Saw this question on r/atheism today.

[zsdersw]

How do you know they linked volcano eruptions to "God's wrath"?

The eruption of the Santorini volcano is described as the basis for the twelve plagues depicted in Exodus, for example.

 

[randomrogue]

There's a bunch of verses

Ezekiel 22:31 So I will pour out my wrath on them and consume them with my fiery anger, bringing down on their own heads all they have done, declares the Sovereign LORD."

 

[OCNewbie]

I wonder if anything is off limits in regards to rationalizing apparent flaws in the Bible.

 

[soulcougher73]

How do you know they linked volcano eruptions to "God's wrath"?

Critical thinking?

 

[soulcougher73]

There's a bunch of verses

Ezekiel 22:31 So I will pour out my wrath on them and consume them with my fiery anger, bringing down on their own heads all they have done, declares the Sovereign LORD."

I for one want to worship a God who gives me free will but brings down fiery anger upon me for using my free will.

 

[Charles Kozierok]

Human beings pretty much in a nutshell.

Most of them, because most of them are religious.

 

[Moonbeam]

Really?




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mithraic_mysteries


In addition, no monuments for this cult can be dated earlier than A.D. 90-100.
http://www.tertullian.org/rpearse/mithras/display.php?page=earliest_cult_locations


Wow. This mystery religion appears to have formed well after Jesus died. Yet your "common sense" somehow thinks Christianity is based on Mithraism? /facepalm

Furthermore: Ulansey, David. "The Cosmic Mysteries of Mithras". Retrieved 2011-03-30. "Here in the end we may sense a profound kinship between Mithraism and Christianity ... Just as Mithras is revealed as a being from beyond the universe capable of altering the cosmic spheres, so ... we find Jesus linked with a rupture of the heavens ... Perhaps, then, the figures of Jesus and Mithras are to some extent both manifestations of a single deep longing in the human spirit for a sense of contact with the ultimate mystery."

Mithraism was a mystery religion or school based on the worship of the god Mithras. Many underground temples were built in the Roman Empire from about the 1st century BC to the 5th century AD. Understanding Mithraism has been made difficult by the near-total lack of written descriptions or scripture; the teachings must be reconstructed from iconography found in mithraea (a mithraeum was a cave or underground meeting place that often contained bas reliefs of Mithras, the zodiac and associated symbols). Until the 1970s most scholars followed Franz Cumont in identifying Mithras with the Persian god Mithra. Cumont's thesis was re-examined in 1971, and Mithras is now believed to be a syncretic deity only slightly influenced by Persian religion.

Mithraism is recognized as having pronounced astrological elements, but the details are debated. One scholar of Mithraism, David Ulansey, has interpreted Mithras (Mithras Sol Invictus – the unconquerable sun) as a second sun or star that is responsible for precession. He suggests the cult may have been inspired by Hipparchus' discovery of precession. Part of his analysis is based on the tauroctony, an image of Mithras sacrificing a bull, found in most of the temples. According to Ulansey, the tauroctony is a star chart. Mithras is a second sun or hyper-cosmic sun and/or the constellation Perseus, and the bull is Taurus, a constellation of the zodiac. In an earlier astrological age, the vernal equinox had taken place when the Sun was in Taurus. The tauroctony, by this reasoning, commemorated Mithras-Perseus ending the "Age of Taurus" (about 2000 BC based on the Vernal Equinox – or about 11,500 BC based on the Autumnal Equinox).

The religion seems to be connected to the discovery of the procession of the equinoxes by Hipparcus as in this quote form Wiki:

'The iconography also contains two torch bearing boys (Cautes and Cautopates) on each side of the zodiac. Ulansey, and Walter Cruttenden in his book Lost Star of Myth and Time, interpret these to mean ages of growth and decay, or enlightenment and darkness; primal elements of the cosmic progression. Thus Mithraism is thought to have something to do with the changing ages within the precession cycle or Great Year (Plato's term for one complete precession of the equinox)."

 

[jackstar7]

How do you know they linked volcano eruptions to "God's wrath"?

He does it all the time: http://christwire.org/2010/04/god-stikes-iceland-with-fiery-volcanic-wrath/

 

[Moonbeam]

Once again, intellectual dishonesty. I even provided the fucking link for you to click. Yet somehow you managed to select a quote from when it was big in Rome. I'm sorry that I was off by 200 years. It was apparently popular until 400ad and not 200ad.

Mithra was a God in the Persian Empire before the Roman Empire.

What is your contention that Mithra was anything like Jesus? I don't give a shit one way or the other but I don't see it other than as described in my previous post.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

Most of them, because most of them are religious.

You aren't built this way? Then I bow to you in great reverence.

 

[Charles Kozierok]

You aren't built this way?

Not generally, no. And I strive to combat any tendency I may have to slipping into believing only what I want to believe.

I'm open to changing my views and have on many things over my lifetime. And I strongly defer to evidence and reason, not unsupported claims.

 

[soulcougher73]

Not generally, no. And I strive to combat any tendency I may have to slipping into believing only what I want to believe.

I'm open to changing my views and have on many things over my lifetime. And I strongly defer to evidence and reason, not unsupported claims.

This is how i am as well. Always open to change.

 

[randomrogue]

I change as new information is presented to me.

This is why Politics and Religion are such hotly contested topics. People struggle to change and even in the face of new evidence they still stick to their chosen dogma.

If this discussion was rational then there would be the concession of a point from the religious in this thread. There is none. I say that Jesus might have existed. The religious say he absolutely did and any claim to the opposite is impossible. Jesus existed because you believe he existed. Not because he existed.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

Try Horus if Mithra doesnt work for you. Youll see the same similarities.

People took a cookie cutter religious outline and try to gain power through it onto illiterate/dumb/peasant masses. And it worked. As this thread is evidence

Here's an interesting article for those who believe that Christianity was derived from pagan myths.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_Christ_in_comparative_mythology

While some scholars continue to support these analogies, others contend that the perceived similarities are often without historical basis, that first century monotheistic Galilean Jews would not have been open to pagan myths, and that the analogies are usually based on parallelomania, exaggerating the importance of trifling resemblances.

It looks like the argument for Horus is pretty weak as well.

Early in the 20th century, Gerald Massey argued that there are similarities between the Egyptian god Horus and Jesus.[26] Following those ideas, in the 1940s Alvin Boyd Kuhn suggested that not only Christianity, but Judaism was based on Egyptian concepts, and more recently Tom Harpur (who believes Jesus existed, but his lifestory is fiction) has expressed similar views.[27][28] Harpur acknowledges Massey and Kuhn as his intellectual predecessors and theologian Stanley E. Porter states that most of Harpur's work is directly based on quoting Massey and Kuhn.[27][28]

Porter has pointed out that Massey and Kuhn's analogies include a number of errors, e.g. Massey stated that December 25 as the date of birth of Jesus was selected based on the birth of Horus, but the New Testament does not include any reference to the date or season of the birth of Jesus.[29][30][31] The earliest known source recognizing the 25th of December as the date of birth of Jesus is by Hippolytus of Rome, written around the beginning of the 3rd century, based on the assumption that the conception of Jesus took place at the Spring equinox. Hippolytus placed the equinox on March 25 and then added 9 months to get December 25, thus establishing the date for festivals.[32] The Roman Chronography of 354 then included an early reference to the celebration of a Nativity feast in December, as of the fourth century.[33]

Porter states that Massey's serious historical errors often render his works nonsensical, e.g. Massey states that the biblical references to Herod the Great were based on the myth of "Herrut" the evil hydra serpent, while the existence of Herod the Great can be well established without reliance on Christian sources.[29]

Harpur has noted that Kuhn had expected his ideas to have a Darwin-like impact on religious studies, but that has not happened and Kuhn's concepts are generally ignored or rejected.[27] Porter criticizes Kuhn's work based on various errors such as confusing the dates of the composition of the Mishnah and the Babylonian Talmud when drawing conclusions.[34] Porter also criticizes Harpur's views (which are often based on Kuhn) for their lack of rigor and consistency.

 

[alzan]

I guess you didn't read Doc Savage's link -- those who disagree are so a minority that they have to concoct "myth theories".

LOL.

Point taken. However I was talking about you; as you have been the main "defender of the faith" in this and other threads, not DSF. I'm not discounting DSF's contributions to this thread however.

LOL

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

Not generally, no. And I strive to combat any tendency I may have to slipping into believing only what I want to believe.

I'm open to changing my views and have on many things over my lifetime. And I strongly defer to evidence and reason, not unsupported claims.

I also aspire to the same lofty goal. However, if I've made an unsupported claim I would greatly appreciate you pointing out my error.

 

[randomrogue]

Ok since you're taking this very personally it might be worth reminding you that many religions have done this. They have borrowed heavily from previous religions. Christianity is not alone in this.

Read creation myths. Something that doesn't personally bother you so much so that you can read it objectively. Try the Popul Vuh. Notice how these ancient civilizations all have similar creation myths and they're really based on their agrarian cultures.

Virgin birth and resurrection were symbols of the seasons and crops. Holidays coincided with the solstices and the equinoxes. Seasons. Agrarian. It's not so much December 25th. It's the winter solstice. Christianity simply wanted to overwrite a Pagan holiday.

Clearly your mind can't grasp the idea of Christianity not being an original religion.

 

[Charles Kozierok]

I also aspire to the same lofty goal. However, if I've made an unsupported claim I would greatly appreciate you pointing out my error.

My comment was not meant to imply anything about you. If anything, you implied that what I said was something unachievable or impractical, suggesting you yourself thought you believed certain things just because you wanted to.

 

[alzan]

I for one want to worship a God who gives me free will but brings down fiery anger upon me for using my free will.

The ultimate Catch-22.

Clearly your mind can't grasp the idea of Christianity not being an original religion.

Can't grasp or won't grasp? Tough call.

 

[Moonbeam]

OK, what the hell is wrong with my fellow atheists. Have you no sense of shame? Who loves you so much He would send his only Son to die to save you from your sins? What the fuck is the matter with you, attacking the faith of people who believe this. Are you jealous, do you have the kind of self hate that requires you shit on folk who believe they have been forgiven? Oh, I know, most of them don't get the essence of their religion, but how the hell are they ever going to with downers like you throwing dung. Why try to steal the faith of folk who believe they should treat you well. Do you think that if you argue long enough you too can believe? Go grab all the gusto you can because when we're dead we're dead, but these folk take a longer view because they're going to heaven. He who has a caravan of riches on its way to him, by his faith in that dream causes it to arrive. The truth is nothing but a state of mind and there is no feeling quite like the feeling that you have been saved. Believe it, because for the faithful it is true.

 

[Moonbeam]

Ok since you're taking this very personally it might be worth reminding you that many religions have done this. They have borrowed heavily from previous religions. Christianity is not alone in this.

Read creation myths. Something that doesn't personally bother you so much so that you can read it objectively. Try the Popul Vuh. Notice how these ancient civilizations all have similar creation myths and they're really based on their agrarian cultures.

Virgin birth and resurrection were symbols of the seasons and crops. Holidays coincided with the solstices and the equinoxes. Seasons. Agrarian. It's not so much December 25th. It's the winter solstice. Christianity simply wanted to overwrite a Pagan holiday.

Clearly your mind can't grasp the idea of Christianity not being an original religion.

Clearly yours can't grasp the fact it's irrelevant, that there is one truth and a million fingers pointing at it, none of which is the truth being pointed to.

 

[FM2n]

This conversation will bode well with the Philosophy 100 class I'm taking.

 

[Darwin333]

Many of us came to our conclusions becasue we've studied other religions/gods, but we simply do not have enough time to study up on the tens of thousands different gods/religions out there to come to a conclusion.

While that may be true for you the vast majority of religious people are the same religion as their parents. Why, because they were taught, programmed even, to believe in said religion from a very young age.

 

[randomrogue]

Clearly yours can't grasp the fact it's irrelevant, that there is one truth and a million fingers pointing at it, none of which is the truth being pointed to.

The truth is that we are all bonded by the brotherly love that is self hate.

 

[Charles Kozierok]

Clearly yours can't grasp the fact it's irrelevant, that there is one truth and a million fingers pointing at it, none of which is the truth being pointed to.

Why do you constantly write this sort of gibberish? It means absolutely nothing.