School's out for... protesting?

Discussion in 'Politics and News' started by CADsortaGUY, Dec 10, 2012.

  1. cwjerome

    cwjerome Diamond Member

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    It's too bad K-12 teachers are quasi-government workers, because when there are crap teachers or crap schools all teachers everywhere get blamed. That generalization doesn't happen so much in the private sector.

    And as bad as some of those teachers and schools probably are, and as dumb as they are regarding teacher unions and things like tenure, I'm guessing they have an extremely rough demographic to work with.
     
  2. Exterous

    Exterous Lifer

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    :thumbsup:

    Yay! Information provided in a biased manner with no numbers for comparison!

    I find it very odd that these numbers are from 2011 yet the news has absolutely exploded only in the last 10 hours. And those cites all have a certain leaning to them. (Dailypaul, exposethemedia, americanconservativenews, secretsofthefed) How convenient. Also convenient is the omission of 'Basic' attainment percents. Basic is not failing. If they were to retain only a basic rating through to adulthood that would be equivalent to 'can perform everyday math/literacy activities'

    Now 7% seems pretty damn bad. And it is - don't get me wrong. DPS sucks and no one in their right mind would work there or have their kids attend there. Which is the problem. No one who cares wants their kids to go there so only those who don't care are left. How well do you think they are going to do?

    Now for some comparison:
    Philly 15%
    Milwaukee: 10%
    LA:15%
    Fresno:11%
    DCPS:13%
    Cleveland:11%
    Dallas:13%

    We can see that 7% is not that far off from similar inner city areas. Yes, DPS is at the bottom of the pile but Detroit is also a city that has experienced far more economic devastation than any other major metropolitan area.

    Maybe its more of an 'inner city, depressed socio-economic status' thing than just a 'teacher' thing.
     
    #52 Exterous, Dec 11, 2012
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2012
  3. Exterous

    Exterous Lifer

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  4. monovillage

    monovillage Diamond Member

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    You didn't have any trouble finding the information, were you home schooled or privately schooled by non-union teachers?
    If you think those numbers validate the money we spend on public education and the union teachers then you should be ashamed. Whooppee! 11% of 8th graders can actually read! Union teachers rock!

    Did you enjoy seeing the union violence in Michigan? Must make the teachers proud to see tents torn down and people beaten. Nothing like calls for blood, hatred and violence from elected Democrats is there?
     
  5. umbrella39

    umbrella39 Lifer

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    Well apparently he doesn't work on a farm or else he'd know the difference between apples and oranges...
     
  6. Exterous

    Exterous Lifer

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    Actually I did have a bit of a hard time finding the information. No news site had it (shocking) so I had to go to NCES directly.

    Can you link proof that only 11% can read? Here - I will save you the trouble. You won't be able to find any factual data to back up your retarded statement. Saying 11% can read is an idiotic skewing of the truth as no schools surveyed by the NCES had only 11% of 8th graders who could read. Not. A. Single. One. Pro Tip: The Basic attainment level includes literacy.

    I should also point out that I never said it validated the money we spend on public education so I can't fathom why would would bring that up? Throwing more money at education is clearly not the answer as it has a very very poor track record

    Of course not. It saddens me that such a thing happened and, obviously does not help their cause
     
  7. monovillage

    monovillage Diamond Member

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    At least it was better than the 4% of Detroit kids that tested proficient at math. 4%! Great job union teacher parasites, you all deserve a raise!
     
  8. IGBT

    IGBT Lifer

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    this is what your Dept.Of Education has brought you. Think about this when your income is confiscated under the guise of TAX.
     
  9. Exterous

    Exterous Lifer

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    So - is that a 'no' that you cannot find proof backing up your claim? And what makes you think they are getting raises?
     
    #59 Exterous, Dec 12, 2012
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2012
  10. monovillage

    monovillage Diamond Member

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    They don't deserve raises and is that a "no" that you support the union violence in Michigan on Tuesday?
     
  11. Exterous

    Exterous Lifer

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    If they aren't getting raises and they don't deserve ones why did you say 'You deserve a raise?'

    You never asked me before if I supported the violence, only if I enjoyed it. I do not support the violence used in the protest. You still have not responded about your original 11% claim
     
  12. monovillage

    monovillage Diamond Member

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    You posted it, Fresno at 11% and Cleveland at 11% with Milwaukee at 10%
     
  13. Exterous

    Exterous Lifer

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    *sigh* I see you can't seem to comprehend what is going on here so let me help you out. You said:

    This is not true. You are trying to link 11% being proficient as only 11% as being able to read. This is a blatant disregard for the definitions listed on the NCES website for what constitutes proficient and basic levels.

    Perhaps I confused you by using the big word 'literacy'. I will try to make this easier: Basic level can read too. Therefore you have to add the Basic level of attainment to the proficient to get closer to the correct percent. This gives you significantly more than 11% in every single school in this survey. Furthermore - the NCES does not list the literacy ability of those below Basic so it is possible for none\some\all of those to be literate as well

    So - again - do you have any proof that only 11% can read? Or can you just not comprehend this study?
     
    #63 Exterous, Dec 12, 2012
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2012
  14. monovillage

    monovillage Diamond Member

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    Ohh horrors! My mistake. It's Detroit Michigan kids that have a 7% proficiency or better reading ability. Some of the others can read, slowly, if the words aren't com......pli..cated.
    Teachers should be proud of failing.
     
  15. TechBoyJK

    TechBoyJK Lifer

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    fixed that for ya
     
  16. TechBoyJK

    TechBoyJK Lifer

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    It's not the teachers. It's the unions. Until people realize that they turned from a savior to the worker to a cancer on the economy, nobody will understand the difference.

    My step-mom is a teacher, and I'll still sit here and say '*** unions'.
     
  17. TechBoyJK

    TechBoyJK Lifer

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    Becoming a teacher is easy.

    Becoming a doctor is not.

    This is why the pay is different.

    Pretty simple.
     
  18. TechBoyJK

    TechBoyJK Lifer

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    Can you imagine if teachers had to get malpractice insurance for failing to teach kids?
     
  19. TheVrolok

    TheVrolok Lifer

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    That about sums up my point. :p
     
  20. IGBT

    IGBT Lifer

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    liberal command and controllers know what's good for everybody including your kids.
     
  21. GamingDaemon

    GamingDaemon Senior member

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    So forgetting about who can read or not for the moment, what is your point exactly? I may have missed it before. So is it that according to a National Center for Education Statistics assessment 11% or 10% or 13% or some small number of students are passing? I may have gotten this wrong, so help me out, I am coming to the party late, but wouldn't that mean the majority of the students 89%, 90% or 87% are not passing a test provided by NCES? If the teachers are doing that poorly, find the problem and fix it.

    The problem with my last statement "find the problem and fix it" is that that is a corporate, private sector approach. We in the private sector have no time for hand-holding and what-nots. We have to keep innovating and growing, or we'll be crushed, destroyed and unemployed.

    The teacher's unions seem at odds with this, since their is no incentive for teachers to do well if they can't be fired. And the Dept. of Ed. can hardly be expected to handle issues on a school-by-school basis. That's why teacher's unions and the Dept. of Ed. must go. Let the local communities pay their tax dollars directly to their own schools. Let them have control over the hiring and firing of superintendents, principals and teachers in their own communities, since it is the parents that they are working for. The money should not go all the way up to the federal government, only to trickle back down once everyone along the way has taken their big slice of the pie.

    This is not a new idea. It just needs support. As a parent, I would love to see my tax dollars used locally, and have the ability to influence who is hired and fired to teach my child.

    Need to go back to work... good thread!
     
  22. Exterous

    Exterous Lifer

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    And it only took you ~5 times with simplified examples\words to get it right! Sadly I can tell you didn't bother to delve into the data more. The Basic levels of reading competency in Detroit are much more in line with the national average (Despite drastically lower than average attendance levels) so any condescending words you have for DPS in regards to the % of Basic attainment you have for a good part of the country - including non-unionized schools

    Yes - you are missing something. Something important and already pointed out. Proficient isn't the first 'passing' level. Basic is.

    I should also note that DPS has a serious issue with attendance. It would consistently fall below 75% costing the district millions in state aid. The first weeks of new semesters were in the 50% attendance range. Are the teachers to be held accountable for budget problems when parents don't make their kids show up? How do you grade teacher effectiveness if the students aren't there?

    (National attendance average is around 96%

    *Sigh* In Michigan you can be fired for poor teacher performance. Does no one do research anymore before forming opinions?

    http://www.miparentsforschools.org/node/144

    Most school boards (voted officials) have considerable influence over hiring and policy already. Ideally the three groups should work in concert for the people they are supposed to work for - the kids. Sadly that does not always happen. If one side - any side - becomes out balanced bad things can happen. There are countless examples of bad things happening when the administration, teachers or parents get too much power. Taylor schools is rebounding from bad experiences with the parents having too much power

    How do you intent to support school districts like DPS which would be financially destitute if it had to rely on only their own tax base? I am not sure the State of Michigan could handle all the financially destitute districts on its own

    A lot of ignorance in terms of how Michigan's education system works in this thread
     
  23. Darwin333

    Darwin333 Lifer

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    I understand what you are attempting to debate with Mono but still, 11% provenience in reading for their grade level is a complete and utter failure. I would honestly expect numbers like that to come from a study of "how smart are kids if they don't go to school at all and play Xbox all day". I do understand the numbers are probably skewed a bit by kids that register but don't go to school, kids that plain don't give a ***, etc.... However, when the normal 8th grade class has a reading proficiency level of what I would expect from the kids wearing red helmets and riding the short bus to school in "special" classes.
     
  24. Darwin333

    Darwin333 Lifer

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    The sad part is that most people (and you seem to be in this category) see absolutely no problem with that.....
     
  25. monovillage

    monovillage Diamond Member

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    He gets money for the lousy job that teachers are committing upon children in Michigan, it's as plain and simple as that. They try to shift blame to parents or the administration or Republicans, but union teachers are to blame for the lousy education those children get and they laugh at those poor kids all the way to the bank.