IllogicalGlory
Senior member
- Mar 8, 2013
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IllogicalGlory
Senior member
- Mar 8, 2013
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Cannot. GDDR5/X vs HBM memory subsystem is completely different.
In HBM, a large part of the MC is on the stack itself and not on-die. This is part of the perf/mm2 advantages of HBM, as it frees up the GPU die for more performance resources. Ofc, perf/w advantages too.
As for the tweet from AMD > https://twitter.com/AMD/status/742455340839493632
I called this ages ago. Console makers have no choice if they want backwards compatibility: x86 + GCN combo, and backwards compatibility is the critical requirement to encourage console gamers into more frequent upgrade cycles.
Rather than PC gaming becoming consolized it's the other way around, APUs allow consoles to behave like PCs. Imagine a few generations down the road, games will still run on Xbox One or PS4, just on low res/detail, like PC gamers who run budget GPUs have to lower resolution & settings.
a bit off topic
let me just 1st say, I'm not a console person,. last console I had was a chip modded PS1, and before that a N64...
I thought, when MS previously quoted Xbox Flops, it was a combination of GPU + CPU ? If this is the case then a custom SOC it would seem , should easily hit 6TFlop (4C8TCPU /850-1000Mhz GPU).
IllogicalGlory
Senior member
- Mar 8, 2013
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I don't know about that. CPUs have very few flops. The i7-4790K has a mere 90-100 (billion).
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Yeah, but the quote is GPU 6Tflops, very specific. Not system TFlops.
If Polaris RX 480 is ~100W gaming load at 1.266ghz, running a APU with the same 36 CU @ 1.3ghz will basically be around the same power usage. Add the low power CPU cores, the entire APU could be 125-135W gaming load.
Either way, being in all next-gen consoles will be good for Polaris GPUs on the PC too.
SolMiester
Diamond Member
- Dec 19, 2004
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AMD hate is coming from NV 980 users?...how the <redacted>would you know that?.......every NV card release you bring out the NV history violin while staggeringly, state AMD can do no wrong and never did.....
How do you remember all these figures?, who even has those sorts of figures from 5 years ago and why?
Seriously, every new NV release you are on here bitching about NV, and you have the gall to say NV users are on here hating on AMD..LOL
Cursing is not allowed here, Even though you spelled it different, its pronounced the same.
Markfw900
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I'm not sure that is the case. Although I'd have to go back to the transcripts, I believe AMD stated during a conference call it had 3 semi-custom wins related to consoles. Speculation began that this would reflect the console trinity: xbox, playstation & Nintendo NX.
It was somewhat well-supported that the first two of the semi-custom wins were a new Xbox and a Playstation 4k. And, these were ultimately confirmed. This left one more semi-custom win unaccounted for. Many presumed it would be Nintendo NX, but Nintendo remains hush other than that the NX exists. However, during E3 another alternative surfaced - a revised semi-custom chip for Xbox One S.
Is the third semi-custom related to console the Nintendo NX or a new chip for the Xbox One S. Rumors prior to E3 suggests that Nintendo may have went ARM/Nvidia for the NX. The Xbox One S is sufficiently shrunk down that they were able to put the PSU inside the console. Surely other components can be shrunk, but I would propose that the largest power draw is by far the APU and the potential shrinking of other supporting components would be insufficient. This would suggest that their was at least a minimal rework of the Xbox One APU that could account for one of the three semi-custom wins AMD referenced (a full shrink to 14nm is unlikely given the cost of doing....but....).
I'm going off memory here so there may be a few facts that could clarify the situation at this time (we'll certainly know more once the Xbox One S is released and someone does a teardown/power measurement). The primary fact that comes to mind is the when those semi-custom wins would be accretive to revenues. I don't recall precisely when the 3 semi-custom wins were too be accretive to revenues but for some reason my memory is suggesting possibly Q3 (which would be Xbox One S).
Not to get too far off on a tangent, but since console APU's were brought up, I figured what not a better place to reraise the issue since it hasn't been discussed in quite some time.
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@atakall
NX is still in the rumor mill, nothing close to confirmation.
However, devs on NX dev-boxes have stated that the NX hardware and OS makes it a breeze to port over PS/Xbox games.
This leads me to think it is x86/GCN and probably a modified Vulkan based OS.
Nintendo suddenly joined the Kronos membership a few months ago. They were never with that group for the many years prior.
Connect the dots.
As for the price, the public figures available is AMD sells the current PS4/Xbox APU at $100 each. Nobody knows what the price will be for next-gen APU. My guess, AMD will jack it up some because it knows MS/Sony needs backwards compatibility as a major selling point. They have leverage, they will use it to increase profits.
Another major point, AMD has a WSA with GloFo to buy $1B worth of wafers per year. Even if they do not use all of it, they have to pay GF compensation. It hurt them in the 28nm consoles because 28nm at GF wasn't good enough at that time, AMD had to go with TSMC, so they paid TSMC for wafers as well as compensating GF. Terrible situation for AMD to be in.
Since it's confirmed 14nm APUs for these new consoles, it means this time around, they would have the volume to saturate the WSA and such, they are in a much better position to profit.
NX is still in the rumor mill, nothing close to confirmation.
However, devs on NX dev-boxes have stated that the NX hardware and OS makes it a breeze to port over PS/Xbox games.
This leads me to think it is x86/GCN and probably a modified Vulkan based OS.
Nintendo suddenly joined the Kronos membership a few months ago. They were never with that group for the many years prior.
Connect the dots.
As for the price, the public figures available is AMD sells the current PS4/Xbox APU at $100 each. Nobody knows what the price will be for next-gen APU. My guess, AMD will jack it up some because it knows MS/Sony needs backwards compatibility as a major selling point. They have leverage, they will use it to increase profits.
Another major point, AMD has a WSA with GloFo to buy $1B worth of wafers per year. Even if they do not use all of it, they have to pay GF compensation. It hurt them in the 28nm consoles because 28nm at GF wasn't good enough at that time, AMD had to go with TSMC, so they paid TSMC for wafers as well as compensating GF. Terrible situation for AMD to be in.
Since it's confirmed 14nm APUs for these new consoles, it means this time around, they would have the volume to saturate the WSA and such, they are in a much better position to profit.
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A little off topic but hbm2 successor could be 3d stacking with the needed cooling and a die stacked memory device with programmable logic, 2 patents that recently were approved.
http://patents.justia.com/patent/9331053
and
http://patents.justia.com/patent/9344091
NX has definitely been confirmed along with a March 2017 release date. Alas, no specifics have been provided. I agree that it would seem disadvantageous of Nintendo to go with an alternative hardware system given that it claims it will seek to increase the game offerings of 3rd party developers (ports). I also have my doubts about the cost efficacy of an ARM/Nvidia combo, and Nintendo, being historically more cost-sensitive to hardware costs than Sony/Microsoft, will certainly go with the most cost effective option (there's a lot to discuss here, but I digress).
Even if we presume that Nintendo is the third of the semi-custom contracts referenced by AMD, I'm still curious what is in the Xbox One S. Can you really shrink the size of the Xbox One and move the PSU inside, as MSFT has, and maintain the necessary operating environment (temps/noise) by simply moving a few parts here, drilling a few holes there, and/or using a new HSF combo? I have my doubts. Looking forward to the tear-down. I've searched far and wide but have not seen any discussions so far on the issue.
I've been following AMD as a publicly traded company since the late 90s but don't want to divert the topic too much. Thanks for the post and your insight as always.
Even if we presume that Nintendo is the third of the semi-custom contracts referenced by AMD, I'm still curious what is in the Xbox One S. Can you really shrink the size of the Xbox One and move the PSU inside, as MSFT has, and maintain the necessary operating environment (temps/noise) by simply moving a few parts here, drilling a few holes there, and/or using a new HSF combo? I have my doubts. Looking forward to the tear-down. I've searched far and wide but have not seen any discussions so far on the issue.
I've been following AMD as a publicly traded company since the late 90s but don't want to divert the topic too much.
Thanks for the post and your insight as always.EDIT: Refreshing my memory, they are most likely 14nm APUs.
First, AMD's twitter post confirms Scorpio uses an SoC.
Second, the performance levels required necessitate, for all practical purposes, that the GPU section of the APU is a Polaris derivative.
Third, the Playstation Neo is a March 2017 product. This provides sufficient time to either shrink the CAT cores to 14nm or use "Zen-lite" cores as part of the APU.
These facts strongly support a 14nm APU.
Alas, could you combine a 28nm Jaguar and a 14nm Polaris derivative via an interposer and call it an SoC? And, could AMD still get 20% higher frequency out of the Jaguar while remaining on 28nm?
And, are Jaguar cores still being used. Rumor indicates Zen-Lite cores. Lots of questions and speculation but few solid answers.
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I know your comment isn't directed at me, but figure I will chime in. There has been no representation by AMD one way or the other as to the process of the new APUs. I'm actually curious as to what people think are in the new consoles. I'm not so sure they even use APU's (shocker). It may be that the new console chips are as much a stop-gap measure as the new consoles are (being considered as ".5" versions).
It all comes down to whether there was sufficient time or drive (willingness to make the investment) to shrink the CAT cores to 14nm. Would it have been simpler to cut the IGP from the CAT core, produce a bunch of CAT core CPUs (w/no IGPs) at 28nm and create a standard console motherboard of the past (cpu socket/GPU socket) that uses a variation of the 14nm Polaris for GPU? There are a lot of variations that could have occurred here. Will be interesting to see what was done.
And, if an investment was made into shrinking CAT cores to fit alongside the Polaris GPU to form a new APU, perhaps the first step in that process was to shrink the Xbox One APU (since you would achieve the shrunk Cat cores in the process) which would suggest we'll see a 14nm shrunk Xbox One APU in Xbox One S. One of the things we have to consider is the limited resources of AMD (although they work alongside other teams from MSFT, etc. during these developments). Not sure some of these options would have been feasible in the timespan we are talking about simply due to limited manpower.
Interesting times for certain.
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1. PS4 developer PDF for specs. On 28nm, it would be a huge and power hungry chip, automatic no-go.
2. AMD's investor conference calls, about 14nm semi-custom to drive their WSA volume. Now that they confirmed the 2 new Xbox as AMD APU, it's almost certain they are 14nm.
A few other leaks as well.
thesmokingman
Platinum Member
- May 6, 2010
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That s no more the case if we look at AMD s financials, not sure that they will keep this favour with 14nm though...
Elixer
Lifer
- May 7, 2002
- 10,371
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The investment was already made a long time ago, all new SOCs will be 14nm, they don't have the resources (both financial & personnel) to continue to improve their 28nm lines.
They would have mentioned that they got a huge cash influx from Sony/MS/Nintendo in order to keep improving, so, we are almost guaranteed that all new chips will be 14nm.
The XB1S, is interesting, the FCC disclosure on this is set for June 25th and July 29th.
I am thinking that won't be 14nm tech though, at least, not the main chips.
DarkKnightDude
Senior member
- Mar 10, 2011
- 981
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Do you cover the stock just as a hobby or in any sort of professional / institutional setting? (if you don't mind my asking)
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Was planning to wait until Vega but if half of this is true maybe I should dump this 390 while I still can and go Polaris.
I have a 390 and was thinking the same thing sell it while I can and get a RX480 if performance is above R9 390x by 10-15% then I will go for it.
Even if performance is the same, just the added features and efficiency is worth the side grade, IMO. Plus it'll be worth more 6 months from now when Vega appears, if you really need more performance.
Yep, that's what I'm thinking. This would be my 3rd card in more or less the same performance ballpark then. 970 - 390 - 480.
Yep, that's what I'm thinking. This would be my 3rd card in more or less the same performance ballpark then. 970 - 390 - 480.
I can see that getting a bit monotonous.
Oh well, good times ahead with a new node finally upon us.
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