Rumsfeld

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PsharkJF

Senior member
Jul 12, 2004
653
0
0
The whole "army you have" thing makes sense if this were a defensive war, not an offensive one. I personally am incredulous that an entire administration condones a (its) lack of preparedness by making it seem that they are fighting a defensive war. We invaded and are occupying Iraq. Therefore, we are the attacker.

Personally, I believe, as most of us true leftists do (not the wannabe Left, mind you. The "anybody but Bush crowd = false Leftists), that our declared, albeit invisible war against terrorists does not involve our army. It involves marginalizing the terrorist ideology to a point in which they have no voice; no mind willing to listen to them. Then, and only then, will they truly be defeated.

I believe we had this opportunity after September 11. The entire world realized that we had been attacked by a threat unlike anything ever seen before. The entire world reached out in many ways to help us, akin to the tsunami efforts of today.

And we blew it. Big time. Instead of throwing water on the fire, we threw oil on it.

In short, we invaded Iraq.

We gave their viewpoint legitimacy, in the eyes of the world. "The US really is an imperialist nation," they say, "seeking resources from soverign nations." "They openly defy the beliefs of the world - therefore, they must be fought by any means and ways necessary."

Now that we have Iraq, as much as it pains me to see US troops dying in a war they should not have fought in the first place, leaving would only fan the flames more. Admitting what we did was a mistake, however, would fan them much less, if at all.

Admitting mistakes is what this administration doesn't do.

We are fighting in the wrong arena. We are fighting in cities in towns and countries instead of fighting for minds. Because of this, we are losing.
 
Feb 10, 2000
30,029
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Originally posted by: BannedTroll

OK. Just asking. I didn't realize JAG was so involved in combat operations and your opinion was any more valid than his.

We are indeed directly involved in targeting and weapons systems selection. JAGs are at least occasionally killed in combat as well. I feel that as a person with 6 years of military service, which ended just last week, my opinion on matters related to the military is not necessarily more valid than someone who hasn't served, but it at least has the benefit of being based on recent, firsthand intel, and my legal background has relevance here as well.

More germane to this discussion, JAGs are the ones who are paid to interpret and advise on the law of war, something the Bush administration has gone through great machinations to avoid honoring (hence the direct efforts by a number of retired military leaders, including JAGs, to block the appointment of Bush's general counsel, Gonzales, as Attorney General). These violations led directly to the Abu Ghraib scandal, which Scty Rumsfeld completely failed to warn the President about - he should have been fired for this alone IMO.

One trait of President Bush's that I admire, and I'm being sincere, is his loyalty - that is a rare quality in a modern politician. Unfortunately he is loyal to a fault, even when it involves a loser like Rumsfeld, who has totally lost the public's trust.

This thread really should have been in P&N, and it's a reminder to me why I don't go there anymore.
 

Gothgar

Lifer
Sep 1, 2004
13,429
1
0
Jon Stewart doesn't own anyone but himself, he is stupid, played out and very very unfunny...
 

Originally posted by: Gothgar
Jon Stewart doesn't own anyone but himself, he is stupid, played out and very very unfunny...

Although i think this thread belongs in the P&N playpen, you are a moron for saying John Stewart is an idiot. Go back to playing world of warcraft while he makes millions with a unique show. Just because you dont agree with someone doesnt mean they are stupid.
 

moshquerade

No Lifer
Nov 1, 2001
61,504
12
56
Originally posted by: buck
Originally posted by: Gothgar
Jon Stewart doesn't own anyone but himself, he is stupid, played out and very very unfunny...

Although i think this thread belongs in the P&N playpen, you are a moron for saying John Stewart is an idiot. Go back to playing world of warcraft while he makes millions with a unique show. Just because you dont agree with someone doesnt mean they are stupid.
and just because Gothgar doesn't agree with you doesn't make him a moron.

practice what you preach.

 

Gothgar

Lifer
Sep 1, 2004
13,429
1
0
Originally posted by: moshquerade
Originally posted by: buck
Originally posted by: Gothgar
Jon Stewart doesn't own anyone but himself, he is stupid, played out and very very unfunny...

Although i think this thread belongs in the P&N playpen, you are a moron for saying John Stewart is an idiot. Go back to playing world of warcraft while he makes millions with a unique show. Just because you dont agree with someone doesnt mean they are stupid.
and just because Gothgar doesn't agree with you doesn't make him a moron.

practice what you preach.

thanks moshquerade...

yeah, I don't think he is funny, I find the show very boring and unfunny... that is my opinion, just because I don't agree with you doesn't mean I am a moron, hypocrite.
 

Hammer

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
13,217
1
81
Originally posted by: DonVito
Originally posted by: BannedTroll

OK. Just asking. I didn't realize JAG was so involved in combat operations and your opinion was any more valid than his.

We are indeed directly involved in targeting and weapons systems selection. JAGs are at least occasionally killed in combat as well. I feel that as a person with 6 years of military service, which ended just last week, my opinion on matters related to the military is not necessarily more valid than someone who hasn't served, but it at least has the benefit of being based on recent, firsthand intel, and my legal background has relevance here as well.

More germane to this discussion, JAGs are the ones who are paid to interpret and advise on the law of war, something the Bush administration has gone through great machinations to avoid honoring (hence the direct efforts by a number of retired military leaders, including JAGs, to block the appointment of Bush's general counsel, Gonzales, as Attorney General). These violations led directly to the Abu Ghraib scandal, which Scty Rumsfeld completely failed to warn the President about - he should have been fired for this alone IMO.

One trait of President Bush's that I admire, and I'm being sincere, is his loyalty - that is a rare quality in a modern politician. Unfortunately he is loyal to a fault, even when it involves a loser like Rumsfeld, who has totally lost the public's trust.

This thread really should have been in P&N, and it's a reminder to me why I don't go there anymore.

don vito, as a former jag, are you familiar with article 88...
 

Aharami

Lifer
Aug 31, 2001
21,205
165
106
Originally posted by: Gothgar
Jon Stewart doesn't own anyone but himself, he is stupid, played out and very very unfunny...

hey if being stupid would make me a multi-millionaire...im all for it :roll:
 

DivideBYZero

Lifer
May 18, 2001
24,117
2
0
Originally posted by: DonVito
Originally posted by: Nik
Originally posted by: gabemcg
its still funny

Not really, no. If you understand that the question was PLANTED, and understand the REAL LIFE of the military and government funding, you wouldn't find it funny at all. But considering the fact that you do, it just proves that you're just another moron buying into twisted liberal bullsh|t.

Have a nice day.

OK, Nik, please regale us with the "real life of the military" - last I checked you'd never served. I have, for six years, and Rumsfeld is an embarrassment to any thinking American.

Now I see where Nik is coming from...
 

Originally posted by: moshquerade
Originally posted by: buck
Originally posted by: Gothgar
Jon Stewart doesn't own anyone but himself, he is stupid, played out and very very unfunny...

Although i think this thread belongs in the P&N playpen, you are a moron for saying John Stewart is an idiot. Go back to playing world of warcraft while he makes millions with a unique show. Just because you dont agree with someone doesnt mean they are stupid.
and just because Gothgar doesn't agree with you doesn't make him a moron.

practice what you preach.

You're stupid too. :)
 

Zanix

Diamond Member
Feb 11, 2003
5,568
12
81
Originally posted by: WinstonSmith
For whatever justification they come up with, it does not change we were either lied to, or they were just too stupid and impatient. And know what? Too many Americans can't face they are the same way. They have to back his actions because they have just as much blood on their hands. Oh less than Saddam to be sure, but it's still there.

Do the reasons for going to war still hold up? No WMD, etc... That seemed like the primary reason for going after them. What's the new reason we're there?
 

LLCOOLJ

Senior member
Oct 26, 2004
346
0
0
Originally posted by: Zanix
Originally posted by: WinstonSmith
For whatever justification they come up with, it does not change we were either lied to, or they were just too stupid and impatient. And know what? Too many Americans can't face they are the same way. They have to back his actions because they have just as much blood on their hands. Oh less than Saddam to be sure, but it's still there.

Do the reasons for going to war still hold up? No WMD, etc... That seemed like the primary reason for going after them. What's the new reason we're there?
To liberate those who hate us!
 

Zanix

Diamond Member
Feb 11, 2003
5,568
12
81
Originally posted by: The Lord
Originally posted by: Zanix
Originally posted by: WinstonSmith
For whatever justification they come up with, it does not change we were either lied to, or they were just too stupid and impatient. And know what? Too many Americans can't face they are the same way. They have to back his actions because they have just as much blood on their hands. Oh less than Saddam to be sure, but it's still there.

Do the reasons for going to war still hold up? No WMD, etc... That seemed like the primary reason for going after them. What's the new reason we're there?
To liberate those who hate us!



For teh serious, I'd like to hear the righties on this. I don't mean to sound agressive or "crossfire".. I haven't been paying much attention to the news and I'm courious.

Maybe the new reason would take far to long to explain in a post?




Edit: I know you guys are reading this.. c'mon.
 
Feb 10, 2000
30,029
67
91
Originally posted by: Hammer

don vito, as a former jag, are you familiar with article 88...

Indeed I am, and I am also familiar with the fact that it doesn't extend to veterans, thank God. This is part of the reason I got out, actually.
 

moshquerade

No Lifer
Nov 1, 2001
61,504
12
56
Originally posted by: buck
Originally posted by: moshquerade
Originally posted by: buck
Originally posted by: Gothgar
Jon Stewart doesn't own anyone but himself, he is stupid, played out and very very unfunny...

Although i think this thread belongs in the P&N playpen, you are a moron for saying John Stewart is an idiot. Go back to playing world of warcraft while he makes millions with a unique show. Just because you dont agree with someone doesnt mean they are stupid.
and just because Gothgar doesn't agree with you doesn't make him a moron.

practice what you preach.

You're stupid too. :)
you are a dumbass. post something worthy of reading.

 

Originally posted by: moshquerade
Originally posted by: buck
Originally posted by: moshquerade
Originally posted by: buck
Originally posted by: Gothgar
Jon Stewart doesn't own anyone but himself, he is stupid, played out and very very unfunny...

Although i think this thread belongs in the P&N playpen, you are a moron for saying John Stewart is an idiot. Go back to playing world of warcraft while he makes millions with a unique show. Just because you dont agree with someone doesnt mean they are stupid.
and just because Gothgar doesn't agree with you doesn't make him a moron.

practice what you preach.

You're stupid too. :)
you are a dumbass. post something worthy of reading.

That hurts me... really it does....

|--*-----------------| <---That is my give-o-sh!t-o-meter. At an all time low.
 

Connoisseur

Platinum Member
Sep 14, 2002
2,470
1
81
Save whom? Save a few lives here and there right now? Or lose a few lives here and there to save many more to come? It basically comes down to whether you believe that people in the middle east will actually continue to attack. Do we sit back and hope to defend correctly or do we push back for once and actually DO something to perhaps stop something bigger in the future? Today's society seems to have one of the biggest gaps between sides of the arguement that I've ever seen or read about in recent history.

Here's where I disagree with you nik. Do you really believe that by continuing the occupation of Iraq and pounding them senseless until all the terrorists are "gone" the U.S. will be safer? From my perspective, this war only serves to increase the dislike and distrust towards the United States by other nations, especially many of the Islamic nations. I believe the US has been permanently damaged in the eyes of the international community simply by invading Iraq and that we should have focused specifically on hunting down Osama bin Laden. There are arguments that Iraq is a better place without Saddam Hussein. While this may be true, the US should not serve as police to the world. Bush's administration swung the "big stick" a bit too wildly. Instead of focusing on a task that would have been both productive and justifiable (hunt for bin Laden), we are wasting lives and money in a country that, as far as I know, has nothing to do with bin Laden or his network of terrorists. So where are we now?
A) We don't have bin Laden. He still taunts the US as well as our allies with threats of mass terrorism.
B) We've ousted a dictator from an impoverished country while turning that country into a devastated warzone. This is essentially taking the Iraqi people out of the frying pan and chucking them in the fire.

I fail to see how anybody has benefitted from the Bush adminstration and I fail to see why we need to keep so many of our soldiers in a country that doesn't even want us. If the only reason one can stipulate is "to save face", I think that's just about the most repugnant reason to cost human lives.
 

Orsorum

Lifer
Dec 26, 2001
27,631
5
81
Originally posted by: Nik
Originally posted by: DonVito
Originally posted by: Nik

I work with a man every day who joined the marines 17 years ago. He served two active, bullet-dodging, live-fire-in-the-streets tours in Desert Shield and is training the Oregon National Guard. I know what I'm talking about.

Uh, gee, with such a direct connection to the service, it's no wonder you know more than the forward-deployed GI who asked that question, or the hundreds of others who cheered at it . . .

This is one veteran who thinks the Bush administration is the most corrupt presidency, and the one most abusive to the military, in modern history. As I said before, Rumsfeld makes McNamara look like a wise genius.

I'm glad you see it that way. :roll: You seem to be the type that blindly accepts the twisted liberal half-truth bullsh|t that lots of other sheep--err, I mean people take as gospel. I'm surprised that you're so foolish having been in the service.

Get over yourself, Nik. You're smarter than this.
 

Staples

Diamond Member
Oct 28, 2001
4,953
119
106
Old.

Seems you have made some forum Republicans mad.

Poor guys, hard to love Rumsfeld after everything he has done. But why don't you guys enlist to fight in his army since you believe the cause is so great. After all how much money did we waste over looking for those WMDs? And remember. The UN was blind too when they said there were no WMDs before we invaded.

I really hate political threads. It shows many idiots we have here. All the guys calling people liberal sheep are just as dumb. They just believe the opposite.
 

gutharius

Golden Member
May 26, 2004
1,965
0
0
Originally posted by: Wanescotting
:music: Don't wanna be an american idiot...:music:

Just wonder how much you and I have in common at times... It's really unsettling at times.
 

Orsorum

Lifer
Dec 26, 2001
27,631
5
81
Originally posted by: Staples
Old.

Seems you have made some forum Republicans mad.

Poor guys, hard to love Rumsfeld after everything he has done. But why don't you guys enlist to fight in his army since you believe the cause is so great. After all how much money did we waste over looking for those WMDs? And remember. The UN was blind too when they said there were no WMDs before we invaded.

IIRC we stopped looking for WMDs just last week. The evidence was overwhelming that Saddam undeniably had WMD! Really! Too bad we just didn't know where to look.

BTW, I have no interest in getting involved in this drivel. Y'all are as convinced of your correctness and nothing any other can say or do will change that.

When you tie up your sense of self with that of your political affiliation, you've already lost the ability for critical thinking.

Enjoy your feces flinging, kids. :roll:

Nate
 

gutharius

Golden Member
May 26, 2004
1,965
0
0
Originally posted by: ThePresence
I don't see what serving in the military has to do with this argument. Military people are just like ordinary people and have many different opinions. It's silly to say "military people think this way or that way". Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Military people don't all think alike. They are Americans, and have different opinions as any other large group of Americans would. I served in the Israeli military, and I think Sharon is a terrible Prime Minister. That doesn't mean that most of the Israeli military agrees with me, it's just one man's opinion.

There is a difference between experienceing war first hand and advocating it and never coming close to a war first hand and advocating it. this is what Nik is doing and it is disgraceful at best,