Rule britannia

[cybrsage]

Let's be clear: England's move away from empire is rooted in defeat, not benevolence.

However, at some point, deciding to accept the loss of empire was part of the change.

I'm saying the final effect of England shifting from a world empire to a nation that has embraced democracy over empire is what's a magnificent change, in terms of the improvement for everyone involved and something we should like to see globally, and to a decent extent have - though it's too much been replaced by 'economic imperialism'.

As I've said, Britain was a monstrous colonizer; now, they're much different.

Much as the world gave up slavery as an institution country by country in the late 19th century, colonialism has largely been abolished as an institution in the mid 20th, accelerated IMO by JFK's policies to support third-world independence - from a combination o idealism, and pragmatic cold war tactics to win their support.

Very well said!

 

[Craig234]

OK Craig234, that's better. It's just that saying "giving up empire" was an odd choice of words when millions had to fight and die against the UK in order to force the UK into defeat and a loss of their slave-states. At that point, they basically had nothing to give up. The only thing left was to accept a transformation of status as a former world enslaver to a relatively insignificant power.

I agree my original comment was incomplete; they deserve more credit than you give.

 

[Lemon law]

I still think this forum misses the point, if we compare the 400 or 500 hundred year period of colonialism to the larger maybe 6000 year period of written human history. Because before there was colonialism, it was possible to have only various small regional powers, but nothing that was global in scale.

Maybe we can say on a total downside, for the first time in human history, colonialism made military power an affordable asset to a country desiring a colonial empire. But still to make colonialism a feasible paying proposition had to wait for the invention of the long distance sailing ship, the exploitation of gun powder, and the sciences of Newton and others that gave men of learning the knowledge that there were assets some regions of the world had and others lacked. After that human nature greed largely possessed by only Europeans made colonialism a unstoppable force as various European countries gobbled up most of the world.

After that we can look at the present fate of various countries that used to be ruled by various early colonial powers. Spain was the country out of the box first, Portugal next, the French the next, as England started in basically last. But still, I think we have to say, the parts of the early colonial world that broke free of the colonial yoke, were best governed by the Brits. And last place belongs to former colonies of Spain.

We can paint colonialism with a totally black of white brush, but still its the force that made the world into the global today. I hope humanity can unite and find common cause with each other or humanity now has the technology to destroy all life forms on the earth.

We have to learn the lesson of a past we can't change, because mere greed and human nature is now a force to destroy us all.

 

[tommo123]

Canada and Australia (just to name to which immediately came to mind) did not have to fight for their freedom from the Empire. They were willingly given up by the UK.

i might be wrong but didn't we (brits) give up certain links with the canadians (freedom of movement) to get closer to europe in the 80s?

i know i'd much sooner move to canada than anywhere in europe (in spite of being closer to the yanks)

 

[Infohawk]

We already had another user thread like this that was designed to contain Cow/Rabid. Now another one? Their trolling is really paying off.

 

[RabidMongoose]

I agree my original comment was incomplete; they deserve more credit than you give.

I didn't really comment one way or another on the rest of your post, but I didn't have any other issue with it.

We already had another user thread like this that was designed to contain Cow/Rabid. Now another one? Their trolling is really paying off.

Hilarious to see Infohawk complaining about trolling, especially considering how he complained about a trolling derail when he was the only one who was even talking about the subject of the supposed derail! Trolls usually have no idea that they're trolls.

 

[Lemon law]

I can somewhat understand our OP, JOS, reveling in past British empire glories, I can understand others pointing out all the warts and flaws of the Former British empire.

But it still gets us no where today.

 

[ichy]

I am sure he isn't correct. Mugabe replace one totalitarian government with another and kicked out all the white farmers and gave it to his cronies. But to state that the Zimbabweans were better off under colonial rule is bullshit. Were the Congolese better under colonial rule as well, when their limbs were getting chopped off and millions died mining for the king of belgium? Blanket statements like Africans were better under colonial rule than they are today is just false. Either back up your statements or STFU.

Rhodesia was not the Belgian Congo and it was not a totalitarian state. It was a racist minority regime but at least the racists were competent and not psychotic, neither of which could be said about Mugabe & his buddies.

 

[cwjerome]

Let's be clear: England's move away from empire is rooted in defeat, not benevolence.

However, at some point, deciding to accept the loss of empire was part of the change.

I'm saying the final effect of England shifting from a world empire to a nation that has embraced democracy over empire is what's a magnificent change, in terms of the improvement for everyone involved and something we should like to see globally, and to a decent extent have - though it's too much been replaced by 'economic imperialism'.

As I've said, Britain was a monstrous colonizer; now, they're much different.

Much as the world gave up slavery as an institution country by country in the late 19th century, colonialism has largely been abolished as an institution in the mid 20th, accelerated IMO by JFK's policies to support third-world independence - from a combination o idealism, and pragmatic cold war tactics to win their support.

Two things here. Britain was a monstrous colonizer, and for all the ugly warts of this process, I believe it was a net gain for the world.

The second thing is Britain glided from empire to mere major power very gracefully, and I think the US could learn a few things from this. What we do in the next 20 years could determine whether we become a shell of our former selves or a maintain a strong and dynamic power in a world where others have risen. If we retreat into ourselves, like many economic isolationists want, we will fall by the wayside while the rest of the world passes us by. As the world shift from unipolarity to a more multipolar paradigm over the next couple decades, our gameplan better be politically feasible.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

This thread turned out just like i hoped it would, it was basically a response to some of the trolls that actually spawned some good posts.

And it amases me that no one knows where parliamentary democracy comes from, especially given that it is a copy of what is instituted in every democratic nation on earth.

'tis ok to bow your heads in shame now.

 

[monovillage]

This thread turned out just like i hoped it would, it was basically a response to some of the trolls that actually spawned some good posts.

And it amases me that no one knows where parliamentary democracy comes from, especially given that it is a copy of what is instituted in every democratic nation on earth.

'tis ok to bow your heads in shame now.

There is no shame in what I posted.

 

[RabidMongoose]

I can somewhat understand our OP, JOS, reveling in past British empire glories, I can understand others pointing out all the warts and flaws of the Former British empire.

But it still gets us no where today.

You can understand people basically amounting to genocide apologists? I'm sorry, but I can never understand people 'reveling' in past 'glories' that were basically genocides all over the entire world.

There's a point to remember the atrocities of the past so that we can all improve going forward. There's not a point in glorifying mass murder.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

There is no shame in what I posted.

I wasn't adressing you and you probably know that.

Shame is a funny thing, those who should feel it are too daft to do so and those smart enough to feel it do so for the wrong reasons.

You are smart enough not to feel shame and know you shouldn't.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

It's a call out thread and should be dealt with accordingly.

Oh look, it's the fundie Islamist terrorist sympathizer arguing for the banning of a Jew.

How.... unexpected.

 

[CanOWorms]

Canada and Australia (just to name to which immediately came to mind) did not have to fight for their freedom from the Empire. They were willingly given up by the UK.

Canada and Australia were settler colonies. Their treatment was different because of racial reasons.

 

[irishScott]

This thread turned out just like i hoped it would, it was basically a response to some of the trolls that actually spawned some good posts.

And it amases me that no one knows where parliamentary democracy comes from, especially given that it is a copy of what is instituted in every democratic nation on earth.

'tis ok to bow your heads in shame now.

You mean Sweden?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Parliamentarism

The origins of the modern concept of prime ministerial government go back to the Kingdom of Great Britain (1707–1800) and The Parliamentary System in Sweden 1721 - 1772 , that coincided with each other.

Here in the states we're taught that our Democracy comes from the Constitution, Bill of Rights, and encapsulates many of the ideals of the Declaration of Independence. Everything else is world history which is covered more briefly. I remember having to memorize a series of important English kings while studying the Renaissance, I have forgotten most of them and am unsure of the order of the ones I do remember.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

You mean Sweden?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Parliamentarism



Here in the states we're taught that our Democracy comes from the Constitution, Bill of Rights, and encapsulates many of the ideals of the Declaration of Independence. Everything else is world history which is covered more briefly. I remember having to memorize a series of important English kings while studying the Renaissance, I have forgotten most of them and am unsure of the order of the ones I do remember.

No, i mean England and it's not like there is any question if it is so, it is so (naturally i am talking about PARLIAMENTARY DEMOCRACY). All of the US constitution and bill of rights is based off of English law and the Magna Carta, but of course, you already knew that?

 

[CanOWorms]

No, i mean England and it's not like there is any question if it is so, it is so (naturally i am talking about PARLIAMENTARY DEMOCRACY). All of the US constitution and bill of rights is based off of English law and the Magna Carta, but of course, you already knew that?

All... LOL

 

[irishScott]

No, i mean England and it's not like there is any question if it is so, it is so (naturally i am talking about PARLIAMENTARY DEMOCRACY). All of the US constitution and bill of rights is based off of English law and the Magna Carta, but of course, you already knew that?

"Based off" being the operative term. Like how Star Wars was "based off" other science fiction and previous special effects tech.

 

[RabidMongoose]

British people are pretty desperate. Wow. Trying to steal from my people who started a parliamentary system in the 900s, the oldest one that still exists today.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

"Based off" being the operative term. Like how Star Wars was "based off" other science fiction and previous special effects tech.

Not really but i'm not the least bit surprised you think so.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

British people are pretty desperate. Wow. Trying to steal from my people who started a parliamentary system in the 900s, the oldest one that still exists today.

So is this Iceland in the 900's or Mongolia?

Either way, no.

 

[RabidMongoose]

So is this Iceland in the 900's or Mongolia?

Either way, no.

Iceland obviously. And of course, yes.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Iceland obviously. And of course, yes.

So basically you are saying that the Icelandic Altingi was the first form of democratic parliament?

And yet it wasn't democratic, just a representation of members of the commonwealth...

I don't know if you are joking or if you are just unaware of Icelandic history.

 

[irishScott]

Not really but i'm not the least bit surprised you think so.

Neither am I. After all our refinement of your common law has created a sustained world superpower that has accomplished some of the greatest feats in history. Your refinement of your own law lost you your superpower status a long time ago. Obama put it nicely, the US is an indispensable nation to most of the world. Our President's mere State of the Union speech headlines foreign newspapers. Can the UK say anything equivalent?