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Saving the Republic.

techs

Lifer
Sep 26, 2000
28,559
4
0
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co...cle/2005/12/11/AR2005121101098_pf.html
Chinks in the Republican Armor
By Fred Hiatt
Monday, December 12, 2005; A25

Not so long ago the talk was all about the self-perpetuating machine the Republicans were constructing in Washington.

The image was of links in a chain of power that the Democrats could never break. The GOP, having captured both houses of Congress and the White House, could press lobbyists to hire only Republicans and give money only to Republicans. The money would guarantee dominance in state legislatures. The legislatures would redraw congressional districts so that Democrats could never win. And if anyone objected, too bad; Republican-appointed judges could be counted on to slap down any complainers.

All in all, a perfect loop. Even when House Majority Leader Tom DeLay was indicted in September, he was depicted as a no-longer-essential cog in the apparatus he had helped design and build. People could come and go, the chain would remain.

The mood in Washington today is different. It's been remembered that the chain holds only as long as most people vote next year the way they voted last year.

Today it is conceivable, though by no means assured, that Democrats' vote total in 2006 could grow, and Republicans' shrink, by enough to shift control of the House or Senate. Even a whiff of such uncertainty may prompt donors to hedge their bets.

It may seem obvious, but the distinction between what the Republicans have created and a government truly impervious to public sentiment is worth noting. After all, there are regimes -- in Russia, for example -- that so pervert the forms of democracy that they insulate themselves from changes in public sentiment, unless those are drastic or somehow expressed outside the law. That's not where we are. A healthy dose of cynicism about the goings-on here is appropriate; an overdose of cynicism is not.

This doesn't mean the analysis of Republican ambitions was wrong. Much of it was right, and much of what the Republicans have done -- their Texas redistricting, for example -- merits all the contempt that it has engendered, and more.

Norman J. Ornstein, an expert on Congress at the American Enterprise Institute, says that a shift in public sentiment comparable to the one that swept Republicans into the House majority in 1994, with a gain of more than 50 seats, would produce a shift of only 20 or so seats for Democrats today. That would be enough to unhorse the Republicans, but barely. And that's in large part because Republicans have given themselves larger cushions in nominally competitive districts, he says. So the House, which was designed to be most responsive to public opinion, may now be less responsive than the Senate.

"There's no such thing as a perfect machine," he said. "But they have built in a lot of advantages, and Texas may have made the difference."

But the imperfections are increasingly visible. Some are internal: the arrogance, greed and complacency that swell with time in office, and the disparate interests of supporters that become harder to paper over. Drug companies, seniors' lobbies and chambers of commerce may all support you, but they also may have different ideas of the proper design and cost of a Medicare drug benefit. The result may make no one happy.

There are external stresses, too. Unlike in Russia, it turns out that prosecutors and judges can't be controlled, no matter who appoints them: just ask DeLay, Jack Abramoff or Scooter Libby. Unlike in Russia, neither can the press. The congressional Republicans' cringing abdication of their branch's traditional oversight role has helped diminish attention to scandal and malfeasance, but it can't erase bad news altogether.

And unlike in many pseudo-democracies, the mechanics of elections, including, not least, the counting, can't be controlled by those in power -- which means that they do need to worry about what voters think.

None of this guarantees that the Democrats will win next year. But it does mean their fate isn't entirely out of their hands; much will depend on them -- on the policies they develop, the candidates they recruit. The machine isn't indestructible.

Wow. This guy understands what I and many others have been saying. There has been an attempt to hijack the democratic process in America.
 

Todd33

Diamond Member
Oct 16, 2003
7,842
2
81
Take money out of politics completely and we would have a democracy. Right now it's all about groups buying power and politicians selling support. No lobbyist, no donations, no 527s, nothing. Federally funded elections. Stop this BS about freedom of speech, money corrupts the process, it is not speech.
 

dmcanally

Member
Oct 25, 2005
145
0
0
This country is not a democracy, when will this become common knowledge? Ohh yea, public schools don?t teach important stuff anymore. And no. Im not a conservative nor a liberal.

While all of you argue about partisan nonsense I will be sitting on my porch with my shotgun, smoking a fat cigar and waiting for the UN to come collect all of my contraband.

I don?t know about you but I would rather an elected official have power rather than millions of Mexican immigrants (legal or not) who could care less about learning the English language.
 

Todd33

Diamond Member
Oct 16, 2003
7,842
2
81
Originally posted by: dmcanally
This country is not a democracy, when will this become common knowledge? Ohh yea, public schools don?t teach important stuff anymore. And no. Im not a conservative nor a liberal.

While all of you argue about partisan nonsense I will be sitting on my porch with my shotgun, smoking a fat cigar and waiting for the UN to come collect all of my contraband.

I don?t know about you but I would rather an elected official have power rather than millions of Mexican immigrants (legal or not) who could care less about learning the English language.

WTF are you from and when are you going back? Your reply had little to do with the OT, but nice insane sounding rant.
 

dmcanally

Member
Oct 25, 2005
145
0
0
Originally posted by: Todd33
WTF are you from and when are you going back? Your reply had little to do with the OT, but nice insane sounding rant.

To be honest I didn't read the original post. I read yours. You said if we took the money out of politics we would have a democracy. I gave some evidence as to why I think democracy is a bad idea on such a large scale.

 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,785
6,345
126
Originally posted by: dmcanally
Originally posted by: sandorski
The US is a Democratically elected Republic, not just a Republic.
That doesn't make it a democracy.

Sure it does. Not a Pure Democracy, but it isn't a Pure Republic either. It's both.
 

Todd33

Diamond Member
Oct 16, 2003
7,842
2
81
We vote for our representatives. The represent us. What is the confusion dmcanally?

I was merely commenting on how money buys our representative via donations and lobbying. If there was no money in politics they would survive purely on doing the will of the voters, beholden to no interest groups. Money is power and unfortunately Republicans outspend Democrats on almost all fronts. Parties and politicians should get in power based on their stances and politics, not their fund raising ability or party bank account.
 

CycloWizard

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
12,348
1
81
Originally posted by: Todd33
Take money out of politics completely and we would have a democracy. Right now it's all about groups buying power and politicians selling support. No lobbyist, no donations, no 527s, nothing. Federally funded elections. Stop this BS about freedom of speech, money corrupts the process, it is not speech.
I agree that this would be the ideal situation. However, how would any but the super-rich rise to power? How could the little man get the word out about his great ideas?
 

dmcanally

Member
Oct 25, 2005
145
0
0
Originally posted by: Todd33
We vote for our representatives. The represent us. What is the confusion dmcanally?

I was merely commenting on how money buys our representative via donations and lobbying. If there was no money in politics they would survive purely on doing the will of the voters, beholden to no interest groups. Money is power and unfortunately Republicans outspend Democrats on almost all fronts. Parties and politicians should get in power based on their stances and politics, not their fund raising ability or party bank account.

re·pub·lic ( P ) Pronunciation Key (r-pblk)
n.

1:
a. A political order whose head of state is not a monarch and in modern times is usually a president.
b. A nation that has such a political order.

2:
a. A political order in which the supreme power lies in a body of citizens who are entitled to vote for officers and representatives responsible to them.
b. A nation that has such a political order.



de·moc·ra·cy ( P ) Pronunciation Key (d-mkr-s)
n. pl. de·moc·ra·cies
1. Government by the people, exercised either directly or through elected representatives.
2. A political or social unit that has such a government.
3. The common people, considered as the primary source of political power.
Majority rule.

So yes, we do fit somewhat into a democracy. But the common people are not the primary source of political power. As the people we have the power to overthrow such goverment, but any free soul has that power. Sorry but that doesn't make this country a democracy.
 

dmcanally

Member
Oct 25, 2005
145
0
0
Originally posted by: sandorski
It makes it Both.

On a local scale we elect officials who we hope will represent us as we see fit. But after that the people have no power. So no, that doesn't make it both. It makes it a republic.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,785
6,345
126
Originally posted by: dmcanally
Originally posted by: sandorski
It makes it Both.

On a local scale we elect officials who we hope will represent us as we see fit. But after that the people have no power. So no, that doesn't make it both. It makes it a republic.

Do those Representatives choose the President?
 

dmcanally

Member
Oct 25, 2005
145
0
0
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: dmcanally
Originally posted by: sandorski
It makes it Both.

On a local scale we elect officials who we hope will represent us as we see fit. But after that the people have no power. So no, that doesn't make it both. It makes it a republic.

Do those Representatives choose the President?

I would imagine so because it certainly isn't you. Your vote in 2008 will have nothing to do with who becomes president. Hence the common vote not having power. Localy you elect a mayor but that doesn't make this country a democracy or democratic republic. I votre for someone who I think will do the right thing. This is the same reason that I don't vote for a president. The physical vote simply doesn't matter.
 

Todd33

Diamond Member
Oct 16, 2003
7,842
2
81
dmcanally is clearly contradicting himself in every other post, so lets just agree to move on.

However, how would any but the super-rich rise to power? How could the little man get the word out about his great ideas?

If money is removed, how does being rich help? People get name recognition by stump speeches, op-eds, local experience, write books, etc. There are plenty of great past and present politicians who wrose up from obscurity based on there ability to lead, not buy elections. Who heard of Obama a few years ago?
 

dmcanally

Member
Oct 25, 2005
145
0
0
Originally posted by: Todd33
dmcanally is clearly contradicting himself in every other post, so lets just agree to move on.

However, how would any but the super-rich rise to power? How could the little man get the word out about his great ideas?

If money is removed, how does being rich help? People get name recognition by stump speeches, op-eds, local experience, write books, etc. There are plenty of great past and present politicians who wrose up from obscurity based on there ability to lead, not buy elections. Who heard of Obama a few years ago?

IMO todd33 is a retard.

Edit - Todd33, scroll back up and read the definition of "republic". 2.a to be more precise. Infact Ill just copy paste for you so you don't have to scroll.

2:
a. A political order in which the supreme power lies in a body of citizens who are entitled to vote for officers and representatives responsible to them.

That is refering to elected officials.
 

Darkhawk28

Diamond Member
Dec 22, 2000
6,759
0
0
Originally posted by: dmcanally
Originally posted by: Todd33
dmcanally is clearly contradicting himself in every other post, so lets just agree to move on.

However, how would any but the super-rich rise to power? How could the little man get the word out about his great ideas?

If money is removed, how does being rich help? People get name recognition by stump speeches, op-eds, local experience, write books, etc. There are plenty of great past and present politicians who wrose up from obscurity based on there ability to lead, not buy elections. Who heard of Obama a few years ago?

IMO todd33 is a retard.

Mods. Cleanup on aisle five!

 

IronWing

No Lifer
Jul 20, 2001
72,899
34,001
136
Originally posted by: dmcanally
Originally posted by: Todd33
We vote for our representatives. The represent us. What is the confusion dmcanally?

I was merely commenting on how money buys our representative via donations and lobbying. If there was no money in politics they would survive purely on doing the will of the voters, beholden to no interest groups. Money is power and unfortunately Republicans outspend Democrats on almost all fronts. Parties and politicians should get in power based on their stances and politics, not their fund raising ability or party bank account.

re·pub·lic ( P ) Pronunciation Key (r-pblk)
n.

1:
a. A political order whose head of state is not a monarch and in modern times is usually a president.
b. A nation that has such a political order.

2:
a. A political order in which the supreme power lies in a body of citizens who are entitled to vote for officers and representatives responsible to them.
b. A nation that has such a political order.



de·moc·ra·cy ( P ) Pronunciation Key (d-mkr-s)
n. pl. de·moc·ra·cies
1. Government by the people, exercised either directly or through elected representatives.
2. A political or social unit that has such a government.
3. The common people, considered as the primary source of political power.
Majority rule.

So yes, we do fit somewhat into a democracy. But the common people are not the primary source of political power. As the people we have the power to overthrow such goverment, but any free soul has that power. Sorry but that doesn't make this country a democracy.

In other words you really had nothing to contribute to the thread. You saw the word "democracy", went red in the face, and started sputtering, attempting (sucessfully for the most part) to change the subject of the thread.

Meanwhile, back to discussing what contemptible sleazebags the Repbulican are...
 

CycloWizard

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
12,348
1
81
Originally posted by: Todd33
If money is removed, how does being rich help? People get name recognition by stump speeches, op-eds, local experience, write books, etc. There are plenty of great past and present politicians who wrose up from obscurity based on there ability to lead, not buy elections. Who heard of Obama a few years ago?
Because if I'm independently wealthy, I don't have to go door-to-door. I can buy air-time on TV/radio, billboards, or what have you. Or are you also suggesting that this form of campaigning be banned? If so, the rich guy still wins, because he can afford to fly around the country to build support door-to-door. Like I said, I agree with your stance in theory, but I'm not sure that it would work in practice.
 

dmcanally

Member
Oct 25, 2005
145
0
0
Originally posted by: ironwing


In other words you really had nothing to contribute to the thread. You saw the word "democracy", went red in the face, and started sputtering, attempting (sucessfully for the most part) to change the subject of the thread.

Meanwhile, back to discussing what contemptible sleazebags the Repbulican are...

The partisan idiocy of this still seems to amaze me.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,785
6,345
126
Originally posted by: dmcanally
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: dmcanally
Originally posted by: sandorski
It makes it Both.

On a local scale we elect officials who we hope will represent us as we see fit. But after that the people have no power. So no, that doesn't make it both. It makes it a republic.

Do those Representatives choose the President?

I would imagine so because it certainly isn't you. Your vote in 2008 will have nothing to do with who becomes president. Hence the common vote not having power. Localy you elect a mayor but that doesn't make this country a democracy or democratic republic. I votre for someone who I think will do the right thing. This is the same reason that I don't vote for a president. The physical vote simply doesn't matter.

So when you go to Vote there is no option for you to select who you want as President?
 

dmcanally

Member
Oct 25, 2005
145
0
0
Originally posted by: sandorski
So when you go to Vote there is no option for you to select who you want as President?

So you are honestly telling me that you think the president is elected by majority vote by the people? I don't vote for president because it doesn't matter.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,785
6,345
126
Originally posted by: dmcanally
Originally posted by: sandorski
So when you go to Vote there is no option for you to select who you want as President?

So you are honestly telling me that you think the president is elected by majority vote by the people? I don't vote for president because it doesn't matter.

I'm telling you that you and every other Voter chooses the President directly. Unlike many other Democracies(including my own, Canada) you don't Elect a Representative who in turn chooses your President. You choose the President. 1 Person 1 Vote is a Democratic Institution, not a Republican one(not to be confused with the Political Parties of the same names). The whole idea of Democratic reform exists because there exists a Democratic institution within the US in the first place and is not some attempt to alter the Government type from Republic to Democratic. IOW, your whole arguement is based on a false premise, that is that the US is a Republic form and not a Democratic form and as such there is no Democracy to speak of. There is, but you are too caught up on a word to see it.