Rumsfeld

[0roo0roo]

Originally posted by: digitalsm

Originally posted by: 0roo0roo

Originally posted by: Nik

Originally posted by: 0roo0roo

Originally posted by: Nik

Originally posted by: DonVito

Originally posted by: Nik

I work with a man every day who joined the marines 17 years ago. He served two active, bullet-dodging, live-fire-in-the-streets tours in Desert Shield and is training the Oregon National Guard. I know what I'm talking about.

Uh, gee, with such a direct connection to the service, it's no wonder you know more than the forward-deployed GI who asked that question, or the hundreds of others who cheered at it . . .

This is one veteran who thinks the Bush administration is the most corrupt presidency, and the one most abusive to the military, in modern history. As I said before, Rumsfeld makes McNamara look like a wise genius.

I'm glad you see it that way. :roll: You seem to be the type that blindly accepts the twisted liberal half-truth bullsh|t that lots of other sheep--err, I mean people take as gospel. I'm surprised that you're so foolish having been in the service.

thats rich coming from an apologist for mr never misses a chance to tell a lie wmd bush.

Oh I see it coming. So you blame bush for getting intel from Russia, Saudia Arabia, and Egypt that he had WMD's, then turning to the CIA and them shrugging going "we don't know WTF we're doing" and making an executive decision to go in?

I see. You're one of them too.

its sad. you are like a battered wife. no ability to see a never ending pattern of behavior, ever defending scumbags.

just a few from a quick search. http://bushwatch.org/bushlies.htm

And know what? You can do that with every single president the US has ever had.

what? thats some sh*tty defense you have there. and low standards to boot

every president was a draft dodger who ends up callously throwing away the lives of our service men? i wonder how much armor that tax cut woulda bought huh? only pres to cut taxes in time of war.

and yes, there is a big difference between lying about a bj and lies that get people killed.

nik defends an incompetent man...because he is of his religion thats probably pretty much it..can't argue with the faithfully blind.

 

[NikPreviousAcct]

You assume way too much about my religion, assuming I even have one anymore. You also assume too much regarding my motivations.

 

[gutharius]

Originally posted by: Nik

Originally posted by: gutharius
BUT, AGAIN! Read my words: YOU HAVE NOT SERVED. Sure your FRIENDS have, sure your "good" buddies have, sure your Grandad has, but YOU HAVE NOT. Read the definiation of lame for a description of you touting off about how much you know about the military.

When did I say that I've served and what bearing does that have on the conversation?

Thank you for proving my point. Now STFU!

 

[quakefiend420]

Originally posted by: djplayx714
Yeah after reading all this i think Nik is an idiot and DonVito is a wise man. IMHO.

funny...i'm inclined to believe the opposite

 

[digitalsm]

Originally posted by: 0roo0roo

Originally posted by: digitalsm

Originally posted by: 0roo0roo

Originally posted by: Nik

Originally posted by: 0roo0roo

Originally posted by: Nik

Originally posted by: DonVito

Originally posted by: Nik

I work with a man every day who joined the marines 17 years ago. He served two active, bullet-dodging, live-fire-in-the-streets tours in Desert Shield and is training the Oregon National Guard. I know what I'm talking about.

Uh, gee, with such a direct connection to the service, it's no wonder you know more than the forward-deployed GI who asked that question, or the hundreds of others who cheered at it . . .

This is one veteran who thinks the Bush administration is the most corrupt presidency, and the one most abusive to the military, in modern history. As I said before, Rumsfeld makes McNamara look like a wise genius.

I'm glad you see it that way. :roll: You seem to be the type that blindly accepts the twisted liberal half-truth bullsh|t that lots of other sheep--err, I mean people take as gospel. I'm surprised that you're so foolish having been in the service.

thats rich coming from an apologist for mr never misses a chance to tell a lie wmd bush.

Oh I see it coming. So you blame bush for getting intel from Russia, Saudia Arabia, and Egypt that he had WMD's, then turning to the CIA and them shrugging going "we don't know WTF we're doing" and making an executive decision to go in?

I see. You're one of them too.

its sad. you are like a battered wife. no ability to see a never ending pattern of behavior, ever defending scumbags.

just a few from a quick search. http://bushwatch.org/bushlies.htm

And know what? You can do that with every single president the US has ever had.

what? thats some sh*tty defense you have there. and low standards to boot

every president was a draft dodger who ends up callously throwing away the lives of our service men? i wonder how much armor that tax cut woulda bought huh? only pres to cut taxes in time of war.

and yes, there is a big difference between lying about a bj and lies that get people killed.

nik defends an incompetent man...because he is of his religion thats probably pretty much it..can't argue with the faithfully blind.

Lets see, Clinton lied about Kosovo, in the same vien Bush lied about Iraq. Clinton dodged the draft. Clinton went against the UN. And you were the one that brought Clinton into this. I just called every president a liar, and they have been.

As for the armor, the resources are there and have been in the process of being installed long before this grunt asked the question.

And if politicians were looking out for americans, there would be spending cuts and taxcuts.

 

[gutharius]

Originally posted by: djplayx714
Yeah after reading all this i think Nik is an idiot and DonVito is a wise man. IMHO.

 

[0roo0roo]

spare me your sixth grade michael moore logic indeed. moores got nothing on the masters of deception, of fallacy that you support.

and your motivations are irrelevant. either you are rich, immoral, and benifit financially from this administration, or you are just an intolerant idiot that hangs onto every last word from the bush propaganda machine .

 

[NikPreviousAcct]

Originally posted by: digitalsm
Lets see, Clinton lied about Kosovo, in the same vien Bush lied about Iraq. Clinton dodged the draft. Clinton went against the UN. And you were the one that brought Clinton into this. I just called every president a liar, and they have been.

As for the armor, the resources are there and have been in the process of being installed long before this grunt asked the question.

And if politicians were looking out for americans, there would be spending cuts and taxcuts.

Honestly, if they don't do their own research or look into unbias reporting (haha as if that exists) or even TRY researching to find facts like what you've posted, they're not going to listen to a post on the internet. Sad, but true.

 

[digitalsm]

Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
spare me your sixth grade michael moore logic indeed. moores got nothing on the masters of deception, of fallacy that you support.

and your motivations are irrelevant. either you are rich, immoral, and benifit financially from this administration, or you are just an intolerant idiot that hangs onto every last word from the bush propaganda machine .

Who was this directed to?

My sixth grade logic?

I have great disdain for most politicans these days. They democrat or republican, arent looking after americas best interest. They are both spending america into an early grave, irregardless of Iraq or the Tax cuts.

But you said Bush was the only one that lied and put troops in harms way. Off hand there have been 4 or 5 presidents to do that. There have also been far more corrupt presidencies.

Politics is about manipulation, always has been and always will be. You are naive idealist living in a fanstasy world if you think otherwise.

 

[NikPreviousAcct]

Originally posted by: digitalsm

Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
spare me your sixth grade michael moore logic indeed. moores got nothing on the masters of deception, of fallacy that you support.

and your motivations are irrelevant. either you are rich, immoral, and benifit financially from this administration, or you are just an intolerant idiot that hangs onto every last word from the bush propaganda machine .

Who was this directed to?

My sixth grade logic?

I have great disdain for most politicans these days. They democrat or republican, arent looking after americas best interest. They are both spending america into an early grave, irregardless of Iraq or the Tax cuts.

But you said Bush was the only one that lied and put troops in harms way. Off hand there have been 4 or 5 presidents to do that. There have also been far more corrupt presidencies.

Politics is about manipulation, always has been and always will be. You are naive idealist living in a fanstasy world.

Read my sig.

 

[gabemcg]

It's gonna be a LONG 4 more years...

 

[Connoisseur]

Originally posted by: Nik

Originally posted by: DonVito

Originally posted by: Nik


I find it hard to believe that his "ratings" are being taken fairly considering the recent election results. I'm glad you have your opinion. Because that's all that it is if you refuse to look at the situation with an objective view.

What "objective view" are you talking about? Objectively, it looks to me as though we've spent (or will spend) hundreds of billions of dollars, killed tens of thousands of Iraqis, lost over 1,100 American lives, and burned essentially all of our political capital worldwide in support of an unwinnable, pointless, illegal war, based on completely faulty premises. If you can see this morass as anything positive, hey, knock yourself out.

If you search my posts from back in 2002, you'll see I spoke highly of President Bush and was happy to serve under him in the middle east. That tide has turned.

It seems to me there's a real hypocrisy in your saying my opinion is invalid, and yours isn't, simply because you disagree. Respectfully, I know a LOT more about the military than you ever will.

I understand and respect your experience in the military. What I don't get is why you're babbling that Bush is responsible for this and that and absolutely everything you can possibly accuse him of, without laying blame on anyone else. That's why I question your posts. I would much rather have had Bush in office than Gore, who would have gone running with his tail between his legs after 9/11. I would much rather have Bush in office than Kerry who would have taken forever with stupid summits and meetings asking everyone ELSE what to do, remaining indecisive about anything, not really doing or saying anything with real content (like his entire campaign) while the world passed him by.

I am neither a military man nor am I a political savant. I do, however, have my views as a U.S. citizen. I believe that, at the end of the day, it isn't Bush's competency (or lack thereof) that's his downfall. I think his worst trait is his refusal to accept his mistakes and learn from them. It is true that many presidents before him have made severe military and political screw-ups (Bay of Pigs as one ex.). But the mark of a true leader is their ability to realize where to fight their battles. Bush (or his cabinet or whoever makes the decisions) seems to disregard the human lives, not to mention the billions of dollars that were wasted on this campaign. You say Gore and Kerry would've been cowards. I say better to be a coward who saves lives than an ignorant ox whose tunnel vision and self-indulgence cost lives.

 

[digitalsm]

Originally posted by: gabemcg
It's gonna be a LONG 4 more years...

Its going to be a longer than four years. Until there is a viable 3rd party, america will continue on its spiral downward.

 

[0roo0roo]

Lets see, Clinton lied about Kosovo. Clinton dodged the draft. Clinton went against the UN. As for the armor, the resources are there and have been in the process of being installed long before this grunt asked the question.

And you were the one that brought Clinton into this. I just called every president a liar, and they have been.

And if politicians were looking out for american, there would be spending cuts.

you are truely sad. clinton and the draft? he was against the war. its morally consistent. BUSH WAS FOR THE WAR! and yet used his father and his connections to have another serve in his place. jumping ahead of others for a position he was not qualified for. what do you call that? IMMORAL by any standard. then he goes about shirking this ill gotten reprieve from duty. the man is SCUM. oh no wait,,,...he's "moral" because he talks about jesus alot!! lol... i guess we aren't so different from the middle east after all

as for the armor, rummy said it was not needed lol... and bush..ran for election saying the military was underfunded eh? so what does he do.. he gives tax cuts instead of buying armor. u idiot, they would have had armor when they needed it if he had been truthful when he stepped into office years before the conflict even started. its sad how pathetic apologists can get...

 

[NikPreviousAcct]

Originally posted by: Connoisseur

Originally posted by: Nik

Originally posted by: DonVito

Originally posted by: Nik


I find it hard to believe that his "ratings" are being taken fairly considering the recent election results. I'm glad you have your opinion. Because that's all that it is if you refuse to look at the situation with an objective view.

What "objective view" are you talking about? Objectively, it looks to me as though we've spent (or will spend) hundreds of billions of dollars, killed tens of thousands of Iraqis, lost over 1,100 American lives, and burned essentially all of our political capital worldwide in support of an unwinnable, pointless, illegal war, based on completely faulty premises. If you can see this morass as anything positive, hey, knock yourself out.

If you search my posts from back in 2002, you'll see I spoke highly of President Bush and was happy to serve under him in the middle east. That tide has turned.

It seems to me there's a real hypocrisy in your saying my opinion is invalid, and yours isn't, simply because you disagree. Respectfully, I know a LOT more about the military than you ever will.

I understand and respect your experience in the military. What I don't get is why you're babbling that Bush is responsible for this and that and absolutely everything you can possibly accuse him of, without laying blame on anyone else. That's why I question your posts. I would much rather have had Bush in office than Gore, who would have gone running with his tail between his legs after 9/11. I would much rather have Bush in office than Kerry who would have taken forever with stupid summits and meetings asking everyone ELSE what to do, remaining indecisive about anything, not really doing or saying anything with real content (like his entire campaign) while the world passed him by.

I am neither a military man nor am I a political savant. I do, however, have my views as a U.S. citizen. I believe that, at the end of the day, it isn't Bush's competency (or lack thereof) that's his downfall. I think his worst trait is his refusal to accept his mistakes and learn from them. It is true that many presidents before him have made severe military and political screw-ups (Bay of Pigs as one ex.). But the mark of a true leader is their ability to realize where to fight their battles. Bush (or his cabinet or whoever makes the decisions) seems to disregard the human lives, not to mention the billions of dollars that were wasted on this campaign. You say Gore and Kerry would've been cowards. I say better to be a coward who saves lives than an ignorant ox whose tunnel vision and self-indulgence cost lives.

Save whom? Save a few lives here and there right now? Or lose a few lives here and there to save many more to come? It basically comes down to whether you believe that people in the middle east will actually continue to attack. Do we sit back and hope to defend correctly or do we push back for once and actually DO something to perhaps stop something bigger in the future? Today's society seems to have one of the biggest gaps between sides of the arguement that I've ever seen or read about in recent history.

 

[digitalsm]

Originally posted by: Connoisseur

Originally posted by: Nik

Originally posted by: DonVito

Originally posted by: Nik


I find it hard to believe that his "ratings" are being taken fairly considering the recent election results. I'm glad you have your opinion. Because that's all that it is if you refuse to look at the situation with an objective view.

What "objective view" are you talking about? Objectively, it looks to me as though we've spent (or will spend) hundreds of billions of dollars, killed tens of thousands of Iraqis, lost over 1,100 American lives, and burned essentially all of our political capital worldwide in support of an unwinnable, pointless, illegal war, based on completely faulty premises. If you can see this morass as anything positive, hey, knock yourself out.

If you search my posts from back in 2002, you'll see I spoke highly of President Bush and was happy to serve under him in the middle east. That tide has turned.

It seems to me there's a real hypocrisy in your saying my opinion is invalid, and yours isn't, simply because you disagree. Respectfully, I know a LOT more about the military than you ever will.

I understand and respect your experience in the military. What I don't get is why you're babbling that Bush is responsible for this and that and absolutely everything you can possibly accuse him of, without laying blame on anyone else. That's why I question your posts. I would much rather have had Bush in office than Gore, who would have gone running with his tail between his legs after 9/11. I would much rather have Bush in office than Kerry who would have taken forever with stupid summits and meetings asking everyone ELSE what to do, remaining indecisive about anything, not really doing or saying anything with real content (like his entire campaign) while the world passed him by.

I am neither a military man nor am I a political savant. I do, however, have my views as a U.S. citizen. I believe that, at the end of the day, it isn't Bush's competency (or lack thereof) that's his downfall. I think his worst trait is his refusal to accept his mistakes and learn from them. It is true that many presidents before him have made severe military and political screw-ups (Bay of Pigs as one ex.). But the mark of a true leader is their ability to realize where to fight their battles. Bush (or his cabinet or whoever makes the decisions) seems to disregard the human lives, not to mention the billions of dollars that were wasted on this campaign. You say Gore and Kerry would've been cowards. I say better to be a coward who saves lives than an ignorant ox whose tunnel vision and self-indulgence cost lives.

Anyone who thinks pulling out of Iraq is the best situation long term is naive at best. The US does need to admit it made a mistake of rushing in, but not for overthrowing Saddam. We need to bludgeon the rest of the world until they help the US, because if we let Iraq stumble and falter by pulling out, the whole world will pay for it in the years to come.

 

[NikPreviousAcct]

Originally posted by: 0roo0roo

Lets see, Clinton lied about Kosovo. Clinton dodged the draft. Clinton went against the UN. As for the armor, the resources are there and have been in the process of being installed long before this grunt asked the question.

And you were the one that brought Clinton into this. I just called every president a liar, and they have been.

And if politicians were looking out for american, there would be spending cuts.

you are truely sad. clinton and the draft? he was against the war. its morally consistent. BUSH WAS FOR THE WAR! and yet used his father and his connections to have another serve in his place. jumping ahead of others for a position he was not qualified for. what do you call that? IMMORAL by any standard. then he goes about shirking this ill gotten reprieve from duty. the man is SCUM. oh no wait,,,...he's "moral" because he talks about jesus alot!! lol... i guess we aren't so different from the middle east after all

as for the armor, rummy said it was not needed lol... and bush..ran for election saying the military was underfunded eh? so what does he do.. he gives tax cuts instead of buying armor. u idiot, they would have had armor when they needed it if he had been truthful when he stepped into office years before the conflict even started. its sad how pathetic apologists can get...

Would you seriously please drop the whole religion argument?

 

[raildogg]

Our military has the best weapons in the world by far. I dont think they should complain

when you consider our our soldiers in WW2 or eve 1 had such bad supplies, bad antiquated equipment that they had to put up with. it really makes you appreciate the ww2 and 1 soldiers, how much they did with the kind of equipment they had

Rumsfeld is absolutely correct

 

[raildogg]

also its really idiotic ... "Rumsfeld pwned". wtf?

 

[digitalsm]

Originally posted by: 0roo0roo

Lets see, Clinton lied about Kosovo. Clinton dodged the draft. Clinton went against the UN. As for the armor, the resources are there and have been in the process of being installed long before this grunt asked the question.

And you were the one that brought Clinton into this. I just called every president a liar, and they have been.

And if politicians were looking out for american, there would be spending cuts.

you are truely sad. clinton and the draft? he was against the war. its morally consistent. BUSH WAS FOR THE WAR! and yet used his father and his connections to have another serve in his place. jumping ahead of others for a position he was not qualified for. what do you call that? IMMORAL by any standard. then he goes about shirking this ill gotten reprieve from duty. the man is SCUM. oh no wait,,,...he's "moral" because he talks about jesus alot!! lol... i guess we aren't so different from the middle east after all

as for the armor, rummy said it was not needed lol... and bush..ran for election saying the military was underfunded eh? so what does he do.. he gives tax cuts instead of buying armor. u idiot, they would have had armor when they needed it if he had been truthful when he stepped into office years before the conflict even started. its sad how pathetic apologists can get...

Oh this is easy to pick apart.

Draft dodging is draft dodging. Its every americans duty to come to her aid when the govt asks. As for morally consistent, I guess you consider pro-choice, anti death penalty evil vile scum because it is far far from morally consistent.

As for armor, they had plenty of vehicle armor intitially, its just as the past year and half, as replacement vehicles came in its taken time to put armor on them. And as for the infantry body armor, thats because the manufacture had problems supplying the military on time.

 

[gabemcg]

wow, I saw a funny video, and I posted it. Thats all. I definitly did not intend to turn ATOT into a political flame-war. I apologize for sparking this.

[rodneyking]"Can't we all just get along"[/rodneyking]

I think this is my first thread to go over 4 pages tho (sad really)

 

[gutharius]

Originally posted by: Nik
Save whom? Save a few lives here and there right now? Or lose a few lives here and there to save many more to come? It basically comes down to whether you believe that people in the middle east will actually continue to attack. Do we sit back and hope to defend correctly or do we push back for once and actually DO something to perhaps stop something bigger in the future? Today's society seems to have one of the biggest gaps between sides of the arguement that I've ever seen or read about in recent history.

Ah, so now not that we caught you faking to be a knowledgeable military expert, thankfully you admitted you are not, now you are an expert on sociology and middle eastern cultural affairs??? Really! When will theis BS stop?

 

[quakefiend420]

Originally posted by: gabemcg
wow, I saw a funny video, and I posted it. Thats all. I definitly did not intend to turn ATOT into a political flame-war. I apologize for sparking this.

[rodneyking]"Can't we all just get along"[/rodneyking]

I think this is my first thread to go over 4 pages tho (sad really)

lol...next time show no opinion on something like this...well everyone will turn it into a flamefest anyway...so fvck it say whatever you want

 

[nageov3t]

last year called. they want their thread back.

 

[gabemcg]

Originally posted by: loki8481
last year called. they want their thread back.

lol...sorry