Scion TC...do people who own them think they are fast?

[jagec]

Originally posted by: AgaBoogaBoo
Sheesh, AT is hostile! I thought I made it clear that what I was describing was talking about simply this situation and nothing else? I said "for cars at this level" or something like that, right?

With basic FWD cars, the stock suspension is pretty basic... heh. It doesn't take anything to keep the front end up lol

Even for cars "at this level", RWD has the advantage. RWD ALWAYS has the advantage, because even a 100 hp econobox can spin the tires starting out, and if you have a RWD car where the weight (and therefore normal force, and therefore traction) transfers to the back under acceleration, it means you can go full-throttle sooner than the FWD guy, and therefore win the race. With higher HP figures, it's even more of an advantage, because neither racer will go full-throttle until third gear or so, but the RWD guy can be at a higher throttle throughout the first two gears.

Advantages of the FWD platform:
Cheap.
Compact.
Light.
noob drivers won't have to deal with oversteer.

Advantages, RWD:
Better weight balance (Which leads to better braking as well).
Better cornering, due to more even traction from the front and rear.
Better acceleration, due to weight transfer to the powered wheels

Advantages, MR:
Even better weight balance/braking
Even better cornering, due to a low polar moment of inertia and the weight balance
Even better acceleration, not only is the weight transfer to the powered wheels, but said wheels already have the weight of the engine on them

AWD should be obvious.

There's a reason why some people refer to economy "sporty" cars as "WWD"--Wrong Wheel Drive.

 

[rh71]

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus

Originally posted by: rh71
President of a the save-gas-don't-drive-SUVs brigade goes street racing... film at 11.

Hey, I drive a car a couple times a week. Why not have a little fun in it every now and then? ZOMG!!! My fuel economy probably dropped down into the mid teens for a couple seconds one day last week! I know, I'll put the car in neutral while coasting to make up for it...

Why do some of you get your panties in a knot over someone accelerating quickly from a stoplight in a non-residential area with no traffic and no danger to anyone else? This is a 4 lane divided road with a 50mph speed limit, no side streets and there was no traffic in front or behind us.

Do you ever get tired of explaining the but-it-doesn't-apply-to-me-in-this-case because of blah blah blah ?

I've wasted enough time in the past watching you attempt to weasel your way out of explaining why it's ok to drive your STi while SUV owners were being oh so wasteful. Please drop the I'm-all-good act.

 

[JulesMaximus]

Originally posted by: rh71

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus

Originally posted by: rh71
President of a the save-gas-don't-drive-SUVs brigade goes street racing... film at 11.

Hey, I drive a car a couple times a week. Why not have a little fun in it every now and then? ZOMG!!! My fuel economy probably dropped down into the mid teens for a couple seconds one day last week! I know, I'll put the car in neutral while coasting to make up for it...

Why do some of you get your panties in a knot over someone accelerating quickly from a stoplight in a non-residential area with no traffic and no danger to anyone else? This is a 4 lane divided road with a 50mph speed limit, no side streets and there was no traffic in front or behind us.

Do you ever get tired of explaining the but-it-doesn't-apply-to-me-in-this-case because of blah blah blah ?

I've wasted enough time in the past watching you attempt to weasel your way out of explaining why it's ok to drive your STi while SUV owners were being oh so wasteful. Please drop the I'm-all-good act.

Go fvck yourself. I put 6,000 miles on my car last year. I've actually done something to reduce my dependance on oil. What the hell have you done? :|

 

[ViviTheMage]

once I throw my stage 3 in my jetta and chip the lil guy, ill woop you D

 

[potoba]

Originally posted by: Jeeebus
Always good to hear that someone with a child seat in their car feels the need to compare penis size with a teenager and put his and his family's lives in jeopardy. :disgust:

:thumbsup:

 

[NaOH]

Originally posted by: jagec

Originally posted by: AgaBoogaBoo
Sheesh, AT is hostile! I thought I made it clear that what I was describing was talking about simply this situation and nothing else? I said "for cars at this level" or something like that, right?

With basic FWD cars, the stock suspension is pretty basic... heh. It doesn't take anything to keep the front end up lol

Even for cars "at this level", RWD has the advantage. RWD ALWAYS has the advantage, because even a 100 hp econobox can spin the tires starting out, and if you have a RWD car where the weight (and therefore normal force, and therefore traction) transfers to the back under acceleration, it means you can go full-throttle sooner than the FWD guy, and therefore win the race. With higher HP figures, it's even more of an advantage, because neither racer will go full-throttle until third gear or so, but the RWD guy can be at a higher throttle throughout the first two gears.

Advantages of the FWD platform:
Cheap.
Compact.
Light.
noob drivers won't have to deal with oversteer.

Advantages, RWD:
Better weight balance (Which leads to better braking as well).
Better cornering, due to more even traction from the front and rear.
Better acceleration, due to weight transfer to the powered wheels

Advantages, MR:
Even better weight balance/braking
Even better cornering, due to a low polar moment of inertia and the weight balance
Even better acceleration, not only is the weight transfer to the powered wheels, but said wheels already have the weight of the engine on them

AWD should be obvious.

There's a reason why some people refer to economy "sporty" cars as "WWD"--Wrong Wheel Drive.

On a rear wheel drive, how do you counter the oversteer. I can't control my RWD car in Forza 2 for crap..

I think I have my front a little stiffer than my rear. But my rear end keeps swinging out when i corner hard.

 

[NuroMancer]

Originally posted by: potoba

Originally posted by: Jeeebus
Always good to hear that someone with a child seat in their car feels the need to compare penis size with a teenager and put his and his family's lives in jeopardy. :disgust:

:thumbsup:

Except your a tool cause you didn't bother to read the thread.

 

[RichUK]

Originally posted by: NaOH

Originally posted by: jagec

Originally posted by: AgaBoogaBoo
Sheesh, AT is hostile! I thought I made it clear that what I was describing was talking about simply this situation and nothing else? I said "for cars at this level" or something like that, right?

With basic FWD cars, the stock suspension is pretty basic... heh. It doesn't take anything to keep the front end up lol

Even for cars "at this level", RWD has the advantage. RWD ALWAYS has the advantage, because even a 100 hp econobox can spin the tires starting out, and if you have a RWD car where the weight (and therefore normal force, and therefore traction) transfers to the back under acceleration, it means you can go full-throttle sooner than the FWD guy, and therefore win the race. With higher HP figures, it's even more of an advantage, because neither racer will go full-throttle until third gear or so, but the RWD guy can be at a higher throttle throughout the first two gears.

Advantages of the FWD platform:
Cheap.
Compact.
Light.
noob drivers won't have to deal with oversteer.

Advantages, RWD:
Better weight balance (Which leads to better braking as well).
Better cornering, due to more even traction from the front and rear.
Better acceleration, due to weight transfer to the powered wheels

Advantages, MR:
Even better weight balance/braking
Even better cornering, due to a low polar moment of inertia and the weight balance
Even better acceleration, not only is the weight transfer to the powered wheels, but said wheels already have the weight of the engine on them

AWD should be obvious.

There's a reason why some people refer to economy "sporty" cars as "WWD"--Wrong Wheel Drive.

On a rear wheel drive, how do you counter the oversteer. I can't control my RWD car in Forza 2 for crap..

I think I have my front a little stiffer than my rear. But my rear end keeps swinging out when i corner hard.

Mash the accelerator pedal solidly to the floor until you realign the car.

 

[rh71]

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus

Originally posted by: rh71

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus

Originally posted by: rh71
President of a the save-gas-don't-drive-SUVs brigade goes street racing... film at 11.

Hey, I drive a car a couple times a week. Why not have a little fun in it every now and then? ZOMG!!! My fuel economy probably dropped down into the mid teens for a couple seconds one day last week! I know, I'll put the car in neutral while coasting to make up for it...

Why do some of you get your panties in a knot over someone accelerating quickly from a stoplight in a non-residential area with no traffic and no danger to anyone else? This is a 4 lane divided road with a 50mph speed limit, no side streets and there was no traffic in front or behind us.

Do you ever get tired of explaining the but-it-doesn't-apply-to-me-in-this-case because of blah blah blah ?

I've wasted enough time in the past watching you attempt to weasel your way out of explaining why it's ok to drive your STi while SUV owners were being oh so wasteful. Please drop the I'm-all-good act.

Go fvck yourself. I put 6,000 miles on my car last year. I've actually done something to reduce my dependance on oil. What the hell have you done? :|

Haha you're unreal. I'm sure getting rid of that Rodeo you had was to save gas. Good move on the STi after.

I put like 1000 miles on my car last year. But I don't think anyone needs to care - it's all personal preference what people choose to own and you still like to think you're better than others, Mr. President. Your attitude about it all is the biggest problem. Let the excuses continue...

 

[RESmonkey]

Scions deserve to burn.

 

[SandInMyShoes]

Hmm, that's really kinda pathetic if he couldn't match you... I've driven an '03 Maxima SE auto, and didn't find it to be alot faster then my '96 Saturn coupe w/ 5spd, at least in the low gears and with good shifting... I love how the Maxima surges at ~60mph though, that's right where my Saturn dies off

 

[NuroMancer]

Originally posted by: rh71

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus

Originally posted by: rh71

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus

Originally posted by: rh71
President of a the save-gas-don't-drive-SUVs brigade goes street racing... film at 11.

Hey, I drive a car a couple times a week. Why not have a little fun in it every now and then? ZOMG!!! My fuel economy probably dropped down into the mid teens for a couple seconds one day last week! I know, I'll put the car in neutral while coasting to make up for it...

Why do some of you get your panties in a knot over someone accelerating quickly from a stoplight in a non-residential area with no traffic and no danger to anyone else? This is a 4 lane divided road with a 50mph speed limit, no side streets and there was no traffic in front or behind us.

Do you ever get tired of explaining the but-it-doesn't-apply-to-me-in-this-case because of blah blah blah ?

I've wasted enough time in the past watching you attempt to weasel your way out of explaining why it's ok to drive your STi while SUV owners were being oh so wasteful. Please drop the I'm-all-good act.

Go fvck yourself. I put 6,000 miles on my car last year. I've actually done something to reduce my dependance on oil. What the hell have you done? :|

Haha you're unreal. I'm sure getting rid of that Rodeo you had was to save gas. Good move on the STi after.

I put like 1000 miles on my car last year. But I don't think anyone needs to care - it's all personal preference what people choose to own and you still like to think you're better than others, Mr. President. Your attitude about it all is the biggest problem. Let the excuses continue...

Let me get this straight, your bashing him for having an anti suv opinion, while defending your right to have your own opinion of what you get to drive...

 

[overst33r]

Originally posted by: NaOH

Originally posted by: jagec

Originally posted by: AgaBoogaBoo
Sheesh, AT is hostile! I thought I made it clear that what I was describing was talking about simply this situation and nothing else? I said "for cars at this level" or something like that, right?

With basic FWD cars, the stock suspension is pretty basic... heh. It doesn't take anything to keep the front end up lol

Even for cars "at this level", RWD has the advantage. RWD ALWAYS has the advantage, because even a 100 hp econobox can spin the tires starting out, and if you have a RWD car where the weight (and therefore normal force, and therefore traction) transfers to the back under acceleration, it means you can go full-throttle sooner than the FWD guy, and therefore win the race. With higher HP figures, it's even more of an advantage, because neither racer will go full-throttle until third gear or so, but the RWD guy can be at a higher throttle throughout the first two gears.

Advantages of the FWD platform:
Cheap.
Compact.
Light.
noob drivers won't have to deal with oversteer.

Advantages, RWD:
Better weight balance (Which leads to better braking as well).
Better cornering, due to more even traction from the front and rear.
Better acceleration, due to weight transfer to the powered wheels

Advantages, MR:
Even better weight balance/braking
Even better cornering, due to a low polar moment of inertia and the weight balance
Even better acceleration, not only is the weight transfer to the powered wheels, but said wheels already have the weight of the engine on them

AWD should be obvious.

There's a reason why some people refer to economy "sporty" cars as "WWD"--Wrong Wheel Drive.

On a rear wheel drive, how do you counter the oversteer. I can't control my RWD car in Forza 2 for crap..

I think I have my front a little stiffer than my rear. But my rear end keeps swinging out when i corner hard.

Buy/tune your LSD. In GT4, the settings were 10 initial torque, 40 accel torque, 20 decel torque.

 

[exdeath]

Originally posted by: NaOH

Originally posted by: jagec

Originally posted by: AgaBoogaBoo
Sheesh, AT is hostile! I thought I made it clear that what I was describing was talking about simply this situation and nothing else? I said "for cars at this level" or something like that, right?

With basic FWD cars, the stock suspension is pretty basic... heh. It doesn't take anything to keep the front end up lol

Even for cars "at this level", RWD has the advantage. RWD ALWAYS has the advantage, because even a 100 hp econobox can spin the tires starting out, and if you have a RWD car where the weight (and therefore normal force, and therefore traction) transfers to the back under acceleration, it means you can go full-throttle sooner than the FWD guy, and therefore win the race. With higher HP figures, it's even more of an advantage, because neither racer will go full-throttle until third gear or so, but the RWD guy can be at a higher throttle throughout the first two gears.

Advantages of the FWD platform:
Cheap.
Compact.
Light.
noob drivers won't have to deal with oversteer.

Advantages, RWD:
Better weight balance (Which leads to better braking as well).
Better cornering, due to more even traction from the front and rear.
Better acceleration, due to weight transfer to the powered wheels

Advantages, MR:
Even better weight balance/braking
Even better cornering, due to a low polar moment of inertia and the weight balance
Even better acceleration, not only is the weight transfer to the powered wheels, but said wheels already have the weight of the engine on them

AWD should be obvious.

There's a reason why some people refer to economy "sporty" cars as "WWD"--Wrong Wheel Drive.

On a rear wheel drive, how do you counter the oversteer. I can't control my RWD car in Forza 2 for crap..

I think I have my front a little stiffer than my rear. But my rear end keeps swinging out when i corner hard.

Ease off the throttle and gently steer in the direction that the rear is traveling (if you do it on purpose around a corner hard enough, they call it drifting). Do not brake, it will make it worse. Main thing is back off the throttle, as that is what is breaking the rear wheels loose and allowing the sliding. Steer in opposite direction in a turn to keep the front end lined up with the rear to keep the car from swapping ends.

Braking is bad, it will transfer weight to the front of the car and lift the rear, allowing for the rear to slide even easier.

 

[exdeath]

Originally posted by: RichUK

Originally posted by: NaOH

Originally posted by: jagec

Originally posted by: AgaBoogaBoo
Sheesh, AT is hostile! I thought I made it clear that what I was describing was talking about simply this situation and nothing else? I said "for cars at this level" or something like that, right?

With basic FWD cars, the stock suspension is pretty basic... heh. It doesn't take anything to keep the front end up lol

Even for cars "at this level", RWD has the advantage. RWD ALWAYS has the advantage, because even a 100 hp econobox can spin the tires starting out, and if you have a RWD car where the weight (and therefore normal force, and therefore traction) transfers to the back under acceleration, it means you can go full-throttle sooner than the FWD guy, and therefore win the race. With higher HP figures, it's even more of an advantage, because neither racer will go full-throttle until third gear or so, but the RWD guy can be at a higher throttle throughout the first two gears.

Advantages of the FWD platform:
Cheap.
Compact.
Light.
noob drivers won't have to deal with oversteer.

Advantages, RWD:
Better weight balance (Which leads to better braking as well).
Better cornering, due to more even traction from the front and rear.
Better acceleration, due to weight transfer to the powered wheels

Advantages, MR:
Even better weight balance/braking
Even better cornering, due to a low polar moment of inertia and the weight balance
Even better acceleration, not only is the weight transfer to the powered wheels, but said wheels already have the weight of the engine on them

AWD should be obvious.

There's a reason why some people refer to economy "sporty" cars as "WWD"--Wrong Wheel Drive.

On a rear wheel drive, how do you counter the oversteer. I can't control my RWD car in Forza 2 for crap..

I think I have my front a little stiffer than my rear. But my rear end keeps swinging out when i corner hard.

Mash the accelerator pedal solidly to the floor until you realign the car.

That works in a MR2 where backing off worsens the oversteer... but doing that in a front engine RWD car is a great way to get a look at the guys headlights behind you.

 

[NaOH]

Originally posted by: exdeath
Braking is bad, it will transfer weight to the front of the car and lift the rear, allowing for the rear to slide even easier.

LOL, no wonder, I always broke when i started sliding, hoping to make it stop.

So I shouldn't be breaking while I'm in the turn right? I should slow down ahead of time?

 

[RichUK]

Originally posted by: exdeath

Originally posted by: RichUK

Originally posted by: NaOH

Originally posted by: jagec

Originally posted by: AgaBoogaBoo
Sheesh, AT is hostile! I thought I made it clear that what I was describing was talking about simply this situation and nothing else? I said "for cars at this level" or something like that, right?

With basic FWD cars, the stock suspension is pretty basic... heh. It doesn't take anything to keep the front end up lol

Even for cars "at this level", RWD has the advantage. RWD ALWAYS has the advantage, because even a 100 hp econobox can spin the tires starting out, and if you have a RWD car where the weight (and therefore normal force, and therefore traction) transfers to the back under acceleration, it means you can go full-throttle sooner than the FWD guy, and therefore win the race. With higher HP figures, it's even more of an advantage, because neither racer will go full-throttle until third gear or so, but the RWD guy can be at a higher throttle throughout the first two gears.

Advantages of the FWD platform:
Cheap.
Compact.
Light.
noob drivers won't have to deal with oversteer.

Advantages, RWD:
Better weight balance (Which leads to better braking as well).
Better cornering, due to more even traction from the front and rear.
Better acceleration, due to weight transfer to the powered wheels

Advantages, MR:
Even better weight balance/braking
Even better cornering, due to a low polar moment of inertia and the weight balance
Even better acceleration, not only is the weight transfer to the powered wheels, but said wheels already have the weight of the engine on them

AWD should be obvious.

There's a reason why some people refer to economy "sporty" cars as "WWD"--Wrong Wheel Drive.

On a rear wheel drive, how do you counter the oversteer. I can't control my RWD car in Forza 2 for crap..

I think I have my front a little stiffer than my rear. But my rear end keeps swinging out when i corner hard.

Mash the accelerator pedal solidly to the floor until you realign the car.

That works in a MR2 where backing off worsens the oversteer... but doing that in a front engine RWD car is a great way to get a look at the guys headlights behind you.

This is true.

I was only messing BTW.

 

[jagec]

Originally posted by: NaOH
On a rear wheel drive, how do you counter the oversteer. I can't control my RWD car in Forza 2 for crap..

I think I have my front a little stiffer than my rear. But my rear end keeps swinging out when i corner hard.

It's probably easier in real life than in a game, simply because you have much better accelerator control (unless you have a full wheel+pedals, in a game you're either at FULL throttle, or NO throttle!). Perversely, either state can cause the rear end to step out...if you floor it on a high-powered car around a corner, the tires will break traction and you'll spin out. However, if you're cornering hard and you let up on the gas, the combination of the weight shift towards the front and engine braking can also cause your tires to lose their grip, and then centrifugal force takes care of the rest. MR cars are particular susceptible to this "snap oversteer".

The correct way of cornering is to enter a corner with the correct speed and in the correct gear (trail braking if you're good), and hold steady throttle around the corner before accelerating out.

I can play with weight shift in my car...turning loose circles on an empty parking lot with the tires howling, if I let up on the gas the weight shifts to the front, the front tires grip better and the rear steps out a little, and I turn a tighter circle. If I hit the gas, the weight shifts aft, rear plants itself solidly and I get a touch of understeer, and turn wider circles.

Originally posted by: NaOH

Originally posted by: exdeath
Braking is bad, it will transfer weight to the front of the car and lift the rear, allowing for the rear to slide even easier.

LOL, no wonder, I always broke when i started sliding, hoping to make it stop.

So I shouldn't be breaking while I'm in the turn right? I should slow down ahead of time?

Yes. Braking in a turn will kill your time and your turn radius in a car, and will kill you on a motorcycle. If you're a really good driver you can still be slightly on the brakes as you begin the corner, and smoothly easy off of them and back on the gas as you ease the wheel over more, but it's hard to find that balance. I can't do it smoothly, so I just slow down ahead of time.

 

[JulesMaximus]

Originally posted by: rh71

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus

Originally posted by: rh71

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus

Originally posted by: rh71
President of a the save-gas-don't-drive-SUVs brigade goes street racing... film at 11.

Hey, I drive a car a couple times a week. Why not have a little fun in it every now and then? ZOMG!!! My fuel economy probably dropped down into the mid teens for a couple seconds one day last week! I know, I'll put the car in neutral while coasting to make up for it...

Why do some of you get your panties in a knot over someone accelerating quickly from a stoplight in a non-residential area with no traffic and no danger to anyone else? This is a 4 lane divided road with a 50mph speed limit, no side streets and there was no traffic in front or behind us.

Do you ever get tired of explaining the but-it-doesn't-apply-to-me-in-this-case because of blah blah blah ?

I've wasted enough time in the past watching you attempt to weasel your way out of explaining why it's ok to drive your STi while SUV owners were being oh so wasteful. Please drop the I'm-all-good act.

Go fvck yourself. I put 6,000 miles on my car last year. I've actually done something to reduce my dependance on oil. What the hell have you done? :|

Haha you're unreal. I'm sure getting rid of that Rodeo you had was to save gas. Good move on the STi after.

I put like 1000 miles on my car last year. But I don't think anyone needs to care - it's all personal preference what people choose to own and you still like to think you're better than others, Mr. President. Your attitude about it all is the biggest problem. Let the excuses continue...

I didn't get rid of the Rodeo to save gas. I got rid of the Rodeo because it was a steaming pile of crap.

As for your other argument, half the country isn't driving around in sports cars that get 15mpg. Look, I'm not some enviro-nazi out setting fire to car lots with SUVs, I'm just asking people to think about the choices they make. I don't think I need to drive a Prius to make that observation or have that point of view. I sure as hell am not going to drive an SUV though.

When my wife and I bought our latest car, fuel economy and emissions were considerations for us which is one of the reasons it made it easy to buy the Lexus IS250. When I bought the Maxima I wasn't as concerned about fuel economy or emissions (I assumed that the Maxima would be fairly green-I was wrong...it's not that great). You want to know why I bought the Maxima? Because I had a baby boy and getting him in and out of my previous vehicle was a real PITA and I got a killer deal on it.

BTW-I don't ride my bike to work because I'm some big enviro-Nazi, I ride it because I enjoy it. The fact that I save on gas and I'm not polluting the planet is just a bonus, a fact that I admit freely and frequently...sorry if it bugs you so much.

 

[Aimster]

Originally posted by: SandInMyShoes
Hmm, that's really kinda pathetic if he couldn't match you... I've driven an '03 Maxima SE auto, and didn't find it to be alot faster then my '96 Saturn coupe w/ 5spd, at least in the low gears and with good shifting... I love how the Maxima surges at ~60mph though, that's right where my Saturn dies off

Maxima 6spds can run in the 14s.

Don't know about the 4-speed.

 

[AgaBoogaBoo]

Originally posted by: exdeath
Your bolded edited part is still wrong.

It does matter where the weight shifts because of physics; moment of inertia will always shift in the direction opposite of acceleration. This automatically puts RWD at an inherent traction advantage over FWD.

It isn't FWD that is responsible for the slightly lower drive train loss, its the transverse mounting of the engine that eliminates the need for the ring and pinion gear in the differential.

Total friction and energy? Not sure where you are going with this, you're not really making sense. Again, RWD is superior for traction as you have four wheels contributing to contact with the road; the front wheels provide friction for steering and the rear wheels provide friction for propulsion. With FWD, you have the same tires doing both, greatly cutting down on traction and steering abilities since both functions have to share the same contact patches while the rear tires are merely dead weight.

I doubt a Scion is going to have traction issues after first gear, and not even then if they know how to properly launch it, limits of the car, etc.

If this is the case for both cars, it doesn't matter if it's FWD or RWD except for the drivetrain.

Whatever it is, it ends up being that FWD has less drivetrain loss than RWD setups, right? I'll agree that it could be due to the mounting of the engine and needing less parts, but this still agrees with my statement that FWD will have less loss than RWD?

What you said basically makes sense, I'm just generalizing that FWD has less drivetrain loss than a RWD setup, for most cases in present day cars.

What I meant by total friction and energy is that as long as all the wheels are on the ground, it doesn't matter where the power is coming from, issue is when they are not able to maintain that friction and break loose. Till that point, which many FWD cars won't see like a Scion, again, if properly driven, means that it doesn't matter if it's FWD or RWD except for differences in weight and drivetrain loss due to whatever it may be.

Edit: I guess I left out that momentary difference in time when the RWD car can hit full throttle versus the FWD. How significant is this for the cars at the level we're talking about?

 

[AgaBoogaBoo]

Originally posted by: jagec

Originally posted by: AgaBoogaBoo
Sheesh, AT is hostile! I thought I made it clear that what I was describing was talking about simply this situation and nothing else? I said "for cars at this level" or something like that, right?

With basic FWD cars, the stock suspension is pretty basic... heh. It doesn't take anything to keep the front end up lol

Even for cars "at this level", RWD has the advantage. RWD ALWAYS has the advantage, because even a 100 hp econobox can spin the tires starting out, and if you have a RWD car where the weight (and therefore normal force, and therefore traction) transfers to the back under acceleration, it means you can go full-throttle sooner than the FWD guy, and therefore win the race. With higher HP figures, it's even more of an advantage, because neither racer will go full-throttle until third gear or so, but the RWD guy can be at a higher throttle throughout the first two gears.

Advantages of the FWD platform:
Cheap.
Compact.
Light.
noob drivers won't have to deal with oversteer.

Advantages, RWD:
Better weight balance (Which leads to better braking as well).
Better cornering, due to more even traction from the front and rear.
Better acceleration, due to weight transfer to the powered wheels

Advantages, MR:
Even better weight balance/braking
Even better cornering, due to a low polar moment of inertia and the weight balance
Even better acceleration, not only is the weight transfer to the powered wheels, but said wheels already have the weight of the engine on them

AWD should be obvious.

There's a reason why some people refer to economy "sporty" cars as "WWD"--Wrong Wheel Drive.

Again, makes perfect sense. My point was simply differing at the point where you said the statement about launching the car. If the drivers of these econoboxes are launching it properly, wheel spin shouldn't be an issue and the moment between partial throttle and full throttle should not be that great. If they're already rolling, it doesn't matter, which in this case it seems they were.

Just to clarify, everything you said makes sense except my confusion on the part of an econobox's launch versus something RWD.

 

[exdeath]

Originally posted by: jagec

Originally posted by: NaOH
On a rear wheel drive, how do you counter the oversteer. I can't control my RWD car in Forza 2 for crap..

I think I have my front a little stiffer than my rear. But my rear end keeps swinging out when i corner hard.

It's probably easier in real life than in a game, simply because you have much better accelerator control (unless you have a full wheel+pedals, in a game you're either at FULL throttle, or NO throttle!). Perversely, either state can cause the rear end to step out...if you floor it on a high-powered car around a corner, the tires will break traction and you'll spin out. However, if you're cornering hard and you let up on the gas, the combination of the weight shift towards the front and engine braking can also cause your tires to lose their grip, and then centrifugal force takes care of the rest. MR cars are particular susceptible to this "snap oversteer".

The correct way of cornering is to enter a corner with the correct speed and in the correct gear (trail braking if you're good), and hold steady throttle around the corner before accelerating out.

I can play with weight shift in my car...turning loose circles on an empty parking lot with the tires howling, if I let up on the gas the weight shifts to the front, the front tires grip better and the rear steps out a little, and I turn a tighter circle. If I hit the gas, the weight shifts aft, rear plants itself solidly and I get a touch of understeer, and turn wider circles.

Originally posted by: NaOH

Originally posted by: exdeath
Braking is bad, it will transfer weight to the front of the car and lift the rear, allowing for the rear to slide even easier.

LOL, no wonder, I always broke when i started sliding, hoping to make it stop.

So I shouldn't be breaking while I'm in the turn right? I should slow down ahead of time?

Yes. Braking in a turn will kill your time and your turn radius in a car, and will kill you on a motorcycle. If you're a really good driver you can still be slightly on the brakes as you begin the corner, and smoothly easy off of them and back on the gas as you ease the wheel over more, but it's hard to find that balance. I can't do it smoothly, so I just slow down ahead of time.

Its so much easier in real life than in a video game. It doesn't matter what controllers or steering wheels you have, the inertial feedback you get in a real car cannot be simulated in a game. It's hard to explain, in a real car you can just 'feel' where you and the car are and where you are going, and video and audio cannot communicate that information.

 

[exdeath]

Originally posted by: AgaBoogaBoo

Originally posted by: exdeath
Your bolded edited part is still wrong.

It does matter where the weight shifts because of physics; moment of inertia will always shift in the direction opposite of acceleration. This automatically puts RWD at an inherent traction advantage over FWD.

It isn't FWD that is responsible for the slightly lower drive train loss, its the transverse mounting of the engine that eliminates the need for the ring and pinion gear in the differential.

Total friction and energy? Not sure where you are going with this, you're not really making sense. Again, RWD is superior for traction as you have four wheels contributing to contact with the road; the front wheels provide friction for steering and the rear wheels provide friction for propulsion. With FWD, you have the same tires doing both, greatly cutting down on traction and steering abilities since both functions have to share the same contact patches while the rear tires are merely dead weight.

I doubt a Scion is going to have traction issues after first gear, and not even then if they know how to properly launch it, limits of the car, etc.

If this is the case for both cars, it doesn't matter if it's FWD or RWD except for the drivetrain.

Whatever it is, it ends up being that FWD has less drivetrain loss than RWD setups, right? I'll agree that it could be due to the mounting of the engine and needing less parts, but this still agrees with my statement that FWD will have less loss than RWD?

What you said basically makes sense, I'm just generalizing that FWD has less drivetrain loss than a RWD setup, for most cases in present day cars.

What I meant by total friction and energy is that as long as all the wheels are on the ground, it doesn't matter where the power is coming from, issue is when they are not able to maintain that friction and break loose. Till that point, which many FWD cars won't see like a Scion, again, if properly driven, means that it doesn't matter if it's FWD or RWD except for differences in weight and drivetrain loss due to whatever it may be.

Weight over the drive wheels = greater normal force = greater friction = better traction = ability to handle greater power before losing traction.

Sure it doesn't matter in a 140 HP Scion, but what would you rather have with 800 WHP, FWD or RWD?

It doesn't matter if you have a 2% difference in drivetrain loss if the FWD vehicle can't get as good grip as the RWD vehicle in order to handle as much power.

Why do you think a 400 WHP turbo Camry that weighs only 2800 lbs only runs 13s-14s in the 1/4 while a stock '03 Cobra that weights almost 1000 lbs more with the same horsepower can run 12s? The suspension and drivetrain layout of FWD does not lend itself well to rapid acceleration.

If you don't have enough power for it to be an issue, than your 0-60 is 10 days anyway and theres no reason to care if its FWD or RWD. But as the power increases, it's time to go to RWD, not just for traction, but other problems like torque steer and being able to control the steering and the throttle independently of each other, etc.

 

[rh71]

Originally posted by: NuroMancer

Originally posted by: rh71

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus

Originally posted by: rh71

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus

Originally posted by: rh71
President of a the save-gas-don't-drive-SUVs brigade goes street racing... film at 11.

Hey, I drive a car a couple times a week. Why not have a little fun in it every now and then? ZOMG!!! My fuel economy probably dropped down into the mid teens for a couple seconds one day last week! I know, I'll put the car in neutral while coasting to make up for it...

Why do some of you get your panties in a knot over someone accelerating quickly from a stoplight in a non-residential area with no traffic and no danger to anyone else? This is a 4 lane divided road with a 50mph speed limit, no side streets and there was no traffic in front or behind us.

Do you ever get tired of explaining the but-it-doesn't-apply-to-me-in-this-case because of blah blah blah ?

I've wasted enough time in the past watching you attempt to weasel your way out of explaining why it's ok to drive your STi while SUV owners were being oh so wasteful. Please drop the I'm-all-good act.

Go fvck yourself. I put 6,000 miles on my car last year. I've actually done something to reduce my dependance on oil. What the hell have you done? :|

Haha you're unreal. I'm sure getting rid of that Rodeo you had was to save gas. Good move on the STi after.

I put like 1000 miles on my car last year. But I don't think anyone needs to care - it's all personal preference what people choose to own and you still like to think you're better than others, Mr. President. Your attitude about it all is the biggest problem. Let the excuses continue...

Let me get this straight, your bashing him for having an anti suv opinion, while defending your right to have your own opinion of what you get to drive...

Maybe you had to be there, but this guy went 5-10 replies deep going on about people's NEEDS and how most of them shouldn't drive SUVs. And of course he had his need of an STi at the same time. But wait, it's not upwards of 50% of people out there (arbitrary of course) drive sports cars, so it was alright that HE had it. NEED huh ? Excuse after excuse which he obviously had applied to his situation - all the while, nobody else could ever possibly have their own reasons for driving what they did. Flame 'em anyway. And here you have another thread how it's ok for him to street race because there's nobody else around.

It'd be different to just say it was a stupid thing to do (when is street racing not?), but he just felt like it at the time. That'd at least be honest / truthful rather than saying - but it was ok to race in this situation, and here's why! I guess he did NEED a sports car after all. For the many times when such situations call for it - right SUV owners? - we get challenged on that a lot. And you wonder why I roll my eyes at people like Jules.