Ryan's "breathtakingly dishonest speech"

[umbrella39]

There really isn't a single intelligent Conservative poster on here anymore. I used to find CAD's ramblings amusing and every now and again the guy would have a cogent POV on something that actually caused me to pause and reconsider.

But none of you guys have shown that you are anything but low information voters. In fact Phokus put it best, you are simply low information period. It's sad how our education system has failed you.

I don't think it's a lack of education... it's a lack of the ability to reasonably process information without knee jerk reacting to it. Then once doing so, never having the ability to self acknowledge there is a possibility you might be wrong, much less ever admitting it. Foolsish pride and selfishness trumps integrity and the truth...

 

[diesbudt]

There really isn't a single intelligent Conservative poster on here anymore. I used to find CAD's ramblings amusing and every now and again the guy would have a cogent POV on something that actually caused me to pause and reconsider.

But none of you guys have shown that you are anything but low information voters. In fact Phokus put it best, you are simply low information period. It's sad how our education system has failed you.

Liberals are no different, they just believe the exact opposite view and have just as dumb arguments for their stances.

Learn to walk the middle, not left or right.

 

[OILFIELDTRASH]

lol @ politics

Keep up the good fight.
:thumbsup:

 

[cronos]

Think about it, who fucking cares about somthing that happened 4 years ago and has since been taken care of. It was so close to the bush exit and obama entrance that it literally just doesnt matter. Stop giving a shit about stupid sensationalized things like this and get back to the real issues.

So who brought this "stupid sensationalized thing" up again?

 

[Smoblikat]

I think Ryan, intentionally lying/distorting the truth..in a nationally televised speech, is definitely worth talking about.

Both sides lie, fair enough.

you have to ask yourself, "why?"

if Obama's record is so horrible, and the GOP constantly harps to the public that Obama's record is worth talking about in this election cycle, then why do they have to make shit up in order to make Obama look bad?

I thought Obama was doing an excellent job making himself look bad?

Why did Ryan have to distort the truth so much?

Ryan had to distort the truth so much because thats the only was romney will get elected, is if h lies. Obama distorts the truth so much because thats the only way he will get elected, if he lies. Obama does make himself look very bad, and so does romney. They dont HAVE to make it up, but it certainly helps them out.

 

[Smoblikat]

So who brought this "stupid sensationalized thing" up again?

Specifically in this instance it was OP. But the issue was brought up by the liberals claiming that ryan lied. Theres evidence proving that Romneys side is telling the truth, and I have seen equally compelling evidence showing that his team is lying through their teeth, in the end it really doesnt matter. We should all just get back to issues that truly can be blamed on one side so we dont have to deal with this BS anymore.

 

[OrByte]

Ryan had to distort the truth so much because thats the only was romney will get elected, is if h lies. Obama distorts the truth so much because thats the only way he will get elected, if he lies. Obama does make himself look very bad, and so does romney. They dont HAVE to make it up, but it certainly helps them out.

I'll be looking for all of the lies that Obama says during the DNC.

I'll be particularly interested if these are lies that are meant to make a positive spin on his own record (Obama record lies)

or lies that are meant to make Romney look bad (Lies on Romney/Ryan)

frankly, I will be looking to compare the two national conventions to see if what republicans say is true...that the Dems lies more.

frankly, I don't believe it...but I would be happy to be proven wrong.

 

[Atreus21]

oh man...

OK OK I can play that game and split hairs even FURTHER

Obama said that the plant would still "Be HERE" in 100 years.

and it is still there right?

Obama never said it would remain OPEN in 100 years..

fvckin A people.... the implications in Ryan's speech are clear as day.

Don't start attacking the fact checkers....on both sides...but just use some goddam common sense and get off the, "MY TEAM DOESN'T LIE" mentality.

Ryan said what he said to imply that it was Obama's fault....PERIOD. Otherwise, what was the point in saying it? its the english language, we all use it, lets not pretend otherwise by trying to break this down into a legalistic interpretation and definitions of words.

common sense...please!

Agree with the bolded.

But Ryan's statement will be interpreted in whatever fashion necessary by those who support or oppose him to adjust his statements into accord with their political impression of him.

 

[Smoblikat]

I'll be looking for all of the lies that Obama says during the DNC.

I'll be particularly interested if these are lies that are meant to make a positive spin on his own record (Obama record lies)

or lies that are meant to make Romney look bad (Lies on Romney/Ryan)

frankly, I will be looking to compare the two national conventions to see if what republicans say is true...that the Dems lies more.

frankly, I don't believe it...but I would be happy to be proven wrong.

I see more lies directly out of republicans mouths than I do out of democrats. But I see more lies in democratic paid advertising than I do in republican advertising. I will be suprised if Obama lies during the DNC, after the fuss he caused about this thing, to do so would be political suicide.

 

[OrByte]

I see more lies directly out of republicans mouths than I do out of democrats. But I see more lies in democratic paid advertising than I do in republican advertising. I will be suprised if Obama lies during the DNC, after the fuss he caused about this thing, to do so would be political suicide.

good point.

It would benefit the Ds to refrain from the open outright lies.

 

[Nemesis 1]

I don't think it's a lack of education... it's a lack of the ability to reasonably process information without knee jerk reacting to it. Then once doing so, never having the ability to self acknowledge there is a possibility you might be wrong, much less ever admitting it. Foolsish pride and selfishness trumps integrity and the truth...

So true . Thats why I will vote for obummer. The intelligance on the left is overwhelming. So I want obummer for 4 more years so the left can prove once and for all what great minds they have ,

 

[OrByte]

Agree with the bolded.

But Ryan's statement will be interpreted in whatever fashion necessary by those who support or oppose him to adjust his statements into accord with their political impression of him.

I think that in the specific example re: the plant closing you are correct.

But he flat out lied about Obama focusing on ACA only when he came into office.

ARRA came before ACA. There is no (mis)interpretation there.

But the point Ryan tried to make is that Obama didnt care about the economy only healthcare reform. And that is a lie.

 

[Fern]

Let's review what Ryan said, not what some 'interpret' him to say (or outright lie about). But just what he said:

President Barack Obama came to office during an economic crisis, as he has reminded us a time or two. Those were very tough days, and any fair measure of his record has to take that into account. My home state voted for President Obama. When he talked about change, many people liked the sound of it, especially in Janesville, where we were about to lose a major factory.

A lot of guys I went to high school with worked at that GM plant. Right there at that plant, candidate Obama said: “I believe that if our government is there to support you … this plant will be here for another hundred years.” That’s what he said in 2008.

Well, as it turned out, that plant didn’t last another year. It is locked up and empty to this day. And that’s how it is in so many towns today, where the recovery that was promised is nowhere in sight.

1. Says Obama came in during "tough days" and that should be taken into account

Verdict: TRUE

2. Says they were about to lose the plant.

Verdict: TRUE

3. Claims Obama said: “I believe that if our government is there to support you … this plant will be here for another hundred years.” That’s what he said in 2008.

Verdict: TRUE

4. Says "Well, as it turned out, that plant didn’t last another year. It is locked up and empty to this day."

Verdict: Mostly TRUE. Apparently, there is a skeleton crew still there. But no autos are being produced.

5. Says "And that’s how it is in so many towns today, where the recovery that was promised is nowhere in sight".

Verdict: Mostly TRUE. It's reasonable to claim the 'bleeding' has stopped, but we haven't recovered. We still have fewer jobs than Obama came into office.

Now here's what the Left has had to say to make Ryan look like a liar:

A. From Ezra Klein's article:

You simply can’t say the president broke his promise to keep your GM plant open.

Verdict: False. No where did Ryan say that Obama made, or broke, a promise to keep the plant open. No where. He merely quoted Obama. No one is arguing that the quote is false or incorrect somehow

B. From Bowfinger's post above: (Edit: Bowfinger objects to my using his quote. I'll replace it with another quote when I get a chance. I didn't realize it was so late. I must log out for the day.)

It's equally unsurprising that he parrots the deception that the plant was still open, producing light trucks.

Verdict: False. Ryan did not claim the plant was open when Obama took office. (Although it appears it was, and producing light trucks. However, this is irrelevant to Ryan's actual point.)

C. From Sally Kohn's article linked above:

Fact: While Ryan blamed President Obama for the shut down of a GM plant in Janesville, Wisconsin, the plant was actually closed under President George W. Bush.

Verdict: False (x2). No where did Ryan blame Obama for the shut down of the plant. (He, in fact, mentioned the tough days Obama inherited.) Also, appears the plant didn't close until after Obama took office. It was producing light trucks.)

I'll stop there.

Ryan's point was that the recovery Obama promised didn't happen. Period. That's it. The example of the plant in Janesville is used only to illustrate this point.

The only legitimate thing that can be argued as to falsehoods by Ryan is - did Obama promise a recovery. If you want to argue that, go ahead. But I note no one has.

Instead, we have a serious of strawmen, false claims as to what Ryan said, set up by the Dems/Progs so they can try to claim Ryan is a liar by knocking them down. (In most cases they failed with their falsehoods - see actual date production of autos/light trucks actually stopped.)

Yes, there is a lot of 'bullshit", "born followers", "detachment from reality", lack of "basic logic skills" and "dishonest bs spin", and it's clear which side it is coming from.

There isn't one lie or falsehood in Ryan's statement. There are only two points to debate (OK, I originally said just one above.): (1) did Obama promise a recovery, and (2) have we actually had a recovery. But no one has taken up these points, instead they have chosen to create their own lies and then wrongly attack Ryan for them.

Finally: Sally Kohn is a pathetic lying/spinning hack, easily debunked; sliced and diced actually.

Edit: Another method to analyze this would be take each individual sentence and grade it true or false. The result is the same: all are true.

Fern

 

[PJABBER]

Let's review what Ryan said, not what some 'interpret' him to say. But just what he said:

1. Says Obama came in during "tough days" and that should be taken into account

Verdict: TRUE

2. Says they were about to lose the plant.

Verdict: TRUE

3. Claims Obama said: “I believe that if our government is there to support you … this plant will be here for another hundred years.” That’s what he said in 2008.

Verdict: TRUE

4. Says "Well, as it turned out, that plant didn’t last another year. It is locked up and empty to this day."

Verdict: Mostly TRUE. Apparently, there is a skeleton crew still there. But no autos are being produced.

5. Says "And that’s how it is in so many towns today, where the recovery that was promised is nowhere in sight".

Verdict: Mostly TRUE. It's reasonable to claim the 'bleeding' has stopped, but we haven't recovered. We still have fewer jobs than Obama came into office.

Now here's what the Left has had to say to make Ryan look like a liar:

A. From Ezra Klein's article:


Verdict: False. No where did Ryan say that Obama made, or broke, a promise to keep the plant open. No where.

B. From Bowfinger's post above:



Verdict: False. Ryan did not claim the plant was open when Obama took office. (Although it appears it was, and producing light trucks. However, this is irrelevant to Ryan's actual point.)

C. From Sally Kohn's article linked above:



Verdict: False (x2). No where did Ryan blame Obama for the shut down of the plant. (He, in fact, mentioned the tough days Obama inherited.) Also, appears the plant didn't close until after Obama took office. It was producing light trucks.)

I'll stop there.

Ryan's point was that the recovery Obama promised didn't happen. Period. That's it.

The only legitimate thing that can be argued as to falsehoods by Ryan is - did Obama promise a recovery. If you want to argue that, go ahead. But I note no one has.

Instead, we have a serious of strawmen, false claims as to what Ryan said, set up by the Dems/Progs so they can try to claim Ryan is a liar by knocking them down. (IN most cases they failed with their falsehoods - see actual date production of autos/light trucks actually stopped.)

Yes, there is a lot of 'bullshit", "born followers", "detachment from reality", lack of "basic logic skills" and "dishonest bs spin", and it's clear which side it is coming from.

There isn't one lie or falsehood in Ryan's statement. There are only two points to debate: (1) did Obama promise a recovery, and (2) have we actually had a recovery. But no one has taken up these points, instead they have choosen to create their own lies and then wrongly attacking Ryan for them.

Finally: Sally Kohn is a pathetic lying/spinnng hack, easily debunked; sliced and diced actually.

Fern

AWESOME!

I know how long it takes to put together a rebuttal like that to rebalance the Truth Scale... Well done! :thumbsup:

 

[Bowfinger]

[ ... ]
B. From Bowfinger's post above:

Verdict: False. Ryan did not claim the plant was open when Obama took office. (Although it appears it was, and producing light trucks. However, this is irrelevant to Ryan's actual point.) ...

Really, Fern? Who was I talking about in that quote? Ryan? No. I was specifically addressing Pjabber's comments and the story he quoted. Try to follow along.

 

[werepossum]

Let's review what Ryan said, not what some 'interpret' him to say. But just what he said:



1. Says Obama came in during "tough days" and that should be taken into account

Verdict: TRUE

2. Says they were about to lose the plant.

Verdict: TRUE

3. Claims Obama said: “I believe that if our government is there to support you … this plant will be here for another hundred years.” That’s what he said in 2008.

Verdict: TRUE

4. Says "Well, as it turned out, that plant didn’t last another year. It is locked up and empty to this day."

Verdict: Mostly TRUE. Apparently, there is a skeleton crew still there. But no autos are being produced.

5. Says "And that’s how it is in so many towns today, where the recovery that was promised is nowhere in sight".

Verdict: Mostly TRUE. It's reasonable to claim the 'bleeding' has stopped, but we haven't recovered. We still have fewer jobs than Obama came into office.

Now here's what the Left has had to say to make Ryan look like a liar:

A. From Ezra Klein's article:


Verdict: False. No where did Ryan say that Obama made, or broke, a promise to keep the plant open. No where.

B. From Bowfinger's post above:



Verdict: False. Ryan did not claim the plant was open when Obama took office. (Although it appears it was, and producing light trucks. However, this is irrelevant to Ryan's actual point.)

C. From Sally Kohn's article linked above:



Verdict: False (x2). No where did Ryan blame Obama for the shut down of the plant. (He, in fact, mentioned the tough days Obama inherited.) Also, appears the plant didn't close until after Obama took office. It was producing light trucks.)

I'll stop there.

Ryan's point was that the recovery Obama promised didn't happen. Period. That's it.

The only legitimate thing that can be argued as to falsehoods by Ryan is - did Obama promise a recovery. If you want to argue that, go ahead. But I note no one has.

Instead, we have a serious of strawmen, false claims as to what Ryan said, set up by the Dems/Progs so they can try to claim Ryan is a liar by knocking them down. (IN most cases they failed with their falsehoods - see actual date production of autos/light trucks actually stopped.)

Yes, there is a lot of 'bullshit", "born followers", "detachment from reality", lack of "basic logic skills" and "dishonest bs spin", and it's clear which side it is coming from.

There isn't one lie or falsehood in Ryan's statement. There are only two points to debate: (1) did Obama promise a recovery, and (2) have we actually had a recovery. But no one has taken up these points, instead they have choosen to create their own lies and then wrongly attacking Ryan for them.

Finally: Sally Kohn is a pathetic lying/spinnng hack, easily debunked; sliced and diced actually.

Fern

Very well said. It's standard political theater. The only difference is that this time the Democrats have a candidate who absolutely cannot run on his record, so they have to make up lies to attribute to Romney and Ryan. It's all they've got, so we're getting a continuous barrage.

The ironic side is that had we had President McCain for four years, things would probably be little or no better. We've got systemic problems greatly exacerbated by (and in turn greatly exacerbating) our "recovery", which is basically borrowing and spending enough money to keep the GDP above level so that we can pretend we're recovering. I could be wrong - I hope Romney gets elected and proves me wrong - but I suspect the difference between President Romney and President Obama is going to be fractions of a percent at best in unemployment and real growth.

 

[soundforbjt]

Let's review what Ryan said, not what some 'interpret' him to say (or outright lie about). But just what he said:



1. Says Obama came in during "tough days" and that should be taken into account

Verdict: TRUE

2. Says they were about to lose the plant.

Verdict: TRUE

3. Claims Obama said: “I believe that if our government is there to support you … this plant will be here for another hundred years.” That’s what he said in 2008.

Verdict: TRUE

4. Says "Well, as it turned out, that plant didn’t last another year. It is locked up and empty to this day."

Verdict: Mostly TRUE. Apparently, there is a skeleton crew still there. But no autos are being produced.

5. Says "And that’s how it is in so many towns today, where the recovery that was promised is nowhere in sight".

Verdict: Mostly TRUE. It's reasonable to claim the 'bleeding' has stopped, but we haven't recovered. We still have fewer jobs than Obama came into office.

Now here's what the Left has had to say to make Ryan look like a liar:

A. From Ezra Klein's article:


Verdict: False. No where did Ryan say that Obama made, or broke, a promise to keep the plant open. No where. He merely quoted Obama. No one is arguing that the quote is false or incorrect somehow

B. From Bowfinger's post above:



Verdict: False. Ryan did not claim the plant was open when Obama took office. (Although it appears it was, and producing light trucks. However, this is irrelevant to Ryan's actual point.)

C. From Sally Kohn's article linked above:



Verdict: False (x2). No where did Ryan blame Obama for the shut down of the plant. (He, in fact, mentioned the tough days Obama inherited.) Also, appears the plant didn't close until after Obama took office. It was producing light trucks.)

I'll stop there.

Ryan's point was that the recovery Obama promised didn't happen. Period. That's it. The example of the plant in Janesville is used only to illustrate this point.

The only legitimate thing that can be argued as to falsehoods by Ryan is - did Obama promise a recovery. If you want to argue that, go ahead. But I note no one has.

Instead, we have a serious of strawmen, false claims as to what Ryan said, set up by the Dems/Progs so they can try to claim Ryan is a liar by knocking them down. (In most cases they failed with their falsehoods - see actual date production of autos/light trucks actually stopped.)

Yes, there is a lot of 'bullshit", "born followers", "detachment from reality", lack of "basic logic skills" and "dishonest bs spin", and it's clear which side it is coming from.

There isn't one lie or falsehood in Ryan's statement. There are only two points to debate (OK, I originally said just one above.): (1) did Obama promise a recovery, and (2) have we actually had a recovery. But no one has taken up these points, instead they have chosen to create their own lies and then wrongly attack Ryan for them.

Finally: Sally Kohn is a pathetic lying/spinning hack, easily debunked; sliced and diced actually.

Edit: Another method to analyze this would be take each individual sentence and grade it true or false. The result is the same: No lie, at all.

Fern

Nice wall O' text to spin what we all know Ryan was implying in his choice of words. Poll the audience and guess what they thought it meant.

 

[Fern]

Really, Fern? Who was I talking about in that quote? Ryan? No. I was specifically addressing Pjabber's comments and the story he quoted. Try to follow along.

Yes, I saw that were specifically addressing PJabber's post. However, if I wrongly assumed you were claiming this point yourself (plant was or was not still open) I apologize for using you in a quote. Otherwise, my point is valid. Those from the Left are making this claim; see Sally Kohn.

Fern

 

[Fern]

Nice wall O' text to spin what we all know Ryan was implying in his choice of words. Poll the audience and guess what they thought it meant.

No need to resort to implications (unless you're trying mightily spin and attack) when the words/sentences are so straight forward and clear.

I'm guessing the audience actually got the point: Obama's promised recovery didn't happen.

Fern

 

[Gonad the Barbarian]

Obama is using US troops to target and kill Christians.
Verdict: True.

Of course ignore the clearly intended implication of that statement.

 

[werepossum]

Nice wall O' text to spin what we all know Ryan was implying in his choice of words. Poll the audience and guess what they thought it meant.

You guys are so funny!
Obama:

If you've got a business, you didn't build that. Somebody else made that happen.

LEFT: That's not what he meant! Context! You lie!

Ryan:

President Barack Obama came to office during an economic crisis, as he has reminded us a time or two. Those were very tough days, and any fair measure of his record has to take that into account. My home state voted for President Obama. When he talked about change, many people liked the sound of it, especially in Janesville, where we were about to lose a major factory.

A lot of guys I went to high school with worked at that GM plant. Right there at that plant, candidate Obama said: “I believe that if our government is there to support you … this plant will be here for another hundred years.” That’s what he said in 2008.

Well, as it turned out, that plant didn’t last another year. It is locked up and empty to this day. And that’s how it is in so many towns today, where the recovery that was promised is nowhere in sight.

LEFT: Did you hear that? Ryan lied when he said Obama broke his promise!

So to the left, what you said is not what you actually said, but what you didn't say IS what you actually said.

That explains a lot, actually.

 

[OneOfTheseDays]

Fern you clearly did not read the fact check article in its entirety and instead have chosen to pick the one point from the article that may be open to interpretation. In eagerly awaiting your point by point rebuttal of the rest of the article.

The bottom line is the GOP has been outright lying this election at a level we've never seen. There is no disputing this and the facts do not bear out any other way.

 

[OneOfTheseDays]

Implication and innuendo is everything with the GOP. Its how they subtly hide their racism now that they can't openly say the same things. If you can't see this, you severely lack critical thinking and reading comprehension skills.

 

[Gonad the Barbarian]

Ryan had to distort the truth so much because thats the only was romney will get elected, is if h lies. Obama distorts the truth so much because thats the only way he will get elected, if he lies. Obama does make himself look very bad, and so does romney. They dont HAVE to make it up, but it certainly helps them out.

We can change that!
http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/t...he-road-to-jeb-bush-2016---we-can-change-that

 

[Fern]

Fern you clearly did not read the fact check article in its entirety and instead have chosen to pick the one point from the article that may be open to interpretation. In eagerly awaiting your point by point rebuttal of the rest of the article.

The bottom line is the GOP has been outright lying this election at a level we've never seen. There is no disputing this and the facts do not bear out any other way.

No, I didn't read the entire Fact Check article. It includes many different claims and my post is only about this one Ryan statement.

I never said the entire Fact Check article was wrong. I did glance at some of their other claims and my recollection was that some of their criticism looked valid.

I don't know that I want to go through the entire thing. My recollection was that it was quite long.

Fern