Running bad on joints and other questions.

[Zebo]

A older gentleman I play golf sometimes with today said "You shouldnt be running because your joints get weakened over time." He also said "especially w/ big guys like you knees won't survive" Any medical evidence as to these two statements?

Sounds like total BS to me because a) my dad is 72, 6'2" and 240 and has been running 3-4 miles since he's been 40 b) I have been running almost 10 years and no problems and I'm a couple inches taller & five more pounds.

Here is my thinking on it- maybe one advantage to being heavier is you don't have to run as much. For example another guy I know about 5'8" 150 literally runs 12-15 miles to stay in shape, something impossible for me I go between 4-5 - he's always making snide little comments like "pick it up Zebo" to which I retort "strap 100 lbs on your back and lets see who faster" his knees certainly would break apart then. Anyway - don't you think he's abusing his body way more each and every day?

 

[ElFenix]

heal striking is bad for you. run the way evolution made your body work and you'll be much better off.

 

[vi edit]

I think the evidence is actually quite the contrary. Impact exercise actually strengthens bones and joints...to a point. A study came out just the other day that said running into your 70's was perfectly acceptable. If you've had a knee replacement it's likely not advisable.

When it comes to running I think it's more of a function of form over anything else. When fat/out of shape people try to run it's sloppy looking jog. Their arms are flailing all over the place, their knees take an unnecessary amount of straing trying to correct bad form, ect. The faster you run the tighter your form gets and you put less stress on your body since everything is humming along. And as a perk you burn more calories in that shorter, high intensity session so you might actually be putting less wear on your body overall.

It's a bit chicken & egg...you can't run fast if you don't start slow. But you can offset that a bit by getting yourself into better shape first with biking/elipticals/ect before trying to run.

 

[eits]

it's not bs. running is bad on your joints. there's no doubt about it. if you were natually born to run (have proper form, great weight distribution, small frame, etc), then it's not that bad. the bigger you are, the worse it is on you. it's not rocket science, really... it's common sense.

pitching is bad for shoulders. using a mouse without a mousepad is bad for wrists. sitting in bad posture is bad for your low back. etc. these are all things that are kinda just wear and tear injuries... no different than knees.

 

[eits]

I think the evidence is actually quite the contrary. Impact exercise actually strengthens bones and joints...to a point. A study came out just the other day that said running into your 70's was perfectly acceptable. If you've had a knee replacement it's likely not advisable.

When it comes to running I think it's more of a function of form over anything else. When fat/out of shape people try to run it's sloppy looking jog. Their arms are flailing all over the place, their knees take an unnecessary amount of straing trying to correct bad form, ect. The faster you run the tighter your form gets and you put less stress on your body since everything is humming along. And as a perk you burn more calories in that shorter, high intensity session so you might actually be putting less wear on your body overall.

It's a bit chicken & egg...you can't run fast if you don't start slow. But you can offset that a bit by getting yourself into better shape first with biking/elipticals/ect before trying to run.

to add to what vi edit said, the faster you run, the less you wear out your knees because that's just how physics works. the shock and load that your knee has to distribute happens faster, therefore not as much damage can happen. it's kinda like a wide receiver colliding with another player's lower legs when he catches the ball. in slow-mo, it looks like it could have really hurt or torn something, but most of the time, it didn't hurt at all... they just get up and run back to the huddle. now, what about the linemen who end up tearing an mcl or acl... you see it on replay and someone else rolled over their shin or something... a relatively slow injury. that dude's out for the season. the faster the strike, the less it hurts. also, the faster you run a certain distance, the less repetitions or strides of stress you've put on your knees.

 

[ZOOYUKA]

Obesity has blown out more knees than running ever will.

 

[eits]

Obesity has blown out more knees than running ever will.

yup, because there's a lot more load and more strides in daily life.

 

[ichy]

My father has been running several times per week for as long as I can remember, and he's in his 50s now with no serious issues. Then again, he's short & scrawny so the "big buy" part wouldn't apply to him anyways.

I have an ankle that's still twitchy after I broke it last last August, so I try to alternate. I run once or twice per week & work out on an elliptical machine on other days. I figure that way I still get good cardio exercise and I'm going easy on the ankle.

 

[Bulldog13]

When I run on the treadmill I get bad knee and ankle pain. When I use the elliptical I get intermittent very mild knee pain.

Elliptical all the way.

Definately get a nice pair of running shoes, I got the ASICS Gel Nimbus 9 vs my regular Nike cross trainer and the reduction in pain is amazing.

 

[McWatt]

to add to what vi edit said, the faster you run, the less you wear out your knees because that's just how physics works. the shock and load that your knee has to distribute happens faster, therefore not as much damage can happen.

As a physicist, I'd like to point out that's not how physics works. Undergoing the same impact energy in a shorter period of time doesn't make it less energetic.

A faster stride rate, however, does reduce the impact of each stride because there's less time spent in free fall with gravity acting upon your mass between impacts.

 

[InflatableBuddha]

I think the evidence is actually quite the contrary. Impact exercise actually strengthens bones and joints...to a point. A study came out just the other day that said running into your 70's was perfectly acceptable. If you've had a knee replacement it's likely not advisable.

When it comes to running I think it's more of a function of form over anything else. When fat/out of shape people try to run it's sloppy looking jog. Their arms are flailing all over the place, their knees take an unnecessary amount of straing trying to correct bad form, ect. The faster you run the tighter your form gets and you put less stress on your body since everything is humming along. And as a perk you burn more calories in that shorter, high intensity session so you might actually be putting less wear on your body overall.

It's a bit chicken & egg...you can't run fast if you don't start slow. But you can offset that a bit by getting yourself into better shape first with biking/elipticals/ect before trying to run.

I read an article the other day that referenced that study. Over a period of 12 years, runners who averaged 40 miles per week showed no greater stress on their knees than runners who averaged 20 miles per week. I should try to find a link.

Anecdotally, running is not bad on your knees. I am almost 27, and I've run about 23,000km (including workouts and races) over the past 13 years. I've had my share of injuries, but never a single knee problem. Then again, I am lightweight and I run at a fairly fast pace, so each footstrike has less overall impact than it would for a heavier runner.

My father is 57, and ran varsity track for a number of years, then recreationally up until a few years ago (back injury from another sport). He has logged about 65,000km in his lifetime and has never had a knee injury.

 

[InflatableBuddha]

As a physicist, I'd like to point out that's not how physics works. Undergoing the same impact energy in a shorter period of time doesn't make it less energetic.

A faster stride rate, however, does reduce the impact of each stride because there's less time spent in free fall with gravity acting upon your mass between impacts.

Thanks for pointing this out. Faster runners actually use more footstrikes than recreational runners (180 per minute vs. 150) but since their cadence is faster, the impact on the ground for each strike is much shorter and thus less forceful.

 

[eits]

As a physicist, I'd like to point out that's not how physics works. Undergoing the same impact energy in a shorter period of time doesn't make it less energetic.

A faster stride rate, however, does reduce the impact of each stride because there's less time spent in free fall with gravity acting upon your mass between impacts.

is it the same impact? i don't think it is. i think there's less impact because not as much time is being taken during the impacts when you're running.

i may have not explained it as well as i could have... i just remember learning about it in physics and again in biomechanics a long time ago. my memory is probably be off.

 

[eits]

Anecdotally, running is not bad on your knees. I am almost 27, and I've run about 23,000km (including workouts and races) over the past 13 years. I've had my share of injuries, but never a single knee problem. Then again, I am lightweight and I run at a fairly fast pace, so each footstrike has less overall impact than it would for a heavier runner.

you were naturally born to run... just like your dad. most people will develop some sort of degenerative changes in their knees or runner's knee. did either of you ever get x-rayed? they might show signs of wear and tear that you just haven't felt symptoms of yet.

 

[Murloc]

for everything there is a limit.
humans were made to run in the savanna, but they are tall and slim.
Vikings aren't made to run, but resist the cold, I think.

This means that doing something will be helpful, but you don't have to overdo it.
If you are heavy I think that the limit is lowered, so just pay attention.

Not running at all is bad too because you get fat.

 

[darkxshade]

using a mouse without a mousepad is bad for wrists.

Wat? How? I've never used a mousepad in over a decade. The fleshy part of my palm IS my mousepad.

 

[InflatableBuddha]

you were naturally born to run... just like your dad. most people will develop some sort of degenerative changes in their knees or runner's knee. did either of you ever get x-rayed? they might show signs of wear and tear that you just haven't felt symptoms of yet.

Well, as I said, I've had other issues over the years (ITB syndrome, stress fractures, achilles tendinitis once, etc.) With better stretching and strengthening I seem to be less injury prone now than when I was younger. I have running friends my age who have run even more mileage without getting ANY injuries, which is really rare.

You are right that I do have a natural runner's build, as does my dad, but I'm not biomechanically perfect (I need to use orthotics).

No, I haven't had a knee x-ray, nor has my dad. Why would I get one unless I'm having knee pain?

Also, knee problems and runner's knee are different. The latter is generally caused by weak quadriceps, hamstrings or glute muscles, which allow the knee to track improperly. Doing strengthening exercises such as squats and hamstring curls usually fixes the problem.

Here's a study about distance running and knee osteoarthritis:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2556152/

Results
Most subjects showed little initial radiographic OA (6.7% of runners and 0 controls); however, by the end of the study runners did not have more prevalent OA (20 vs 32%, p =0.25) nor more cases of severe OA (2.2% vs 9.4%, p=0.21) than did controls. Regression models found higher initial BMI, initial radiographic damage, and greater time from initial radiograph to be associated with worse radiographic OA at the final assessment; no significant associations were seen with gender, education, previous knee injury, or mean exercise time.

 

[Zebo]

I think the evidence is actually quite the contrary. Impact exercise actually strengthens bones and joints...to a point. A study came out just the other day that said running into your 70's was perfectly acceptable. If you've had a knee replacement it's likely not advisable.

When it comes to running I think it's more of a function of form over anything else. When fat/out of shape people try to run it's sloppy looking jog. Their arms are flailing all over the place, their knees take an unnecessary amount of straing trying to correct bad form, ect. The faster you run the tighter your form gets and you put less stress on your body since everything is humming along. And as a perk you burn more calories in that shorter, high intensity session so you might actually be putting less wear on your body overall.

It's a bit chicken & egg...you can't run fast if you don't start slow. But you can offset that a bit by getting yourself into better shape first with biking/elipticals/ect before trying to run.

I don't know if I have good form. I ran 100 and 200 and 400 relay in HS so I suppose I know how to run but one thing my coach told me a long time ago was run on your toes. Looks funny makes calves huge but I think research has now confirmed that's the way to go. My pace is 4-5 miles in 40 minutes depends how I feel. I use a HRM so it tells me when to speed up or slow down.

 

[Zebo]

When I run on the treadmill I get bad knee and ankle pain. When I use the elliptical I get intermittent very mild knee pain.

Elliptical all the way.

Definately get a nice pair of running shoes, I got the ASICS Gel Nimbus 9 vs my regular Nike cross trainer and the reduction in pain is amazing.

No way I'll workout inside. too boring plus I get motion sick on wife's treadmill

Never had ankle or knees pain. One issue I do have is I had a broken compound fracture of tibia and fibula about 20 years ago. The tibia got a rod, since taken out, fibula never lined quite right and bothers me sometimes but I deal with it for the health benefits running gives. Another issue is heel spurs if i come down too flat. Some guys go barefoot or use these so I'm not sure running shoes matter...some think they are a detriment!!

I use New Balance 1063's however....

 

[brikis98]

it's not bs. running is bad on your joints. there's no doubt about it.

There is plenty of doubt about it. For example, check out the following articles:

From
Is Running Bad for Your Knees? Maybe Not

"In a well-known long-term study conducted at Stanford University, researchers tracked nearly 1,000 runners (active members of a running club) and nonrunners (healthy adults who didn't have an intensive exercise regimen) for 21 years [...] When the Stanford team tabulated the data, published in the Archives of Internal Medicine in 2008, it found that the runners' knees were no more or less healthy than the nonrunners' knees. And It didn't seem to matter how much the runners ran."

"Australian researchers writing in the journal Arthritis and Rheumatism found that people who exercised vigorously had thicker and healthier knee cartilage than their sedentary peers."

From The Benefits of Running

"A 2006 study conducted at Germany's University of Heidelberg looked at the incidence of OA among elite marathon runners. After comparing 20 former elite German marathoners with a control group of nonrunners of the same age, gender, and body mass index, the researchers found that the marathoners did not have a higher risk of OA of the knee."

if you were natually born to run (have proper form, great weight distribution, small frame, etc), then it's not that bad. the bigger you are, the worse it is on you. it's not rocket science, really... it's common sense.

If we are going to use common sense, I'd argue that your idea that people are not "naturally born to run" is a pile of BS. Go back a few thousand years (a blink in evolutionary terms) and every human most likely ran as part of their day to day life. There is lots of research (see How Running Made Us Human) and anecdotal evidence (see Born to Run) that shows we are uniquely well adapted to running. There are also many studies that show that it is actually shoes/sneakers that cause many of the injuries related to running and that a barefoot style of running is much healthier (see this thread). Therefore, in many ways, most of us certainly are naturally born to run.

Of course, there are certainly some people that have genetic predispositions that make running difficult, but they are BY FAR the minority. And the environment we grow up in today - with sedentary lifestyles and obesity rampant - make getting into running difficult as well. But the capacity for it is within almost all of us.

 

[Zebo]

it's not bs. running is bad on your joints. there's no doubt about it. if you were natually born to run (have proper form, great weight distribution, small frame, etc), then it's not that bad. the bigger you are, the worse it is on you. it's not rocket science, really... it's common sense.

pitching is bad for shoulders. using a mouse without a mousepad is bad for wrists. sitting in bad posture is bad for your low back. etc. these are all things that are kinda just wear and tear injuries... no different than knees.

Thanks eits for your input...

Doesnt the human body make adjustments for this added strain? It's not like a car engine - more you use it more it wears out. It's the opposite isnt it more you use it stronger ligaments, tendons, mucles, bones become giving you happier life. Guys I know with knee issues while mostly big, ~ 250-300 lbs mid 50's x hs football player who decided to not do anything their whole life and are now paying for this "relaxation" easy going lifestyle... While anecdotal what are your thoguhts on that?

 

[alkemyst]

The main problems people have with running is being too overwieght, running on concrete or worse, picking the wrong shoes, and not running properly.

If I run on concrete after about 3-5 miles 3x a week I am in pain. On asphalt I can double that and be fine.

Take the time to see a podiatrist (hell shoe stores are offering this service now) and get your gait/movement evaluated and your class of shoe. Things like shoedog.com are helpful.

Don't skimp on shoes and know when it's time to replace them (usually way before the 'tread' is worn out). When I am running regularly about 3 months is when I move my running shoes to yard duty.

 

[Zebo]

Well, as I said, I've had other issues over the years (ITB syndrome, stress fractures, achilles tendinitis once, etc.) With better stretching and strengthening I seem to be less injury prone now than when I was younger. I have running friends my age who have run even more mileage without getting ANY injuries, which is really rare.

You are right that I do have a natural runner's build, as does my dad, but I'm not biomechanically perfect (I need to use orthotics).

No, I haven't had a knee x-ray, nor has my dad. Why would I get one unless I'm having knee pain?

Also, knee problems and runner's knee are different. The latter is generally caused by weak quadriceps, hamstrings or glute muscles, which allow the knee to track improperly. Doing strengthening exercises such as squats and hamstring curls usually fixes the problem.

Here's a study about distance running and knee osteoarthritis:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2556152/

Good post thanks! So you're saying I should lift weihts too in order to prevent injury? I don't touch weights I'm too big already and have body type who mearly looks at them and gains 2" on bicepts Keep in mind I was a 320 lb man at one time and still didn't look fat according to people and wore a 38" waist..I was a fat body heartt attack waiting to happen but being tall hides a lot. Seriously, would love to get down 200 but I don't think it's possible and weight lifting will just go the opposite direction I'm trying to achive.. My Dad OTOH said he started losing muscle mass at 60 so he works out to maintain.

 

[darkxshade]

It's not about the run, it's more about how you run. Deadlifts are bad for your back if you arch... squatting is bad for your knees if your foot isn't flat... benching is bad for your chest if you bounce the barbell... biking is bad for your head if you don't wear a helmet.


So understandably, running is bad for you if you do it wrong. The thing with running is that there are a lot more thing that you can do wrong than any of the things listed above.

 

[Zebo]

It's a bit chicken & egg...you can't run fast if you don't start slow. But you can offset that a bit by getting yourself into better shape first with biking/elipticals/ect before trying to run.

Couldnt yoy just go 3/4 speed then when HR gets to 85% walk, then when HRM starts beeping you're going too slow, 3/4 again and so on?

That's about what I did. Hell when i first started a brisk walk would send me in zone, that's how out of shape I was and an alcoholic to boot.

Then about a month later I was able to run walk intervals.

Then about 3 months later I could run full interval.