Safe houses for suspects in Bundy ranch standoff

[BonzaiDuck]

The problem with the nutters who think tyranny is knocking at the door, is that they don't really see how things work. And don't lecture me about my age: I was 16 when they blew JFK away.

There are statistics which are small samples. They are indicative of things people have ignored for years, but some small samples cannot be "conclusive" because of the size or number of observations.

Eisenhower warned of the Military Industrial Complex in January, 1961. Let me guess why: He was born in Texas, raised in Kansas, West Point and the world in general, while his wife was a San Antonio girl. No doubt -- the movers and shakers in Big Defense/Aerospace and Big Oil were ringing her bell, and Ike saw the writing on the wall. Ike was the one who said defense spending should grow by a small, fixed percent of GNP, or we wouldn't be able to pay for roads, schools and other things. Ike was the last great Republican President.

So -- leave Ike out of the sample. Start at 1960. Count two things: the number of Presidential terms, and the total of term years -- according to where the political careers started.

Since 1960, we've had something like 55% and 60+% of terms and term years from political careers in two states. Those two states had 19% of the total population and (therefore) congressional districts in 1960, and they pretty much were 19% by middle of last decade.

That doesn't make sense, or otherwise -- all our talent comes from two states!! What do those states have in common? During that period and past the end of the Cold War, they had three things: Big Oil, Defense Aerospace, and the largest number of paved highway miles among a ranking of the other 50 states.

What about all our wars after Korea? There were rumors of oil and other mineral deposits in the South China Sea, and now Vietnam has its own oil assets. Cuba is expected to become filthy rich during the next century -- for the same reason. We overthrew the Mossadegh regime in Iran during the early 50's, because the Brits didn't want to pay royalties on the oil extraction, and so they spun the old socialist explanation. That's one reason they still hate us.

Then there was April Glespie, Ambassador to Iraq under Bush the Smarter: she misspoke, suggesting that Saddam might as well invade Kuwait because it had "traditionally been part of Iraq." [The smell of oil is getting stronger.] Then, there was the terrorist threat in Afghanistan (as well as the Trillion dollars in estimated mineral wealth there.) And then -- the third largest oil reserve in the world -- the spigot turned to a trickle because of sanctions against Saddam.

I used to know a GS-9 careerist at CIA, who told me about meetings with "oil people" who suggested she could have a six-digit salary if she switched jobs. So there's a revolving door. There is also the Center for International and Strategic Studies, The Council on National Policy, the American Petroleum Institute.

No -- it's not the "gov'mint" callin' the shots. It's the industries and their momentum that "run the gov'mint." That's the reason for the propaganda campaign against the President from Illinois. The 2-percenters made a gross Waterloo-class mistake, and they're worried the rest of us will see it.

The Cornpones -- they think it's all about Ruby Ridge, Waco-Wacko, and "our precious bodily fluids." Who's the ostrich with his head in the tar-sands? Who doesn't see how things have worked for far too long?

What . . a crock . . . of Shee . . . [].

 

[Fanatical Meat]

Did that drone strike that made everyone scatter to the country side ever happen?
Did the Feds gun down all the women & children they lined up to protect the ranch?
Did anyone aiming guns at Federal officers get shot?
Did any of the "militia" road blocks/road inspections find anything?

the end.

 

[Victorian Gray]

When Bush jr let the timber companies clear cut vast tracks of virgin timber on public lands, who was freeloading then?

It is ok when a comapny freeloads off the public, right? But when a citizen does it, it is a crime?

Remember Waco?

The people are sick and tired of the government strong arming citizens.

As for the opening post, that is what jury nullification is for. If any of those people are brought to trial, just find them not guilty. Problem solved.

Bundy is a thief and he has been stealing from *you*. And you are dumb enough not to care.

 

[Victorian Gray]

Yall can spin it whatever way all want.

For decades the federal government has been acting like a terrorist organization.

Whether it was shooting an unarmed woman holding a child at Ruby Ridge, or the irs auditing innocent people for no reason, the government has terrorized the people for long enough.

None of which has anything at all to do with Bundy. He is a thief, pure and simple and he's been stealing from you and every other American citizen for decades.

 

[Victorian Gray]

What Bundy did was a victimless crime.

How were you hurt by his grazing cattle? Did you suffer any harm?

Then why are you defending the government?

Why are you defending a thief?

 

[Victorian Gray]

these people are beyond reasoning with or even seeing past the end of their noses they are so ignorant...

it's not worth our time to even try to show them reasons why, let them live about 10 more years, deal with some government stuff, actually write a check to an appraisal district, or pay some taxes (instead of collecting a refund).... when they reach that age, they might start to get it.

There is nothing to 'get'. Bundy is a thief. Period.

 

[irishScott]

I'm trying to find out if anyone supporting the Bundy ranch in the standoff in Nevada plan to resist arrest. That would be if the authorities decide to prosecute them for pointing weapons at U.S. agents.

I'm all in favor of any safe house at the ranch or anywhere else in the U.S. to protect any of them from arrest by the feds or local police for the accusations of pointing weapons or a similar charge. I realize some of you can say the feds can swoop in somewhere in another state outside Nevada where some of Bundy's supporters may have returned home. Because it would be easier to make an arrest away from the still highly armed Bundy ranch.

I can't really find in net searches if any safe houses are going to be set up outside Nevada. Or in Nevada for that matter but outside the Bundy ranch. So just wondering if any of you law enforcement types have heard anything from your sources if any of these kinds of safe houses will be arranged in other states. The Bundy ranch according to some web research is fairly well staffed and equipped to hold off authorities short of another Waco style takeover.

You could have this post put in the Bundy ranch thread if you want but I think the impending prosecutions may deserve their own thread.

Wow. You do understand that using language straight out of spy movies on an internet forum from your basement doesn't make you some rebel superhero in his batcave, right? In fact even if someone here did run or know about a safe house (unlikely, this is a tech forum), I'd hope they wouldn't be stupid enough to tell a stranger on a public internet forum about it. Would be a good way to get arrested.

Posts like these are the main reason I don't see the ultra radical James Yeager tree-of-liberty-refreshed-with-blood types as a threat. They're so caught up in their own stupid online fantasy bravado, much of which is public, that they might as well be camping out in front of the white house as they make their little fantasy plots about taking down Obama.

If there's ever a serious armed revolution against the United States government, the current survivalist militia redneck types will be dead or sidelined within the first week as they try to act out their hero fantasies.

 

[Nebor]

Remember Waco?

Do you remember Waco? Local, county, state & federal law enforcement are far better armed, equipped and trained now than they were 20 years ago. Not to mention the alignment of the National Guard, and both active & reserve components of the Army & Marine Corps with law enforcement through DSCA training and agreements.

 

[Fern]

Whatever you're smelling, it's not tyranny. Bundy is a free-loader, but he's had his days in court (due process). He's been through the court system for YEARS AND LOST multiple times! It's not Bundy's land, it's the Federal Government (and the people's land). How is it tyranny when the government finally enforces the legal judgement against Bundy?

I've been through the court system. The problem I have with your line of argument is that trying to fight Uncle Sam in court is either a (1) very rich man's game or (2) a near impossibility.

Bundy falls into the latter. Lawyers are expensive to us, but not Uncle Sam. Uncle Sam has hordes of lawyers.

Bundy had to defend himself in court. Hardly a fair fight.

In court against the US govt? You might as well try to fight a multinational corporation.

Fern

 

[zanejohnson]

I notice you didn't answer Zorba's question...

i didnt waste my time because my family has been in texas for 10's of generations, like many others.

 

[Victorian Gray]

I've been through the court system. The problem I have with your line of argument is that trying to fight Uncle Sam in court is either a (1) very rich man's game or (2) a near impossibility.

Bundy falls into the latter. Lawyers are expensive to us, but not Uncle Sam. Uncle Sam has hordes of lawyers.

Bundy had to defend himself in court. Hardly a fair fight.

In court against the US govt? You might as well try to fight a multinational corporation.

Fern

Yeah, it's really a tough fight to defend yourself in court against *anyone* when the bottom line is that you are guilty as charged. Yep, a tough fight indeed.

btw, still waiting for you to back up your accusation.

 

[zanejohnson]

There is nothing to 'get'. Bundy is a thief. Period.

only by trumped up legislature from a kangaroo court.

 

[Victorian Gray]

only by trumped up legislature from a kangaroo court.

He is a thief. He has been, and still is, stealing from you. You don't care. That's nice.

 

[zanejohnson]

He is a thief. He has been, and still is, stealing from you. You don't care. That's nice.

nope not a bit..

i consider using the resources ($$$) they had to pay the BLM for this terrible bit of theater, much more of a theft, than a man grazing his cows on some land. (which actually improves the quality of the land, cow shit is great fertilizer, cows grazing is great for the land).. i consider much more valuable than the taxes they say he owes.

 

[zanejohnson]

victorian gray: it's like you just get off on oppressing people...you should become a police officer.

do you ever watch South Park?? you're Cartman.

 

[brycejones]

only by trumped up legislature from a kangaroo court.

LOL

 

[Knowing]

Do you remember Waco? Local, county, state & federal law enforcement are far better armed, equipped and trained now than they were 20 years ago.

You mean when the cops after Dorner filled a truck that was the wrong make, model, color, and was occupied by two women who did not look at all like Dorner with holes? Or when they crashed in to and shot at another vehicle that was the wrong make, model and color? You mean the one that ended when cops threw a "burner" in to a cabin which summarily caught fire to which they reacted by being true professionals and saying "Burn that fucking house down" and "Fucking burn this motherfucker."

Yes, they're doing so much better lately.

Not to mention the alignment of the National Guard, and both active & reserve components of the Army & Marine Corps with law enforcement through DSCA training and agreements.

Civilians still don't understand the military, and the military still doesn't understand civilians.

 

[Victorian Gray]

nope not a bit..

i consider using the resources ($$$) they had to pay the BLM for this terrible bit of theater, much more of a theft, than a man grazing his cows on some land. (which actually improves the quality of the land, cow shit is great fertilizer, cows grazing is great for the land).. i consider much more valuable than the taxes they say he owes.

The family entered into an agreement for (really cheap) fees to graze their personal cattle on *public* land. After a few years they expanded to using land that they had no agreements to use and stopped paying their previously agreed upon fees. For close to 20 years they have been stealing from you and every other American citizen. I really don't understand how you can be ok with this.

The man is not a patriot and he's not being oppressed. He's a liar and a thief and eventually I suspect he'll be in jail for breaking the laws of the country he lives in but refuses to acknowledge (while sucking up all the advantages of living that country he doesn't acknowledge).

You want to support an ass like that, feel free.

 

[Victorian Gray]

victorian gray: it's like you just get off on oppressing people...you should become a police officer.

do you ever watch South Park?? you're Cartman.

No dude, I'm Victorian Gray, not some figment of your imagination or a cartoon character from a vastly overrated television show. Call me all the names you want, throw all the character aspersions at me that you want, it doesn't change the facts of this situation.

 

[Texashiker]

Bundy is a thief and he has been stealing from *you*. And you are dumb enough not to care.

Even if Bundy owed the government $1 million, that is what, 3 cents from you? Or whatever $1 for every 350, 360 people, whatever the population of the US is.

If I send you your 3 cents, will you shut up?

on many occasions, me and TexasHiker have been at odds on topics in this forum, but i'm a grown man, and so is he, so we've never let it go past... agreeing to disagree.. but i gotta say one thing about Texashiker. he's an adult, and he's not ignorant, and when you have me and him, coming together on this subject.... (we are from completely different ends of the political spectrum), but we agree on this for sure.

Thank you.

Contrary to the thoughtless and traditional view of things, the American desert isn't some dead, lifeless piece of moonscape of no value. The next time we have an El Nino and plenty of rain in Arizona, you could see it in the Sonoran Desert bloom.

But wildflowers and Gila Monsters notwithstanding, he owed BLM a charge for every head of cattle he allowed to graze on federal land. Since that range is finite, all the other ranchers who paid their share were being shortchanged by a freeloader.

See above, if I send you your 3 cents will you shut up?

You do realize cow manure is a fertilizer right? Seeds are not digested in the cows digestive tract, you do know that right?

Cow eats plant with seeds, the cow will deposit the seeds in a pile of manure.

 

[Jhhnn]

nope not a bit..

i consider using the resources ($$$) they had to pay the BLM for this terrible bit of theater, much more of a theft, than a man grazing his cows on some land. (which actually improves the quality of the land, cow shit is great fertilizer, cows grazing is great for the land).. i consider much more valuable than the taxes they say he owes.

Hogwash. Much of western grazing land has been badly degraded by 150 years of overgrazing. Cattle take more out of the land than they put in, otherwise their carcasses would have no value. The BLM land that Bundy claims as his own is extremely lean, highly unlikely to support more than 1 cow per 40-60 acres in a sustainable fashion.

Shee-it, Sherlock, even Glenn Beck knows that Bundy's militiamen are dangerous nut cases.

 

[BonzaiDuck]

Even if Bundy owed the government $1 million, that is what, 3 cents from you? Or whatever $1 for every 350, 360 people, whatever the population of the US is.

If I send you your 3 cents, will you shut up?

Thank you.

See above, if I send you your 3 cents will you shut up?

You do realize cow manure is a fertilizer right? Seeds are not digested in the cows digestive tract, you do know that right?

Cow eats plant with seeds, the cow will deposit the seeds in a pile of manure.

That's the old Sarah Palin "Plants like CO2" Global Warming Denial argument, which is also hogwash from several standpoints, despite the basic grade-school fact.

And the idea that everyone should be satisfied to receive the "individual share" of Bundy's "settlement" only reflects one thing: Your idea of the "general" good only admits personal self-interest; there's not any concept of a "public" or "collective" good.

So I've got a great idea. Dissolve the Defense Department, distribute some of the money to individuals to buy their own weapons, and everyone can defend themselves. Basically, "Everyone for themselves."

 

[Victorian Gray]

Even if Bundy owed the government $1 million, that is what, 3 cents from you? Or whatever $1 for every 350, 360 people, whatever the population of the US is.

If I send you your 3 cents, will you shut up?

I'm not an American, why would you send me 3 cents?

And why do you support a man who is a liar, a thief, a bully and a racist? And if you believe in him that strongly why don't you head on up to his little ranch and 'protect' him from the tyrannical federal govt.?

 

[MongGrel]

pardon me if i'm mistaken, but your jewish right?

You're about as mistaken as you can be, I was baptized a Lutheran and half German.

:biggrin:

 

[Zorba]

i didnt waste my time because my family has been in texas for 10's of generations, like many others.

Well I was thinking about the typical generation that is about 30 years, so 10 would be 300 years, before the US was even a country.

But maybe you mean generations of your family, and 10s implies more than 1 10, so I'll say at least 20 generations is what you mean by 10s. That would mean the average parent in your family was less than 9 years-old when they gave birth to the next generation, if they owned the land at the start of the Texas revolution. That seems fairly unlikely to me.

But, you completely skipped over the part were I asked if you would be fine with your neighbor illegally grazing cattle on your personal land? I am guessing you wouldn't like it, but since you are scared of the government it is okay for someone to illegally graze on the government's land in your mind.

Would you be okay with BP drilling for oil right the middle of Yosemite Valley or on top of Old Faithful, and refusing to pay for the use of the land?