Safe houses for suspects in Bundy ranch standoff

[IronWing]

The whole situation with bundy just gets kind of ridiculous. I personally believe Bundy should not have dealt with what he had to deal with in that manner.

You're right. Bundy should have been in jail twenty years ago. He's a deadbeat thief.

 

[brycejones]

You know what is "nutters", that the people tolerate government harassment.

Waco, Ruby Ridge, IRS, domestic spying,,,, people are sick and tired of it. The problem is, most people will not do anything about it.

When a group of people take action, they are labeled domestic terrorist.

What should we do to protect people who stand up to the government, nullify the jury and find them not guilty.

When a group of people attempt to protect some duchebag who believes he has a right to use a shared resource for free then yes they are domestic terrorists. There was no government harassment, just a bunch of idiots who for some reason think the law doesn't apply to the them. F that.

 

[BonzaiDuck]

You know what is "nutters", that the people tolerate government harassment.

Waco, Ruby Ridge, IRS, domestic spying,,,, people are sick and tired of it. The problem is, most people will not do anything about it.

When a group of people take action, they are labeled domestic terrorist.

What should we do to protect people who stand up to the government, nullify the jury and find them not guilty.

That's a little like a politician who said "Hang him! And give 'im a fair trial!"

You can spin Waco and Ruby Ridge all you want, but the Bundy folk and supporters are living in la-la land with their delusions.

Most of the western states were federal territories before they were granted statehood. Point number 1.

Point number 2: Contrary to the contrary anti-logicians of the Right, we live in a "mixed economy." People want "Private goods" which they buy from businesses or other individuals, and they want "Public goods" which simply cannot be provided in any kind of "private" free market.

The distinction is blurred mostly by transfer payments, such as federally subsidized welfare programs. But all these "goods" are traded or provided in a marketplace. The currency for "public goods" is votes -- in addition to the corruption introduced by lobbyists who pay for influence. There is a "market" for public employees, a "market" for public parks and highways.

200 years ago, they say the fish were so thick in the Rappahanock River that you could simply walk from one side to the other on the backs of spawning fish. Lewis and Clark came back from their epic journey with a perspective that the Louisiana Purchase was "infinite."

But it wasn't "infinite" as population grew. The air and water isn't some sewer for BP or western mining interests to foul as they please. Those things are "collective goods." They are in limited supply, like national park lands.

Upset about an entrance fee to the national parks? It's part of a market mechanism -- a user charge, to fund the administration of the parks. This is no different than federal BLM lands in Nevada.

Bundy's family didn't even purchase his family property until 1947. But the issue is a matter of paying user charges to graze cattle on federal land. The land is a collective good -- owned by the public. It is not some infinite resource, free for the taking anymore.

Bundy owes the government millions, for failing to act like a responsible citizen. Meanwhile, the character of the "militias" defending his property has been revealed: Two of them walked into a restaurant and brutally shot two policemen having pizza for lunch.

You can whine all you want with your delusional drivel and self-serving narcissist belief that the world that has emerged since 1776 isn't to your liking.

By the way, Hiker. Your state has produced political careers for three Presidents who gave us four wars. What do you think that's about?

Probably the same thing as the TV commercial that says "BP puts America first," or the cornpone congressman in BP's hip pocket who accused the President of "shaking down" a corporation -- which had turned the fisheries of the Gulf into a toxic sewer.

 

[Texashiker]

When a group of people attempt to protect some duchebag who believes he has a right to use a shared resource for free then yes they are domestic terrorists. There was no government harassment, just a bunch of idiots who for some reason think the law doesn't apply to the them. F that.

You can spin Waco and Ruby Ridge all you want, but the Bundy folk and supporters are living in la-la land with their delusions.

Yall can spin it whatever way all want.

For decades the federal government has been acting like a terrorist organization.

Whether it was shooting an unarmed woman holding a child at Ruby Ridge, or the irs auditing innocent people for no reason, the government has terrorized the people for long enough.

 

[emperus]

When Bush jr let the timber companies clear cut vast tracks of virgin timber on public lands, who was freeloading then?

It is ok when a comapny freeloads off the public, right? But when a citizen does it, it is a crime?

Yes, it is still a crime. But you voted for George Bush right? And am sure you'll continue to vote for more "let corporations do whatever they want" Republicans.

 

[IronWing]

Yall can spin it whatever way all want.

For decades the federal government has been acting like a terrorist organization.

Whether it was shooting an unarmed woman holding a child at Ruby Ridge, or the irs auditing innocent people for no reason, the government has terrorized the people for long enough.

Meanwhile back on the topic of this thread (since you are a stickler for staying on topic), Bundy is still a crook illegally abusing public lands and is still a deadbeat. The idiots who supported him by obstructing justice and training guns on innocent people are still at large and need to be brought to justice.

 

[Texashiker]

The idiots who supported him by obstructing justice and training guns on innocent people are still at large and need to be brought to justice.

Jack booted thug government terrorist are not innocent people.

It is the duty of every free man to resist tyranny.

 

[IronWing]

Jack booted thug government terrorist are not innocent people.

It is the duty of every free man to resist tyranny.

Enforcing a lawful court order is not tyranny. Bundy had his day(s) in court. He was found to be in violation of law. His lackeys should also face their day in court.

 

[Texashiker]

Enforcing a lawful court order is not tyranny. Bundy had his day(s) in court. He was found to be in violation of law. His lackeys should also face their day in court.

What Bundy did was a victimless crime.

How were you hurt by his grazing cattle? Did you suffer any harm?

Then why are you defending the government?

 

[Brainonska511]

What Bundy did was a victimless crime.

How were you hurt by his grazing cattle? Did you suffer any harm?

Then why are you defending the government?

Typical TH. Defend the freeloader as if he was being forced into slave labor to pay child support...

The victims are the US people. This man stole from us by not paying the below market rate grazing fees.

 

[IronWing]

What Bundy did was a victimless crime.

How were you hurt by his grazing cattle? Did you suffer any harm?

Then why are you defending the government?

Bundy's crime is not victimless. Bundy's cattle were trashing the public land and are still trashing the public land. We all pay for that damage. Under the Endangered Species Act that habitat destruction has to be offset elsewhere. Other land users (productive citizens, unlike Bundy) have to pay to mitigate that loss of habitat. Other folks are paying for Bundy's actions.

Bundy owes the treasury a buttload of money. That is money that would be offsetting the public debt if Bundy wasn't a deadbeat.

Why are you defending a thief? Why are you defending armed thugs shielding a thief?

 

[Londo_Jowo]

Bundy should be in jail and so should anyone they can prove pointed their weapon at federal agents.

 

[trenchfoot]

I really have to wonder if all of those "patriots" who rallied around Bundy would have done the same if Bundy were, say, a recent Vietnamese immigrant who didn't know any better, or an retired African American tennis star who always dreamed of owning a ranch, or a disgraced figure skating star who had a competitor crippled to get a better shot at participating in some prestigious world sporting championships.

I mean, it was the fact that Bundy stood up to the fascist federalis that those "patriots" rallied around him and they would have done the same no matter if Hillary Clinton or Fidel Castro themselves did it, right?

 

[BonzaiDuck]

What Bundy did was a victimless crime.

How were you hurt by his grazing cattle? Did you suffer any harm?

Then why are you defending the government?

Contrary to the thoughtless and traditional view of things, the American desert isn't some dead, lifeless piece of moonscape of no value. The next time we have an El Nino and plenty of rain in Arizona, you could see it in the Sonoran Desert bloom.

But wildflowers and Gila Monsters notwithstanding, he owed BLM a charge for every head of cattle he allowed to graze on federal land. Since that range is finite, all the other ranchers who paid their share were being shortchanged by a freeloader.

You could argue whether it was a "crime" or a civil matter: If you get audited by IRS and found to be in arrears on your tax payments, they would only pursue it as a "criminal" matter if for any tax year your "mistake" resulted in a shortfall of tax payments greater than 10% of what you owed, or if it could be proven that your "error" was really deliberate cheating.

This will all be resolved in a civil court; and the "gov'mint" may have a right to put a lien on Bundy's own property or put it up for sale.

It's that simple. If you don't make your car payments, the dealer can repossess your car. If you don't pay your taxes, IRS has remedies compelling you to do so.

One more point. I had explained why air, water and open space isn't just "free." The entire issue in our politics for the lifespan of the Republic has been about "property rights:" but in an expanded view. "How much should a 2-percenter plutocrat pay in taxes?" "What is 'private' property and what is 'collective' or 'public' property?" "Is judicial 'activism' only a case where liberals pursue some new agenda over reproductive rights? Or does the moniker equally apply when the Supremes make a decision favoring concentrated industry, oligopoly -- big business?"

The notion of "public" or "collective" property has had inadequate defense, until we had disasters like Love Canal, the Stringfellow Acid Pits, and air that you could literally taste like sour milk which made your eyes run. Can you use water on your property, contaminate it with nitric acid, let it seep into the groundwater from which the public drinks? Can you build an oil-refinery that spews crap into the air, and then make the health problems of people who breathe that air a cost that they should bear alone? No -- I argue you can't. If you can -- you shouldn't.

 

[zanejohnson]

you know i've been reading this forum for a lot of years... and i've came to a couple of conclusions..

most of you, are either, really young like under 30.... so i have to remember it's ignorance... you probably weren't alive during ruby ridge, you probably dont remember how waco went down..i happened to live about an hour from there, i remember very clearly what happened... or, you've lived very sheltered, silver spoon in mouth lives, and for the most part, are the perfect example of an "armchair general," you THINK you know what's happening, you THINK understand situations, but you just dont have the real life experiences to understand how to read between the lines in these types of situations.


on many occasions, me and TexasHiker have been at odds on topics in this forum, but i'm a grown man, and so is he, so we've never let it go past... agreeing to disagree.. but i gotta say one thing about Texashiker. he's an adult, and he's not ignorant, and when you have me and him, coming together on this subject.... (we are from completely different ends of the political spectrum), but we agree on this for sure.


i cannot believe some of you think somehow the Bundy ranch is some sort of criminal organization??? you dont see the tell tale signs of government Gustapo tactics.... you bought the bait the media dangled in front of your face trying to liken them to some type of terrorist group, or potential terrorists?

while you ignore the 12 OTHER RANCHERS who the .gov already SUCCESSFULLY strong armed off the land surrounding the Bundy ranch?

You ignore the fact that this isn't the only place this is happening? on the Oklahoma/Texas border right now, this is happening too, trying to take peoples land they have been on for 10's of generations. luckily our state government stepped in said quickly big fuck you. which is what should have happened in the Bundy situation, but didn't..


some of you need to really wake up and smell the tyranny.

 

[Brainonska511]

some of you need to really wake up and smell the tyranny.

Whatever you're smelling, it's not tyranny. Bundy is a free-loader, but he's had his days in court (due process). He's been through the court system for YEARS AND LOST multiple times! It's not Bundy's land, it's the Federal Government (and the people's land). How is it tyranny when the government finally enforces the legal judgement against Bundy?

 

[zanejohnson]

What Bundy did was a victimless crime.

How were you hurt by his grazing cattle? Did you suffer any harm?

Then why are you defending the government?

these people are beyond reasoning with or even seeing past the end of their noses they are so ignorant...

it's not worth our time to even try to show them reasons why, let them live about 10 more years, deal with some government stuff, actually write a check to an appraisal district, or pay some taxes (instead of collecting a refund).... when they reach that age, they might start to get it.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

There you have it, two wackos in the late 30's/early 40's that live in conspiracy land. People in their 50's and 60's were taught theft is theft period. Bundy should be thrown in jail, his property confiscated and sold to settle his debt to the US of A.

 

[hal2kilo]

these people are beyond reasoning with or even seeing past the end of their noses they are so ignorant...

it's not worth our time to even try to show them reasons why, let them live about 10 more years, deal with some government stuff, actually write a check to an appraisal district, or pay some taxes (instead of collecting a refund).... when they reach that age, they might start to get it.

No, you are beyond reasoning with.

 

[Zorba]

You ignore the fact that this isn't the only place this is happening? on the Oklahoma/Texas border right now, this is happening too, trying to take peoples land they have been on for 10's of generations. luckily our state government stepped in said quickly big fuck you. which is what should have happened in the Bundy situation, but didn't..


some of you need to really wake up and smell the tyranny.

Oklahoma has only been open to settlement for about 4 generations. Not even Texas has had 10's of generations.

The federal government owns the land, they can decide how the land gets used. If you use it against the law, then you are a criminal. It is pretty simple.

If you owned 1000 acres and I just let my cows graze all over it, would that be okay with you? What if when you tried to kick my cows off, I showed up with a bunch of armed militia members?

 

[brycejones]

these people are beyond reasoning with or even seeing past the end of their noses they are so ignorant...

it's not worth our time to even try to show them reasons why, let them live about 10 more years, deal with some government stuff, actually write a check to an appraisal district, or pay some taxes (instead of collecting a refund).... when they reach that age, they might start to get it.

You ride the same crazy train as TH and Stew.....

 

[smackababy]

let me straighten this out for you. the US imprisons more people than all nations combined.

A 2014 report published by the National Research Council asserts that the prison population of the United States "is by far the largest in the world. Just under one-quarter of the world's prisoners are held in American prisons.".

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

If the US as more people imprisoned than the rest of all nations combined, it would have more than half of the world's prisoners.

And, China doesn't give real numbers. There are two conflicting numbers that pop up (one estimating more prisoners than in the US), but data from the Chinese government is, let's just say, less than accurate.

 

[zanejohnson]

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

If the US as more people imprisoned than the rest of all nations combined, it would have more than half of the world's prisoners.

And, China doesn't give real numbers. There are two conflicting numbers that pop up (one estimating more prisoners than in the US), but data from the Chinese government is, let's just say, less than accurate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_incarceration_rate

it's actually a little over 1/4 of the worlds prisoners.

While the United States represents about 5 percent of the world's population, it houses around 25 percent of the world's prisoners.

and like you say China's numbers are misrepresented......so is USA's.... that doesn't count the illegals detained in "residential centers," such as
T. Don Hutto.

 

[zanejohnson]

You ride the same crazy train as TH and Stew.....

I'm not gonna argue with you, but i would like you to make a mental note of this, for when you get a little bit older, when the stuff the crazy guys say starts to look like reality (it already does, just maybe not in your "bubble")

 

[dank69]

I'm not gonna argue with you, but i would like you to make a mental note of this, for when you get a little bit older, when the stuff the crazy guys say starts to look like reality (it already does, just maybe not in your "bubble")

I notice you didn't answer Zorba's question...