murder and the biggest enslavement of humans ever seen on this planet being "not necessarily enforced for everyone" does not mean that everything is roses.

Don't obfuscate the truth with half-whited attempts to build an argument I am not making and then argue against it.

try to pretend you have the responsibility to control the 1.3 billion population, as well as all those over crowded cities in the coastal area to prevent diseases outbreak, sanitation, job availability.....etc and see what bright ideas you can come up with.

A representative democracy with a strong social protections that rewards hard work, intelligence and dedication would "control" those people without violating their basic human rights.

you see, Capitalism can only work in a democracy because only in a democracy do the people have the outlet of legislation to fix the problems of capitalism; the pollution problem is an example of this.

It is interesting how easy it is to "control" your people when you stop trying to control them and instead educate and enlighten them.

 

[Dari]

Originally posted by: rchiu

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: rchiu

Originally posted by: DixyCrat
Violence in China's restive western region of Xinjiang has left at least 140 people dead and more than 800 people injured, state media say

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8135203.stm

China is one country but not one nation. The values and beliefs of people across the nation vary so much that noam chomsky says that there is no 'Chinese' language and refuses to call the different languages spoken by the Chinese 'dialects' any more than Spanish is a 'dialect' of Italian.

Stop exaggerating. Yes China is made up of many different ethnic groups. A country with 4000 years of history, war and conquer will do that to you. But Han people is about 92% of the population with the rest of 50something minority group made up of the other 8%. I would not call that "not one nation". I would say there are more than 8% of people who don't speak english at all right here in the US.

A lot of those minorities don't want to be part of China. China captured them and is populating the restive areas with Han Chinese. I have no opinion on the rights of any of these groups, but don't pretend that all these groups are content with their political masters and can exercise their rights given to them by the Chinese constitution. In essence, China is a fascist state that is being held together by force.

Again, what would you have China do? Let people claim independence? Why didn't the great Lincoln be so giving and why he must go to war with the South? Why doesn't India just give Kashmir to Pakistan or let it become independent? So by your logic, any country that try to keep it's sovereignty intact is a fascist state?

I expect them to do exactly what they're doing right now, bludgeoning the people into submission. Perhaps if the independence seekers got enough heavy weapons or were better organized, they could overcome the Chinese hordes. But those scenerios are up to them.

Of course, the better route would be to let people express themselves through democratic means. But the current Chinese leadership is too insecure to let that happen.

 

[Wreckem]

Originally posted by: rchiu

Originally posted by: Sacrilege

Originally posted by: rchiu

Originally posted by: DixyCrat

Originally posted by: guyver01

Originally posted by: DixyCrat
It is illeal to move from one provence to another in china.

maybe i missed it in the article.. but where does it state that?

It doesn't. I'm simply providing context to the social-disorder that the article talks about based on information I've gotten from Chinese cohorts.

I would say there are more than 8% of people who don't speak english at all right here in the US.

only 8%? that's over 100 million people; Portugal has a population of only 10 million, France only 65million and they qualify for a nation and a language.

The point is that if 100 million white people where being used as surfs we would think that was a bad thing.. but because that many people are being enslaved by a nation of people that don't look a lot like the US founding fathers we look the other way.

First of all, your info is seriously outdated. People from inner province have been moving to coastal area to look for better work for ages. Even people from Taiwan, who is supposed to be the enemy of China, work and live freely in China.

And second, citing abosolute number is meaningless. Any fraction of Chinese population is gonna be large with their #1 population. And it's hard for any country to claim the country is uniform with diversity being the keyword these days. Even France in your example have about 5~10% Muslim with very different background and language from the typical French people. Right here in the US, ~34% minority, 15% Hispanic, many of which don't speak English at home.

Lastly, where do you get all the minority are being enslaved? It's two way street. Minority don't riot/claim independance, there will be no crackdown. There are many other minorities that have blended well with the Han peoeple. And for those minority who wanna seek independance, just prepare to shed blood like everyone else, like US during Civil war, like US during war against British. But to think China should/will just sit there and allow people to claim independance and not use force is just being stupid.

The problem is some Hans, particularly the "young, patriotic" types, hold beliefs which can only be described as fascism.

oh really? how many of those people do you personally know? I've met hundreds of han chinese from China personally during my study, work and 100% of them are pure capitalist and none of them fascist.

Facism has nothing to do with economics like capitalism.

Facism = limiting/taking away rights.

 

[OCGuy]

Guys, remember the Opening Ceremony? Seriously, it was awesome. How could you hate China after a display like that?

 

[Dari]

Originally posted by: OCguy
Guys, remember the Opening Ceremony? Seriously, it was awesome. How could you hate China after a display like that?

When they started cheating...

 

[Born2bwire]

Originally posted by: rchiu

Originally posted by: DixyCrat

Where do you get all 100 million are being repressed?

from <a target=_blank class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="https://www.cia.gov/l............ml"><a target=_blank class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="https://www.cia.gov/l............H.html"><a target=_blank class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="https://www.cia.gov/l............os/CH.html"><a target=_blank class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="https://www.cia.gov/libr.........k/geos/CH.html"><a target=_blank class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="https://www.cia.gov/library......tbook/geos/CH.html"><a target=_blank class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="https://www.cia.gov/library/pu...-factbook/geos/CH.html"><a target=_blank class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="https://www.cia.gov/library/pu...-factbook/geos/CH.html">https://www.cia.gov/l............t;</a></a>

Population: 1,338,612,968 (July 2009 est.)
Christian 3%-4%, Muslim 1%-2%

Why this is repression: The religious books of these faiths is repressed and 'churches' are for show allowing some few who are visitors or tokens to worship. I know people who smuggle bibles into China.

urban population: 43% of total population (2008)
rate of urbanization: 2.7% annual rate of change (2005-10 est.)

Why this is repression: In his book Alan green span says that only 1% of those who apply to move to the urban centers are actually approved for the move; any time you are not allowed to leave but, rather, required to work the land you were born in it is called forced-servitude, slavery or 'Surfdom'

Han Chinese 91.5%, Zhuang, Manchu, Hui, Miao, Uyghur, Tujia, Yi, Mongol, Tibetan, Buyi, Dong, Yao, Korean, and other nationalities 8.5% (2000 census)
8.5% is 113 million people, those people speak a different language and live a different life style, they are told how to live, who can move up in life, whose life is worthy of freedom and who's isn't;

Just because you may have access to freedom of the press when you leave china does not mean that a life time of propaganda doesn't warp your perspective on the world. The environmental destruction of the lands inhabited by minority populations has been well documented.

How many people in the US grow up with a 'free' press, have full access to information and still think Iraq had WMDs?

20 million migrant workers lost job

So if only 1% of people are allowed to move, where does all these migrant worker who lost their job came from? Do the math, if 20 mil = 15% (unemployed migrant worker), what is the total number of migrant worker. Considering the total employee pool in China, what is that percent? I am sure that's > 1% that you pull out of your @ss.

Again, where do you get those 113million people are told how to live? Are 15% of hispanic here told how to live? told what language to speak? There are minorities in every country, they have to learn to speak the national language but it doesn't mean they don't have any right or freedom. In fact, Chinese constitution spell out that every minority should enjoy equal right as the han people, and not only that, minority group don't have to follow the one child policy that han people have to follow.

Educate yourself before you spew more bs on the Internet.

Hahah, almost EVERYONE speaks a different language. Very few provinces speak the mandarin dialect, Han or not.

 

[CottonRabbit]

Originally posted by: Born2bwire

Hahah, almost EVERYONE speaks a different language. Very few provinces speak the mandarin dialect, Han or not.

~800 million native mandarin speakers is very few?

 

[Andrew1990]

wow, its like looking into our future.......


J/K


Anyways, its been a while since my last riot, but shouldn't the protesters have a goal in which they are trying to accomplish? I mean, just flipping over cars, that is so 1984....

 

[metalmania]

Here is the youtube video link from a Korean TV station: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=psm8CG0MzTU

The Chinese government is too weak to handle the Muslim problem in Xinjiang. They gave Muslim people too many privileges. For so many years, the Muslim people can break the law and walk away without any punishment. However last time they raped some Han women workers in Guangdoong, the authorities would not interfere or press charges, so the Han workers united and attacked the Xinjiang Muslim workers. Thus the riot happened a few days ago and the Muslim killed 156 Han people with over 1000 Han people injured.

This is the conflict between Muslim and Han. End of the story.

 

[dainthomas]

Originally posted by: DixyCrat
These people are, sadly, surfs of the land. Only some 1% are "allowed" to move.

They surf the land? Do you mean like snowboarding or something?

 

[Ackmed]

Originally posted by: rchiu

Originally posted by: DixyCrat
Violence in China's restive western region of Xinjiang has left at least 140 people dead and more than 800 people injured, state media say

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8135203.stm

China is one country but not one nation. The values and beliefs of people across the nation vary so much that noam chomsky says that there is no 'Chinese' language and refuses to call the different languages spoken by the Chinese 'dialects' any more than Spanish is a 'dialect' of Italian.

Stop exaggerating. Yes China is made up of many different ethnic groups. A country with 4000 years of history, war and conquer will do that to you. But Han people is about 92% of the population with the rest of 50something minority group made up of the other 8%. I would not call that "not one nation". I would say there are more than 8% of people who don't speak english at all right here in the US.

Maybe, but they're boarder crossing, free loading mexicans.

 

[tk149]

Just wanted to throw this in here:

1. My friends from China have said that it is illegal to move to a major city without a permit. Millions do so anyway, and consequently get paid low illegal immigrant wages for crappy jobs.

2. Languages are very different within China. My friend does not speak the same language as her father-in-law/mother-in-law even though they only lived an hour's drive apart. Apparently, this is common in China (for older folks), despite the mandatory use of Mandarin as the national language.

 

[Dr. Zaus]

Originally posted by: tk149
Just wanted to throw this in here:

1. My friends from China have said that it is illegal to move to a major city without a permit. Millions do so anyway, and consequently get paid low illegal immigrant wages for crappy jobs.

2. Languages are very different within China. My friend does not speak the same language as her father-in-law/mother-in-law even though they only lived an hour's drive apart. Apparently, this is common in China (for older folks), despite the mandatory use of Mandarin as the national language.

informative

Maybe, but they're boarder crossing, free loading mexicans.

the difference is that 'mexicans' are 'americans' in one generation and people come here to escape poverty and work hard... oh and they come from another country which has its own sovereign rule... not so with the 'illegal immigration' in china.

 

[StageLeft]

Well no argument from me, China sounds like a real sh*thole for the most part. Its gov sucks and I wouldn't be surprised if some automated software was scanning that fellow's post from above who was posting from the hotel room, considering how much they sensor information there.

 

[Born2bwire]

Originally posted by: CottonRabbit

Originally posted by: Born2bwire

Hahah, almost EVERYONE speaks a different language. Very few provinces speak the mandarin dialect, Han or not.

~800 million native mandarin speakers is very few?

Many people do not speak it natively. Shanghai has its own dialect, Tianjin has its own dialect, Guangdong has its own dialect, etc. etc. Mandarin is the national language, but it is usually not the local language. Most of the younger people seem to be better with mandarin, especially here in Hong Kong since the change over is still fairly recent, but they still know and speak their local dialects when they can.

 

[CottonRabbit]

Originally posted by: Born2bwire

Originally posted by: CottonRabbit

Originally posted by: Born2bwire

Hahah, almost EVERYONE speaks a different language. Very few provinces speak the mandarin dialect, Han or not.

~800 million native mandarin speakers is very few?

Many people do not speak it natively. Shanghai has its own dialect, Tianjin has its own dialect, Guangdong has its own dialect, etc. etc. Mandarin is the national language, but it is usually not the local language. Most of the younger people seem to be better with mandarin, especially here in Hong Kong since the change over is still fairly recent, but they still know and speak their local dialects when they can.

According to wiki, Mandarin has between 873 million -1.2 billion native speakers depending on the estimate. I would imagine that the vast majority of those speakers live in China.

If I go to Shanghai, Tianjin, Changcun, Kunming or almost any other major city in China, I would be able to communicate with 97% of the locals just fine knowing only normal mandarin. It would be a little bit different in Guangdong, rural areas in the south, and especially Honk Kong, but the number Cantonese only speakers is quite small compared to the total population of China. To say that China does not have a common language that is understood by the majority of its populace is false.

Edit: used a wrong number

 

[rchiu]

Originally posted by: CottonRabbit

Originally posted by: Born2bwire

Originally posted by: CottonRabbit

Originally posted by: Born2bwire

Hahah, almost EVERYONE speaks a different language. Very few provinces speak the mandarin dialect, Han or not.

~800 million native mandarin speakers is very few?

Many people do not speak it natively. Shanghai has its own dialect, Tianjin has its own dialect, Guangdong has its own dialect, etc. etc. Mandarin is the national language, but it is usually not the local language. Most of the younger people seem to be better with mandarin, especially here in Hong Kong since the change over is still fairly recent, but they still know and speak their local dialects when they can.

According to wiki, Mandarin has between 873,000-1.2 billion native speakers depending on the estimate. I would imagine that the vast majority of those speakers live in China.

If I go to Shanghai, Tianjin, Changcun, Kunming or almost any other major city in China, I would be able to communicate with 97% of the locals just fine knowing only normal mandarin. It would be a little bit different in Guangdong, rural areas in the south, and especially Honk Kong, but the number Cantonese only speakers is quite small compared to the total population of China. To say that China does not have a common language that is understood by the majority of its populace is false.

Heh, you have to understand there are some typical Chinese basher here in this type of US forum. Those people never set their foot in China, and all they rely on are selected biased media/Interet info. And they will use BS/out dated/biased info just to support their already made up mind no matter how wrong those info are.

Some of those same people cannot even distinguish between "dialect", and "language". Yeah people in Canton speak one dialect and Shanghai speak another. But when you put all the words down on paper, they are all the same freaking words, they just sound different. 92% of han people use the same freaking language syetem with same words, maybe some different localized phrases here and there, but same Chinese characters, just with different accent/dialects when spoken. They are not using different "language".

Even with different dialects, understanding each other isn't that difficult. I am a Hakka from Taiwan. Most people in Taiwan speak Fukienese. My parents speak Hakka dialect at home, I understand Hakka, Fukienese and Mandarin just fine. I even picked up Fuzhou dialect when I met my wife who is a Indonesian Chinese came from Fuzhou 3 generations ago. My 85 year old grandma speaks Hakka all her life and hardly step out of her home town. But she communicates using Mandarin just fine with my son who grew up with his mom in Indonesia, learned Mandarin in Indonesia Chinese school with a screwed up Indonesian Chinese accent as well as some Fuzhou dialect from his mother's family influence.

My family is a living proof of how Chinese not only across province, but across continent/countries can and does communicate with Mandarin with no issue.