quakefiend420
Lifer
- Aug 26, 2004
- 14,685
- 1
- 76
I think it is time for a thread lock before Nik's BS level breaks new impossible highs and ATOT has to have a public spanking to prevent the meltdown from the flamewar inspired by this thread...
IAteYourMother
Lifer
- Nov 3, 2004
- 10,491
- 22
- 81
So are you going to keep making pointless remarks trying to bank on a very poor arguments, or actually refute his arguments?
IAteYourMother
Lifer
- Nov 3, 2004
- 10,491
- 22
- 81
Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
you are truely sad. clinton and the draft? he was against the war. its morally consistent. BUSH WAS FOR THE WAR! and yet used his father and his connections to have another serve in his place. jumping ahead of others for a position he was not qualified for. what do you call that? IMMORAL by any standard. then he goes about shirking this ill gotten reprieve from duty. the man is SCUM. oh no wait,,,...he's "moral" because he talks about jesus alot!! lol... i guess we aren't so different from the middle east after all
as for the armor, rummy said it was not neededlol... and bush..ran for election saying the military was underfunded eh? so what does he do.. he gives tax cuts instead of buying armor. u idiot, they would have had armor when they needed it if he had been truthful when he stepped into office years before the conflict even started. its sad how pathetic apologists can get...
Now, tell me why these issues like armor are any different from the wars we have had before?
I would also tend to agree with Nik here... stop bringing up religion into this, it helps nothing and only makes your arguments seem childish and stupid.
IAteYourMother
Lifer
- Nov 3, 2004
- 10,491
- 22
- 81
It is not necessary to refute the arguments of a confessed idiot.
MODS PLEASE LOCK. This belongs in P&N not ATOT.
IAteYourMother
Lifer
- Nov 3, 2004
- 10,491
- 22
- 81
Perhaps....
To Nik: While I am with you on some issues, I think that you should express at least some degree of skepticism in the Administration... whether you do or not I don't know for sure, but judging by your posts, I think you put a little to much faith in the Administration.
I have no faith in this administration or any administration.. I feel the bashing to the extent it has gone on the past two years has been over the top.
You know what's sad...the fact that no one can discuss something like this while being tolerant and respectful of different points of view. This country is made up of a lot of different people with different points of view on all kinds of things. Should we all be lock step in what we think? If you have a different opinion than me you are a moron brainwashed by the liberal/right wing propaganda?
It is easier to feel attacked than to make an effort to honestly open yourself to change and different ideas. It is a fundametal human flaw, live with it or better yet learn to overcome this flaw.
I wouldn't say it was a flaw, it's simply a matter of how people discuss things. There is no reason things like this can't be discussed in a civil manner. This whole with us or against us crap is a waste of time, and throwing generalizations around is also problematic.
0roo0roo
No Lifer
- Sep 21, 2002
- 64,795
- 84
- 91
Originally posted by: digitalsm
Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
you are truely sad. clinton and the draft? he was against the war. its morally consistent. BUSH WAS FOR THE WAR! and yet used his father and his connections to have another serve in his place. jumping ahead of others for a position he was not qualified for. what do you call that? IMMORAL by any standard. then he goes about shirking this ill gotten reprieve from duty. the man is SCUM. oh no wait,,,...he's "moral" because he talks about jesus alot!! lol... i guess we aren't so different from the middle east after all
as for the armor, rummy said it was not needed
Oh this is easy to pick apart.
Draft dodging is draft dodging. Its every americans duty to come to her aid when the govt asks. As for morally consistent, I guess you consider pro-choice, anti death penalty evil vile scum because it is far far from morally consistent.
As for armor, they had plenty of vehicle armor intitially, its just as the past year and half, as replacement vehicles came in its taken time to put armor on them. And as for the infantry body armor, thats because the manufacture had problems supplying the military on time.
what your arguements come down to is that he is only a bit worse then clinton, who conservatives consider pure evil. that or "everyone does it"
thats some standard you have there.as for draft dodging. theres a big difference between dodging for moral reasons, and dodging to SAVE YOUR OWN ASS. it is morally consistent to disobey a call to fight an immoral war. it has nothing to do with abortion. bringing that up only makes it worse. one can be pro choice because they believe a fetus is not a fully human being with all the rights that come with it, and that the mother should have the choice. one can also be anti death penalty because the justice system is imperfect, and there is absolutely no deterent effect. theres nothing inconsistent there. however, if you are FOR A WAR, yet squirm your ass out of it..what value are you following? either you are a coward, or you feel that you are more important than other people, it simply comes down to saving your own ass.
as for the armor, they wouldn't have a shortage at all if he had boosted it when he got into office. the fact tnat we have a shortage now shows that we obviously did not have enough initially. on 60 minutes they showed some of the guards trucks as ones from the 50's... good god. bush ran on boosting the military, he cried crisis on the campaign trail, yet when he got into office all he did was yack about tax cuts for the rich.
Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
Originally posted by: digitalsm
Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
you are truely sad. clinton and the draft? he was against the war. its morally consistent. BUSH WAS FOR THE WAR! and yet used his father and his connections to have another serve in his place. jumping ahead of others for a position he was not qualified for. what do you call that? IMMORAL by any standard. then he goes about shirking this ill gotten reprieve from duty. the man is SCUM. oh no wait,,,...he's "moral" because he talks about jesus alot!! lol... i guess we aren't so different from the middle east after all
as for the armor, rummy said it was not needed
Oh this is easy to pick apart.
Draft dodging is draft dodging. Its every americans duty to come to her aid when the govt asks. As for morally consistent, I guess you consider pro-choice, anti death penalty evil vile scum because it is far far from morally consistent.
As for armor, they had plenty of vehicle armor intitially, its just as the past year and half, as replacement vehicles came in its taken time to put armor on them. And as for the infantry body armor, thats because the manufacture had problems supplying the military on time.
what your arguements come down to is that he is only a bit worse then clinton, who conservatives consider pure evil. that or "everyone does it"
as for draft dodging. theres a big difference between dodging for moral reasons, and dodging to SAVE YOUR OWN ASS. it is morally consistent to disobey a call to fight an immoral war. it has nothing to do with abortion. bringing that up only makes it worse. one can be pro choice because they believe a fetus is not a fully human being with all the rights that come with it, and that the mother should have the choice. one can also be anti death penalty because the justice system is imperfect, and there is absolutely no deterent effect. theres nothing inconsistent there. however, if you are FOR A WAR, yet squirm your ass out of it..what value are you following? either you are a coward, or you feel that you are more important than other people, it simply comes down to saving your own ass.
as for the armor, they wouldn't have a shortage at all if he had boosted it when he got into office. the fact tnat we have a shortage now shows that we obviously did not have enough initially. on 60 minutes they showed some of the guards trucks as ones from the 50's... good god. bush ran on boosting the military, he cried crisis on the campaign trail, yet when he got into office all he did was yack about tax cuts for the rich.
Ummm we dont have shortage of armor, we have a shortage of manpower to put the armor on. As for a 1950s truck? Uh considering military sh!t breaks down frequently I find that hard to believe. IIRC the avg military humvee avgs 10k miles at best when in duty. Maybe a 1950s designed vehicle, but it was in no means built in 1950.
As for my point, the bashing has got out of hand. Bush isnt the devil, or is he evil or immoral. Every president has their flaws. I dont think Clinton was evil or the devil, just a poor president and an even worse governor of Arkansas. Bush hasnt been a good president either but this bashing does nothing nor will it solve anything. Bush or Rumsfeild didnt cause the armor "shortage", unless you use the logic that Bush ordered the war and this caused the shortage.
As for your response on abortion/death penalty, its assine. The only morally consistent stanch is pro-life and anti-death penaly.
Its kinda like fundamentilist vegans/enviormentalists. Their life style and or actions does just as much damage to the earth/animals, but they refuse to see it.
Its quite simple, one side does one thing, and the other calls it evil and vile. When previously the roles have been switched.
Im sick of the sh!t. Bush is no worse than Clinton, and Clinton wasnt any worse than any other president. There hasnt been a "good" president, in any stretch of the imagination.
Like Ive said before politics and politicians are all about manipulating.
ThePresence
Elite Member
- Nov 19, 2001
- 27,727
- 16
- 81
I don't see what serving in the military has to do with this argument. Military people are just like ordinary people and have many different opinions. It's silly to say "military people think this way or that way". Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Military people don't all think alike. They are Americans, and have different opinions as any other large group of Americans would. I served in the Israeli military, and I think Sharon is a terrible Prime Minister. That doesn't mean that most of the Israeli military agrees with me, it's just one man's opinion.
ThePresence
Elite Member
- Nov 19, 2001
- 27,727
- 16
- 81
Some applauded, some didn't. Obviously you will only hear those applauding, not those who are not. I think most of them were applauding the soldier for having the balls to ask him the question, not so much for the content of the question. JMO.
Originally posted by: Nik
Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
right, and the guardsman was a robot and got programmed. and the cheers of agreement from the rest of em... the reporter engineered it all!!!
It was a ploy. You go to war with what you have, not wait to have everything you could possibly need and hope nothing happens before then.
LOL nice to see you can't think for yourself.
Hayabusa Rider
Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
- Jan 26, 2000
- 50,879
- 4,268
- 126
Whee!
Bush shouldn't be out of office, he and his should be in jail.
First:
"You go to to war with what you have"
No, you recognize the necessity of going to war, and the timing. This wasn't Pearl Harbor attack by Saddam. Bush shot his mouth off and WANTED this war. HE picked the timing. He could have gone down to the ranch and had another BBQ with the Chinese while people got this right. Well, no he couldnt. Having the mentality and patience of a 6 year old made us go to war. No scratch that. My six year old isn't that big a fool.
Second:
All that intel the other countries had? Mostly what are known as echos. In other words, they found out what we thought we know, then believed it. We said "AH HA! they back our claims!" Well, it has been know to happen that intel is leaked to other countries on purpose. I would not be suprised if that was the case, this being the most duplicitous administration in my lifetime (which goes back a way). In any case, there were doubts raised by some in the CIA. Many of those are ex CIA. They were heard just as loudly as the War College professor who was critical of how things were being handled. In the words of an administration official when question about that report if it's not reflecting the Presidents agenda, it's not going to be on anyones reading short list. Typical.
Third:
Clinton did the same thing, etc.
Ok, Clinton misreprested his military adventures by declaring an attack on Bosnia because they were going to attack us?
I have seen a lot of Bush supporting crap on Iraq based on the excuse du jour. I think I know why. It's the same reason the Dems didnt hammer home all these points. They gave into the masses. The same kind of people who gladly packed off Dreyfus to Devils Island. The Dems participated in this travesty, and couldnt make any claim of superiority. They weren't much better They largely went along with the ride, just like they did with the Patriot Act, just like they will do with Gonzales.
Many Americans found they weren't so invulnerable on 9/11. They were and are afraid. Note Gonzales statement before Congress, that one reason prisoners should be kept in confinement is that they could conspire to attack the guards. WTF? Like we don't have prisoners in this country who could do he same thing?
Those Terminator/Alien/Preditor with a touch of Riddick hybrids! Maybe they have friggin laser beams on their heads. Bah, what an idiotic statement. "But, but it could happen" Right, and Saddam was sitting on a pile of WMDs waiting to attack.
America the brave. Some, but I'll tell you what. Many who fire the first shot are the cowards. I count Bush among them.
For whatever justification they come up with, it does not change we were either lied to, or they were just too stupid and impatient. And know what? Too many Americans can't face they are the same way. They have to back his actions because they have just as much blood on their hands. Oh less than Saddam to be sure, but it's still there.
Bush shouldn't be out of office, he and his should be in jail.
First:
"You go to to war with what you have"
No, you recognize the necessity of going to war, and the timing. This wasn't Pearl Harbor attack by Saddam. Bush shot his mouth off and WANTED this war. HE picked the timing. He could have gone down to the ranch and had another BBQ with the Chinese while people got this right. Well, no he couldnt. Having the mentality and patience of a 6 year old made us go to war. No scratch that. My six year old isn't that big a fool.
Second:
All that intel the other countries had? Mostly what are known as echos. In other words, they found out what we thought we know, then believed it. We said "AH HA! they back our claims!" Well, it has been know to happen that intel is leaked to other countries on purpose. I would not be suprised if that was the case, this being the most duplicitous administration in my lifetime (which goes back a way). In any case, there were doubts raised by some in the CIA. Many of those are ex CIA. They were heard just as loudly as the War College professor who was critical of how things were being handled. In the words of an administration official when question about that report if it's not reflecting the Presidents agenda, it's not going to be on anyones reading short list. Typical.
Third:
Clinton did the same thing, etc.
Ok, Clinton misreprested his military adventures by declaring an attack on Bosnia because they were going to attack us?
I have seen a lot of Bush supporting crap on Iraq based on the excuse du jour. I think I know why. It's the same reason the Dems didnt hammer home all these points. They gave into the masses. The same kind of people who gladly packed off Dreyfus to Devils Island. The Dems participated in this travesty, and couldnt make any claim of superiority. They weren't much better They largely went along with the ride, just like they did with the Patriot Act, just like they will do with Gonzales.
Many Americans found they weren't so invulnerable on 9/11. They were and are afraid. Note Gonzales statement before Congress, that one reason prisoners should be kept in confinement is that they could conspire to attack the guards. WTF? Like we don't have prisoners in this country who could do he same thing?
Those Terminator/Alien/Preditor with a touch of Riddick hybrids! Maybe they have friggin laser beams on their heads. Bah, what an idiotic statement. "But, but it could happen" Right, and Saddam was sitting on a pile of WMDs waiting to attack.
America the brave. Some, but I'll tell you what. Many who fire the first shot are the cowards. I count Bush among them.
For whatever justification they come up with, it does not change we were either lied to, or they were just too stupid and impatient. And know what? Too many Americans can't face they are the same way. They have to back his actions because they have just as much blood on their hands. Oh less than Saddam to be sure, but it's still there.
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