Russia gets Crimea

[theeedude]

and if europe and turkey refuse to buy any oil or natural gas from russia or allow and transportation of such and also declare sanctions against russia what do you think will happen to the muscovites?

They'll sell it to Asia. What do you think will happen to European companies if their gas is twice as expensive as their competitors instead of half as expensive?

 

[norseamd]

They'll sell it to Asia. What do you think will happen to European companies if their gas is twice as expensive as their competitors instead of half as expensive?

china might not even build that pipeline

the price tag is tens of billions of dollars

china is already thinking about fracking

the us could see some business oppertunities and make fracking and green technology deals with china

 

[theeedude]

https://news.vice.com/articles/i-ha...-in-sloviansk?trk_source=homepage-in-the-news

https://news.vice.com/articles/unre...gaining-chips?trk_source=homepage-in-the-news

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FONN-0uoTHI

 

[shady28]

and if europe and turkey refuse to buy any oil or natural gas from russia or allow and transportation of such and also declare sanctions against russia what do you think will happen to the muscovites?

Interesting.

So basically you feel its more important to stick it to the Russians for.. something ..than to maintain economic stability?

My point really is that you and many others on this thread don't seem to understand what something like $8/gal gas means.

It means a lot of people won't be able to afford going to work due to the price of gas. It means a lot of people will get laid off as businesses fail. It means many prices will go up, as it takes gasoline to deliver both goods and services.

If you're lucky enough to still be worrying about such things, it means your asset value (like your house) will go down - because the number of buyers will dry up. It means a lot of people depending on their 401Ks etc in stock markets will lose their shirt (again). It means the Gov't will likely run a lot more debt - and all the potentials that implies.

All that for... what?

By the way, if anyone who's been reading the various posts / news here really thinks either the US or EU gov'ts sanctions against Russia are about what's "right" or "wrong"... you haven't been paying attention. It's unlikely any of us know why the EU or US is doing what they're doing, but I can guarantee you it has nothing to do with right and wrong.

 

[norseamd]

Interesting. So basically you feel its more important to stick it to the Russians for.. something ..than to maintain economic stability? My point really is that you and many others on this thread don't seem to understand what something like $8/gal gas means. It means a lot of people won't be able to afford going to work due to the price of gas. It means a lot of people will get laid off as businesses fail. It means many prices will go up, as it takes gasoline to deliver both goods and services. If you're lucky enough to still be worrying about such things, it means your asset value (like your house) will go down - because the number of buyers will dry up. It means a lot of people depending on their 401Ks etc in stock markets will lose their shirt (again). It means the Gov't will likely run a lot more debt - and all the potentials that implies. All that for... what? By the way, if anyone who's been reading the various posts / news here really thinks either the US or EU gov'ts sanctions against Russia are about what's "right" or "wrong"... you haven't been paying attention. It's unlikely any of us know why the EU or US is doing what they're doing, but I can guarantee you it has nothing to do with right and wrong.

considering i am reading upside down from my bed i will have to read this later

 

[shady28]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FONN-0uoTHI

Yeah, unless course changes radically it looks like :

1 - The Ukrainian military will get into a shooting war with separatists / civilians in the east, mostly ethnic Russians; no doubt there will be "atrocities".

2 - Russia will probably wind up invading, and pounding Ukraine's military.

I would bet that Russia will take the eastern half of Ukraine up to the Dneiper river that divides the country. That half is mostly pro-Russia.

Need to start looking for a hybrid car...

 

[michal1980]

Interesting.

So basically you feel its more important to stick it to the Russians for.. something ..than to maintain economic stability?

My point really is that you and many others on this thread don't seem to understand what something like $8/gal gas means.

It means a lot of people won't be able to afford going to work due to the price of gas. It means a lot of people will get laid off as businesses fail. It means many prices will go up, as it takes gasoline to deliver both goods and services.

If you're lucky enough to still be worrying about such things, it means your asset value (like your house) will go down - because the number of buyers will dry up. It means a lot of people depending on their 401Ks etc in stock markets will lose their shirt (again). It means the Gov't will likely run a lot more debt - and all the potentials that implies.

All that for... what?

By the way, if anyone who's been reading the various posts / news here really thinks either the US or EU gov'ts sanctions against Russia are about what's "right" or "wrong"... you haven't been paying attention. It's unlikely any of us know why the EU or US is doing what they're doing, but I can guarantee you it has nothing to do with right and wrong.

oh look another Chamberlin in the room.

Please tell us how much of Europe Russia can take before you feel its ok to try to stop them?

 

[rpsgc]

oh look another Chamberlin in the room.

Please tell us how much of Europe Russia can take before you feel its ok to try to stop them?

I'm guessing the answer is lies between 'all of it' and 'it'll never be OK to stop them'.

 

[cubby1223]

Interesting.

So basically you feel its more important to stick it to the Russians for.. something ..than to maintain economic stability?

My point really is that you and many others on this thread don't seem to understand what something like $8/gal gas means.

It means a lot of people won't be able to afford going to work due to the price of gas. It means a lot of people will get laid off as businesses fail. It means many prices will go up, as it takes gasoline to deliver both goods and services.

If you're lucky enough to still be worrying about such things, it means your asset value (like your house) will go down - because the number of buyers will dry up. It means a lot of people depending on their 401Ks etc in stock markets will lose their shirt (again). It means the Gov't will likely run a lot more debt - and all the potentials that implies.

All that for... what?

By the way, if anyone who's been reading the various posts / news here really thinks either the US or EU gov'ts sanctions against Russia are about what's "right" or "wrong"... you haven't been paying attention. It's unlikely any of us know why the EU or US is doing what they're doing, but I can guarantee you it has nothing to do with right and wrong.

If Putin is dethroned, gas will no longer be $8/gal.

The world will return to sanity. Russians will realize the world doesn't hate them because they are Russian. The world hates Russia because their government is corrupt and oppressive to a level like yeah we know all power corrupts but damn you guys have serious "getting along with others" problems.

That's the goal. The world doesn't roll over and play dead for bad rulers to reign victoriously.

 

[Sonikku]

One nuke to Moscow is like all it would take. How many we have? Like thousands? We can spare it.

 

[Jaskalas]

Russia is too big (and nuclear) to screw around with. If push comes to shove, who will China side with? Economic ties are what bind us against war. Severing them with Russia could be a tactical mistake. IMO, real sanctions would consolidate power in Asia. Has the human race not repeatedly proven that such isolation leads to blood? We are taking a position of backing Russia into a corner, of making them our enemy when there's really no need to do this.

Russia has a pressing concern of ethnic Russians. Russia does not respect the borders of its neighbors. We get it. No one was prepared to stop their advance, and now they've dug into Crimea. After Crimea, are we prepared to counter a second invasion into Ukraine? Where is our military mobilization / deployment?

Fact is, we're not prepared to ensure the safety of Eastern Europe.

Russia needs two things.

1. A firm backbone from us, where the West's combined military might is in position to respond and shoot at the next invasion.
2. Real concessions. Such as allowing Ukraine to ethnically divide, even allowing Russia the spoils. Such as a DMZ of buffer states between NATO and Russia. Such as the slow but effective draw-down and end of NATO, even if just symbolically, but also to kick Europe in the rear and encourage them to organize their own military.

Some of this is posturing, some of it is real threats, some of it false weakness, some of it is real concession. Russia should not be ignored or treated as some petulant child, but as a partner in world peace who is making demands.

We have to find it in ourselves to be reasonable, and to play a long game that helps maintain peace and stability. We need to be engaged with them diplomatically to calm the situation down. Thus far we have not done that, all we've done is ignore the Russian position and demand Crimea back.

 

[norseamd]

but as a partner in world peace who is making demands

 

[theeedude]

Russia played nice with the West for 20 years, and in return, the West expanded it's anti-Russian military alliance to Russia's doorstep. Now it wants to expand it to Ukraine. Russia won't let that happen without a fight.

 

[fskimospy]

Russia played nice with the West for 20 years, and in return, the West expanded it's anti-Russian military alliance to Russia's doorstep. Now it wants to expand it to Ukraine. Russia won't let that happen without a fight.

You have a very strange view of the world, one that is bizarrely pro-Russian, considering how horribly Russia has acted.

In the end Russia will accept Ukraine in NATO because it really has no other choice. It is too weak militarily and economically to do much else.

 

[rpsgc]

What is this I'm reading? Have I entered into some alternate dimension / twilight zone where Russia is the good guy?


This is beyond ignorant morons drinking the kool-aid, this is full scale indoctrination.

 

[K1052]

We have to find it in ourselves to be reasonable, and to play a long game that helps maintain peace and stability. We need to be engaged with them diplomatically to calm the situation down. Thus far we have not done that, all we've done is ignore the Russian position and demand Crimea back.

I've got reasonable for this situation: Redeploy the THAAD unit on Guam to Poland and ship PAC3 batteries to the Baltics along with enough handheld anti-tank and shoulder fired anti-air missiles to remove all doubt that invading isn't a good idea.

Submitting to Putin's aggression is not a viable long term strategy.

 

[cubby1223]

Russia played nice with the West for 20 years, and in return, the West expanded it's anti-Russian military alliance to Russia's doorstep. Now it wants to expand it to Ukraine. Russia won't let that happen without a fight.

Here is senseamp's telling of the events:

The world: "We don't want you to invade our borders and kill/imprison our citizens"
Russia: "We will invade you and kill/imprison your citizens to teach you not to desire peace and economic improvement"
senseamp: "Sounds fair to me"

 

[theeedude]

You have a very strange view of the world, one that is bizarrely pro-Russian, considering how horribly Russia has acted.

In the end Russia will accept Ukraine in NATO because it really has no other choice. It is too weak militarily and economically to do much else.

This attitude in the West is leading us to war. Russia will do a lot about it militarily if they have to, and they've made it abundantly clear.
It's a very strange view of the world where we cross Russia's red line and expect it to play nice.

 

[rpsgc]

A madman like Putin cannot be reasoned with. A bully like him only understands one thing: force.

It baffles me how people not get that. It also baffles me how people forget History. I'm sure trying to appease Hitler worked out just fine, oh wait...

 

[K1052]

Russia played nice with the West for 20 years, and in return, the West expanded it's anti-Russian military alliance to Russia's doorstep. Now it wants to expand it to Ukraine. Russia won't let that happen without a fight.

Russia "played nice" only because it was in no position to do anything else. That many of their formerly conquered states would seek alliances to prevent another recurrence is entirely reasonable thing....to anyone who isn't Russian.

 

[cubby1223]

Former U.S.S.R. Satellite Countries: "We don't want to be controlled by Russia again."
Russia: "Nonsense, we always get to enforce control over you."
senseamp: "Better do as they say, it's for the best, really. It's foolish to think otherwise."

 

[fskimospy]

This attitude in the West is leading us to war. Russia will do a lot about it militarily if they have to, and they've made it abundantly clear.
It's a very strange view of the world where we cross Russia's red line and expect it to play nice.

I think you have a poor understanding of what Russia will and will not accept.

I would also appreciate you acknowledging that Russia's moves in Ukraine have been naked and illegal acts of aggression. Can you admit this?

 

[theeedude]

A madman like Putin cannot be reasoned with. A bully like him only understands one thing: force.

It baffles me how people not get that. It also baffles me how people forget History. I'm sure trying to appease Hitler worked out just fine, oh wait...

Russia has a much longer history that WW2, all of it says that allowing foreign militaries on its door steps leads nowhere good.

 

[fskimospy]

Russia "played nice" only because it was in no position to do anything else. That many of their formerly conquered states would seek alliances to prevent another recurrence is entirely reasonable thing....to anyone who isn't Russian.

Exactly. Russia has a long, long history of attacking the countries it borders. Repeatedly. Anyone who has taken IR 101 could see that these countries would attempt to protect themselves from future attacks. Russia is afraid of the west, but not much else. Therefore you align with the west.

 

[fskimospy]

Russia has a much longer history that WW2, all of it says that allowing foreign militaries on its door steps leads nowhere good.

Funny thing is that Russia has taught all it's neighbors that having Russia on your door steps leads nowhere good.