Running bad on joints and other questions.

[InflatableBuddha]

Good post thanks! So you're saying I should lift weihts too in order to prevent injury? I don't touch weights I'm too big already and have body type who mearly looks at them and gains 2" on bicepts Keep in mind I was a 320 lb man at one time and still didn't look fat according to people and wore a 38" waist..I was a fat body heartt attack waiting to happen but being tall hides a lot. Seriously, would love to get down 200 but I don't think it's possible and weight lifting will just go the opposite direction I'm trying to achive.. My Dad OTOH said he started losing muscle mass at 60 so he works out to maintain.

Yes. Lifting weights and doing core strength (Swiss ball, balance board, etc.) and plyometrics just twice a week will do wonders for your muscular strength and injury prevention.

You can do squats in the cage, lunges with dumbbells, step-ups with dumbbells, pushups on a bosu ball, etc. There are lots of exercises that will help.

Focus on high reps, lower weight and you'll gain strength without a huge amount of bulk. You'll actually change your body composition as well.

Don't worry so much about weight as body fat percentage. You can lose weight, then gain muscle bulk and end up around the same weight but with a lower BF%.

For example, I'm 5'9" and I was only 130 lbs in university. I maxed out at about 55 miles per week. I ran less after school, and by the time I got back from traveling, I weighed 145. I started running more and changed my diet, and got down to 133-135. Then I started going to the gym as well, and I bulked up to about 140.

So, I'm only net 5 lbs lighter than when I got back from traveling, but I have less fat and more muscle (and I can now handle 75-80 mile weeks).

 

[Zebo]

Interesting. I did read once that leg curls can prevent injury for runners via knee strengthening but not that other stuff. My legs are huge and ripped no fat whatsoever I guess from supporting all that mass and impact but I certainly don't want to make them bigger. I was a running back dude so the muscle mass is just there, ass too. I wish I had these rails of the guys I see skating around track effortlessly... probably like you :::jealous:::

80 MPW OMG!! - we're not even in same leaque. You're Bruce Jenner doing what's natural I'm Brock Lesnar (if he didn't work out) tying to look like Bruce Jenner.

High levels of muscle aint good for nothin but bar fights which I don't do. Hard on heart look how long all those big guys live average life expectancy of x pro footall player is like 53! Seriously my goal used to be 200 lbs and lifting weights is not the way there I think. I'm finding it impossible to get below 240 even running 2x a day. Can't shave muscle off.

 

[InflatableBuddha]

Interesting. I did read once that leg curls can prevent injury for runners via knee strengthening but not that other stuff. My legs are huge and ripped no fat whatsoever I guess from supporting all that mass and impact but I certainly don't want to make them bigger. I was a running back dude so the muscle mass is just there, ass too. I wish I had these rails of the guys I see skating around track effortlessly... probably like you :::jealous:::

80 MPW OMG!! - we're not even in same leaque. You're Bruce Jenner doing what's natural I'm Brock Lesnar (if he didn't work out) tying to look like Bruce Jenner.

High levels of muscle aint good for nothin but bar fights which I don't do. Hard on heart look how long all those big guys live average life expectancy of x pro footall player is like 53! Seriously my goal used to be 200 lbs and lifting weights is not the way there I think. I'm finding it impossible to get below 240 even running 2x a day. Can't shave muscle off.

Well, the idea is to strengthen the muscles around the knee, so the hamstrings are part of that, as well as the quadriceps and glutes. Sounds like you're there.

A running back! Damn! Well I figured you probably have a different body type than me. Of course too much muscle inhibits running faster (more mass to carry and surface area to cool), but you can possibly modify your diet a bit and see if you can get your BF% down. That would certainly help.

I'm trying to be more like Ryan Hall than Bruce Jenner, but thanks . This running thing is a lot of work, but it's a fascinating journey/experiment.

 

[eits]

Wat? How? I've never used a mousepad in over a decade. The fleshy part of my palm IS my mousepad.

lol whoops! i mean wristpad

 

[eits]

Well, as I said, I've had other issues over the years (ITB syndrome, stress fractures, achilles tendinitis once, etc.) With better stretching and strengthening I seem to be less injury prone now than when I was younger. I have running friends my age who have run even more mileage without getting ANY injuries, which is really rare.

You are right that I do have a natural runner's build, as does my dad, but I'm not biomechanically perfect (I need to use orthotics).

No, I haven't had a knee x-ray, nor has my dad. Why would I get one unless I'm having knee pain?

Also, knee problems and runner's knee are different. The latter is generally caused by weak quadriceps, hamstrings or glute muscles, which allow the knee to track improperly. Doing strengthening exercises such as squats and hamstring curls usually fixes the problem.

Here's a study about distance running and knee osteoarthritis:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2556152/

the study is assuming that people have a healthy bmi to begin with. the average american does not.

also, as for the knee x-rays, you asked why you'd look at your knee unless you're having knee pain. that's a somewhat flawed model of thinking, in my opinion. for example, why get a mammogram unless you find a lump? why have a prostate exam or colonoscopy unless you start pooping blood and have low back pain? why go to the dentist at all if you don't have a toothache?

and i know what runner's knee is. it's still a function of the knee complex and they call it runner's knee/patellofemoral pain syndrome/patellar tracking disorder/chondromalacia patellae/etc. because it's more common in runner's than the average guy/girl.

 

[eits]

There is plenty of doubt about it. For example, check out the following articles:






If we are going to use common sense, I'd argue that your idea that people are not "naturally born to run" is a pile of BS. Go back a few thousand years (a blink in evolutionary terms) and every human most likely ran as part of their day to day life. There is lots of research (see How Running Made Us Human) and anecdotal evidence (see Born to Run) that shows we are uniquely well adapted to running. There are also many studies that show that it is actually shoes/sneakers that cause many of the injuries related to running and that a barefoot style of running is much healthier (see this thread). Therefore, in many ways, most of us certainly are naturally born to run.

Of course, there are certainly some people that have genetic predispositions that make running difficult, but they are BY FAR the minority. And the environment we grow up in today - with sedentary lifestyles and obesity rampant - make getting into running difficult as well. But the capacity for it is within almost all of us.

i understand what you're saying, but millions of years ago you didn't see fatties walking around and sitting around lazily either. i guess when i wrote my response, i was writing in reference to a bigger person with a higher bmi.

yes, in the caveman days, we were mostly active... because we had to be. we had to run and catch food before it either ran away or before it bled out and other predatory animals higher up the food chain claimed our kill. now, our genetic make-up/lifestyle has changed, which also can potentially cause changes in how easily you wear and tear you knees. heavier people wear their knees out more than thinner people, whether it's running, climbing stairs, or walking.

 

[brikis98]

now, our genetic make-up/lifestyle has changed, which also can potentially cause changes in how easily you wear and tear you knees.

Our lifestyle has unquestionably changed, but I doubt our genetics have changed significantly in the few thousand years since civilizations first emerged. I'd wager that the vast majority of the human population is still built for an active lifestyle - including running. Unfortunately, we also live in a world where being sedentary and obese is the norm, and I do agree with you that both of those have a negative impact on numerous aspects of health, including the joints.

heavier people wear their knees out more than thinner people, whether it's running, climbing stairs, or walking.

I'd guess this is true only if you mean "obese" when you say "heavier". If you are of a healthy bodyweight for your height, chances are your joints will handle running just fine whether you are 5'5", 130lbs or 5'10", 180lbs. However, I'm sure the same 5'10" person at 250lbs would see start seeing joint damage from running. In other words, what you are saying is an argument against obesity and not running in general. It is no secret that very heavy people should avoid high impact exercises, but if they put in the effort to lose weight, there is no reason to continue avoiding them.

 

[eits]

Thanks eits for your input...

Doesnt the human body make adjustments for this added strain? It's not like a car engine - more you use it more it wears out. It's the opposite isnt it more you use it stronger ligaments, tendons, mucles, bones become giving you happier life. Guys I know with knee issues while mostly big, ~ 250-300 lbs mid 50's x hs football player who decided to not do anything their whole life and are now paying for this "relaxation" easy going lifestyle... While anecdotal what are your thoguhts on that?

your knee biomechanics change when you become extremely obese. they become more valgus in order to distribute weight properly while walking. that change accelerates degeneration bigtime.

notice how the knee bends inwards more than normal...

the cartilage in the knee starts to flatten out and sclerosis starts to form, which is when you've got early stage oa

http://www.musculoskeletalnetwork.com/image/image_gallery?img_id=1483775&t=1257289166547

anyways, i'm still in the process of getting my master's in sports injuries and rehab... i haven't gotten to look at all the newer research about running and knees and whatnot. so, i mean, i could be way off and basing my opinion of antiquated studies and data.

personally, i don't think i'm wrong, but i don't think i was 100% right... the more i'm reading, the more it seems like runners spend less time, overall, with all their weight distributed over their knees, therefore should have less knee degeneration, which makes complete sense to me. all i was saying, though, was that there's no question that big people who run put a lot of stress on their knees and can end up doing some damage to them over time, more so than someone who was morphologically and biomechanically built to run (someone slim and naturally good running form).

 

[eits]

Our lifestyle has unquestionably changed, but I doubt our genetics have changed significantly in the few thousand years since civilizations first emerged. I'd wager that the vast majority of the human population is still built for an active lifestyle - including running. Unfortunately, we also live in a world where being sedentary and obese is the norm, and I do agree with you that both of those have a negative impact on numerous aspects of health, including the joints.


I'd guess this is true only if you mean "obese" when you say "heavier". If you are of a healthy bodyweight for your height, chances are your joints will handle running just fine whether you are 5'5", 130lbs or 5'10", 180lbs. However, I'm sure the same 5'10" person at 250lbs would see start seeing joint damage from running. In other words, what you are saying is an argument against obesity and not running in general. It is no secret that very heavy people should avoid high impact exercises, but if they put in the effort to lose weight, there is no reason to continue avoiding them.

well, i mean, what is "obese"? some people have different connotative definitions they go by. what is "heavier"? i choose to say "heavier" because it encompasses people who are obese (fat guy who's 5'8" and weighs 200) and heavier (ray rice of the baltimore ravens, 5'8" and 200 lbs). i'm saying that whether you're fat or heavy, your knees will wear out faster than someone who's slim. your chondrocytes don't regenerate at a faster rate when you're musclular. your joints know load, motion, and nutrition/hydration... that's it.

 

[eits]

It's not about the run, it's more about how you run. Deadlifts are bad for your back if you arch... squatting is bad for your knees if your foot isn't flat... benching is bad for your chest if you bounce the barbell... biking is bad for your head if you don't wear a helmet.


So understandably, running is bad for you if you do it wrong. The thing with running is that there are a lot more thing that you can do wrong than any of the things listed above.

yup

 

[Zebo]

well, i mean, what is "obese"? some people have different connotative definitions they go by. what is "heavier"? i choose to say "heavier" because it encompasses people who are obese (fat guy who's 5'8" and weighs 200) and heavier (ray rice of the baltimore ravens, 5'8" and 200 lbs). i'm saying that whether you're fat or heavy, your knees will wear out faster than someone who's slim. your chondrocytes don't regenerate at a faster rate when you're musclular. your joints know load, motion, and nutrition/hydration... that's it.

I can see that however like I said Mr Skinny needs 12 miles to be getting a workout. Ray Lewis not only couldn't do 12 mi he only needs 3-4 a day to get same workout due to his mass. Miles saved knees saved no?

Perfect example is my buddy running who like 150. Takes him a mile or two to even get in zone. I get there after 2000 feet.

If he strapped 100 lbs to his back and started running he'd be there in 500 ft probably.

 

[Zebo]

your knee biomechanics change when you become extremely obese. they become more valgus in order to distribute weight properly while walking. that change accelerates degeneration bigtime.
::snip:::.

Very interesting... Thanks again.

 

[eits]

I can see that however like I said Mr Skinny needs 12 miles to be getting a workout. Ray Lewis not only couldn't do 12 mi he only needs 3-4 a day to get same workout due to his mass. Miles saved knees saved no?

Perfect example is my buddy running who like 150. Takes him a mile or two to even get in zone. I get there after 2000 feet.

If he strapped 100 lbs to his back and started running he'd be there in 500 ft probably.

what happens when he stops running? does he just float? no, he walks, thereby putting more load on his knees than running would.

 

[InflatableBuddha]

the study is assuming that people have a healthy bmi to begin with. the average american does not.

You're correct that obesity has a negative effect on people's knees (OA, degeneration, etc.) I'm not disputing that.

The question though, is whether the activity of running causes or accelerates knee problems. I've provided a study that suggests it doesn't. If you find a study which suggests that running does cause problems, or a study which involves obese runners (or people who were obese, then lost weight) then I'm happy to look at that.

Honestly though, I doubt you'll find a study with obese runners. For obvious reasons, obese (even overweight) people have numerous other physical limitations that would prevent them from running any reasonable distance. Thus, how could you conduct a long-term study with obese patients who run regularly? Not going to happen.

also, as for the knee x-rays, you asked why you'd look at your knee unless you're having knee pain. that's a somewhat flawed model of thinking, in my opinion. for example, why get a mammogram unless you find a lump? why have a prostate exam or colonoscopy unless you start pooping blood and have low back pain? why go to the dentist at all if you don't have a toothache?

I understand your thinking here. Current medical research suggests that I can prevent future problems by having regular dental checkups, eye exams, etc. so I do those. I'll get regular prostate exams once I turn 40, and I would get mammograms if I were female.

But as this thread demonstrates, the research on running and knee issues is mixed at best. There isn't a recommendation to get regular knee x-rays if you run regularly and from my own research I don't see a need to, so I don't.

and i know what runner's knee is. it's still a function of the knee complex and they call it runner's knee/patellofemoral pain syndrome/patellar tracking disorder/chondromalacia patellae/etc. because it's more common in runner's than the average guy/girl.

Yes, runner's knee is more common in runners. But keep in mind that many runners don't do the recommended strengthening exercises which can prevent runner's knee or alleviate symptoms. I'd guess that's why patellofemoral pain syndrome is so common, and why it's been given the name "runner's knee".

This is in contrast to general knee degeneration, which it is hypothesized can occur from accumulated running, regardless of preventative strengthening exercises.

 

[brikis98]

well, i mean, what is "obese"? some people have different connotative definitions they go by. what is "heavier"? i choose to say "heavier" because it encompasses people who are obese (fat guy who's 5'8" and weighs 200) and heavier (ray rice of the baltimore ravens, 5'8" and 200 lbs). i'm saying that whether you're fat or heavy, your knees will wear out faster than someone who's slim. your chondrocytes don't regenerate at a faster rate when you're musclular. your joints know load, motion, and nutrition/hydration... that's it.

There is little doubt that as bodyweight increases, the impact forces on your joints will as well. However, simply having more impact force doesn't automatically mean you get injured. Joints have a certain tolerance for impact: as long as the force remains below some value X, the joints are able to regenerate and remain healthy. The exact value of X depends on genetics and training, as joints, like muscles, can adapt and get stronger.

Therefore, for each person there is a bodyweight range which keeps the impact forces less than that person's magical X value. This means that a 200lb runner could have knees just as healthy as 130lb runner. Of course, at some point, the bodyweight becomes too high and the X threshold is crossed. How much is "too heavy" varies from individual to individual, but if I had to guess at some number for an entire population, I'd say a BMI > 30 (classified as obese) is likely a warning sign that running might be bad for the joints.

I'd also add another key factor: an even more important comparison is not between the joint health of a 130lb runner and a 200lb runner, but rather a 200lb runner and a 200lb non-runner. The studies I linked to earlier showed no difference between the joint health of runners and non runners, but as far as I know, they didn't break the results down by bodyweight. It's a shame, as it would be interesting to see that.

 

[Zebo]

Every single NFL line backer has BMI above 30 and runs their tails off and thier knee problems if they have them are invariably hyper-extensions or other blunt trauma not from running. Course they retire by 32 or so. It's really too bad there is no long term studies by mass.

But then again from what I know of big guys they like to do what comes natural, lift weights, not run - so sample size may be very small. I know I'm the largest olderman running around park. It's fugly too compared the Ryan Hall types lapping me.

 

[alkemyst]

Every single NFL line backer has BMI above 30 and runs their tails off and thier knee problems if they have them are invariably hyper-extensions or other blunt trauma not from running. Course they retire by 32 or so. It's really too bad there is no long term studies by mass.

But then again from what I know of big guys they like to do what comes natural, lift weights, not run - so sample size may be very small. I know I'm the largest olderman running around park. It's fugly too compared the Ryan Hall types lapping me.

many ex-athletes in general develop knee and joint problems though.

Also almost all are genetically gifted.

Running is a problem for many as they age, there is no debating that. I am not sure what the goal of these posts are other than to paint over it with fairy tales.

For those that have issues with running they can bike. Hell, some people need recumbent bikes even.

 

[brikis98]

Every single NFL line backer has BMI above 30 and runs their tails off and thier knee problems if they have them are invariably hyper-extensions or other blunt trauma not from running.

BMI is only useful to look at averages amongst large groups of people. It is quite useless on an individual basis, as can be seen by your NFL player example. That is why I said in my post "if I had to guess at some number for an entire population, I'd say a BMI > 30..." The "average" person is not an NFL player and if they have a BMI > 30, there is a very good chance they are obese and out of shape enough that running is more likely to damage their joints.

 

[DAPUNISHER]

I can see that however like I said Mr Skinny needs 12 miles to be getting a workout. Ray Lewis not only couldn't do 12 mi he only needs 3-4 a day to get same workout due to his mass. Miles saved knees saved no?

Perfect example is my buddy running who like 150. Takes him a mile or two to even get in zone. I get there after 2000 feet.

If he strapped 100 lbs to his back and started running he'd be there in 500 ft probably.

I gave up running last summer. When I was though, my buddy that is 6' 155ish, would just completely dust me. Or if he ran with me, not even have to work.

So, the the time he trash talked it because he was feeling his oats, I chided him for being a relative weakling that hits like a little girl. He defensively blurted out how it was only due to how much bigger I am, so I just gave him the look. That ShimTFU.

 

[eits]

You're correct that obesity has a negative effect on people's knees (OA, degeneration, etc.) I'm not disputing that.

The question though, is whether the activity of running causes or accelerates knee problems. I've provided a study that suggests it doesn't. If you find a study which suggests that running does cause problems, or a study which involves obese runners (or people who were obese, then lost weight) then I'm happy to look at that.

Honestly though, I doubt you'll find a study with obese runners. For obvious reasons, obese (even overweight) people have numerous other physical limitations that would prevent them from running any reasonable distance. Thus, how could you conduct a long-term study with obese patients who run regularly? Not going to happen.[q]

http://www.jrheum.com/subscribers/04/04supp/2.html
also, it's one of those "what came first, chicken or egg" kinds of things with the knee oa and obese people running. just doing a brief google search to see what i could find out there, i see lots of statistics about obesity being linked to knee oa, but nothing about obese people running long distances being linked to oa. i would image that it wouldn't matter... obesity being linked to oa is obesity being linked to oa, running or not.

[q]I understand your thinking here. Current medical research suggests that I can prevent future problems by having regular dental checkups, eye exams, etc. so I do those. I'll get regular prostate exams once I turn 40, and I would get mammograms if I were female.

But as this thread demonstrates, the research on running and knee issues is mixed at best. There isn't a recommendation to get regular knee x-rays if you run regularly and from my own research I don't see a need to, so I don't.[/q]
that's because, to the average person, it's a waste of medical dollars. however, to an elite athlete, it's preventive and precautionary. everyone has teeth, so they say "get your teeth checked"... every male has a prostate, so they say "get your prostate checked"... every female has breasts, so they say "get your mammogram". they don't say "if you're a runner, make sure you get your knees, feet, and low back checked"... it's just not that big an issue and such a small percentage of the population is actually active enough to worry about it. they don't tell obese people to get things checked because what's the point? it's just a natural progression of their obesity to have bad knees... why bother?

this country wastes so much money on sick care that they don't even worry about people's health care. health care should be just that... caring about peoples' health and making sure they don't get sick... preventive measures and patient education is what it should be all about... not "i only go to the doctor when something's wrong". it's a silly way of looking at it. the government doesn't care for what keeps people healthy. if someone didn't know there was a looming problem that would cause major problems down the road if they didn't start treatment right away, why would they take any action at all? that's how money is made, i suppose... letting people unknowingly destroy themselves to the point where they need to spend lots of money and time to try and fix it when they could have spent less time and money overall if they dealt with it earlier on...

but i digress...

[q]Yes, runner's knee is more common in runners. But keep in mind that many runners don't do the recommended strengthening exercises which can prevent runner's knee or alleviate symptoms. I'd guess that's why patellofemoral pain syndrome is so common, and why it's been given the name "runner's knee".

This is in contrast to general knee degeneration, which it is hypothesized can occur from accumulated running, regardless of preventative strengthening exercises.

there are studies out there that suggest that improper muscle strength and biomechanics is what attributes to knee oa, not weight. it's just that, typically, obese people have weaker muscles and instable joint planes, which leads to the oa. strengthening muscles and having the joint be stable decreases the risk of oa, regardless of weight (according to one study i read).

 

[eits]

There is little doubt that as bodyweight increases, the impact forces on your joints will as well. However, simply having more impact force doesn't automatically mean you get injured. Joints have a certain tolerance for impact: as long as the force remains below some value X, the joints are able to regenerate and remain healthy. The exact value of X depends on genetics and training, as joints, like muscles, can adapt and get stronger.

Therefore, for each person there is a bodyweight range which keeps the impact forces less than that person's magical X value. This means that a 200lb runner could have knees just as healthy as 130lb runner. Of course, at some point, the bodyweight becomes too high and the X threshold is crossed. How much is "too heavy" varies from individual to individual, but if I had to guess at some number for an entire population, I'd say a BMI > 30 (classified as obese) is likely a warning sign that running might be bad for the joints.

I'd also add another key factor: an even more important comparison is not between the joint health of a 130lb runner and a 200lb runner, but rather a 200lb runner and a 200lb non-runner. The studies I linked to earlier showed no difference between the joint health of runners and non runners, but as far as I know, they didn't break the results down by bodyweight. It's a shame, as it would be interesting to see that.

yup

 

[Zebo]

I gave up running last summer. When I was though, my buddy that is 6' 155ish, would just completely dust me. Or if he ran with me, not even have to work.

So, the the time he trash talked it because he was feeling his oats, I chided him for being a relative weakling that hits like a little girl. He defensively blurted out how it was only due to how much bigger I am, so I just gave him the look. That ShimTFU.

Sup Mark... Why'd you quit brudda? It's definitely murder that's what these scronymorphs don't understand who sail around effortlessly. I've been doing this almost 10 years and never gets 'easy' and I go 6x a week. OTOH I can lift a house. Hadnt worked out in a dozen years and this winter did 225 x 15 bench, as a one off, easy. But that aint shit compared to back in da day. Different strokes.

Anyway Alkemist. Questions are simple.
Does big guys knees suffere inordinatly when running to small guys?
Don't we have to run way less to get same exercise due to24/7 maintainence of more muscle mass and moving more mass saving knees instead?

Lots of good answers so far there is just no study yet on runner mass.

 

[InflatableBuddha]

there are studies out there that suggest that improper muscle strength and biomechanics is what attributes to knee oa, not weight. it's just that, typically, obese people have weaker muscles and instable joint planes, which leads to the oa. strengthening muscles and having the joint be stable decreases the risk of oa, regardless of weight (according to one study i read).

Yep, I can definitely understand this. Improper muscle strength (stabilizing muscles) would contribute to improper knee tracking, and thus OA. And yes, obese people would typically have such weaker musculature.

This would seem to support brikis' argument (sorry if it's already been stated; I haven't read the entire thread), that a muscular 200 lb athlete can withstand the knee impact from running much better than a sedentary 200 lb person. The muscular strength rather than the weight, is the crucial factor.

 

[InflatableBuddha]

It's definitely murder that's what these scronymorphs don't understand who sail around effortlessly. I've been doing this almost 10 years and never gets 'easy' and I go 6x a week. OTOH I can lift a house. Hadnt worked out in a dozen years and this winter did 225 x 15 bench. Different strokes.

Scrawnymorphs? Hey, just because it "looks" easier doesn't mean we aren't working hard too. We're just running more efficiently. There are purposely hard days and easy days, and sometimes even the easy days feel tough if you're tired or doing a lot of mileage.

That said, I respect you lifters. I've incorporated squats and bench, among other exercises, into my routine at various points over the years, and it is tough. Still, I do it because it benefits my running.

Different athletes excel in different disciplines, although diversification is helpful, that's all.

 

[Zebo]

LOL it's all hard for me. I don't go by speed or mileage or anything else but HRM 155-163 BPM for 40 minutes in that zone. Some days I'm slower (especially after poker night if you know what I mean) somedays faster but HR is my guide to if I'm working or not.

Yeah I''ve long held a theory mesos need more time on track, ectos need more time in gym for proper balance. Unfortunately we do what comes easier..path of least resistance and all that.