Ron Paul votes to squish small animals

Page 4 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

jackschmittusa

Diamond Member
Apr 16, 2003
5,972
1
0
lothar

The people soliciting donations did not abuse any animals; so stand to make no profit from their own crime is part of the issue.

Another part is that what is shown is not about domestic animals.

Another part is that there may be some argument that the process depicted may be defined as "standard industry practice" and not abuse.

Even the assumption that there will be a profit from donations is not a given, as they purport to use said money for prevention of practices they have labeled as abusive.

Your arguments are very weak and not worth spending any more time on.

Do you have something new?
 

Freshgeardude

Diamond Member
Jul 31, 2006
4,506
0
76
first things first. i didnt read the thread, and i do not really support ron paul.


It did say they felt the law to be unconstitutional and THAT is why they voted against it. It has nothing to do with the subject of animals in the sense that, oh he wants to see them crushed.


pretty sure they felt it was against the right of people to distribute that kind of stuff. i havent read up on the law though, so i might be wrong on this part
 

daishi5

Golden Member
Feb 17, 2005
1,196
0
76
It cracks me up a bit all the knuckle draggers who are constitutional experts.

Especially considering our model founding fathers included the second President and his Congress who thought - and acted on - that criticizing the government was criminal.

When the government acts to protect defenseless animals from horrific abuse on behalf of the citizens who have that moral position, the clueless ideologue poster sees tyranny.

He doesn't know tyranny if it bit him, which the animals should do to him.

Give a child a phrase like 'tree of liberty', and get out the gloves to clean up the excrement he leaves behind with it throwing it around.

Oh noes, our country is a police state, animal torture isn't permitted. Glenn Beck would call him a crazy alarmist.

Two really quick comments, this law is being passed in response to the supreme court striking down another law that banned this 8-1. Only Scalia supported the law, and Scalia even used the same argument you did, the law was good because it protected small animals. Knowing your opinion of Scalia, you may wish to rethink your position, because your reasoning sounds a lot like his in the court opinion.

Second, the law really does raise first amendment concerns because it limits a form of "speech." The first amendment is very broad to protect many forms of speech, because it would be toothless if it only protected speech that the government deemed worthy of protection. The side effect of the 1st is that it must protect speech we do not like, and this issue dives right into those waters of "can we ban a form of speech because we don't like it?"
 

jackschmittusa

Diamond Member
Apr 16, 2003
5,972
1
0
daishi5

Free speech is not unlimited. Don't see 1st Amendment as a barrier to preventing profiting from your crime. Cruelty to animals is a crime virtually everywhere.
 

OutHouse

Lifer
Jun 5, 2000
36,410
616
126
you logic is stupid and the reason our politics are so fucked up.

by your thought process he voted no on the bill so he must love crushing animals, hell i bet he has a whole library of blu-ray crush videos in his bedroom.

Paul voted the correct vote on this.
 
Last edited:

daishi5

Golden Member
Feb 17, 2005
1,196
0
76
daishi5

Free speech is not unlimited. Don't see 1st Amendment as a barrier to preventing profiting from your crime. Cruelty to animals is a crime virtually everywhere.

Free speech is not unlimited, but the limits are very small and very tightly defined. The supreme court requires a very strong argument to extend the limits. The question is if this law covers a situation in which we should add another exception to the 1st amendment or not.

I personally don't see a huge moral difference between killing small animals and killing livestock to put bacon on my table. Many forms of pest control are probably more cruel than these videos. I think most of the disgust with this practice is not the treatment or the suffering of the animals, but that other people enjoy it. It is not about the animals suffering, but about how disgusted we are with other peoples behavior.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
Two really quick comments, this law is being passed in response to the supreme court striking down another law that banned this 8-1. Only Scalia supported the law, and Scalia even used the same argument you did, the law was good because it protected small animals. Knowing your opinion of Scalia, you may wish to rethink your position, because your reasoning sounds a lot like his in the court opinion.

Second, the law really does raise first amendment concerns because it limits a form of "speech." The first amendment is very broad to protect many forms of speech, because it would be toothless if it only protected speech that the government deemed worthy of protection. The side effect of the 1st is that it must protect speech we do not like, and this issue dives right into those waters of "can we ban a form of speech because we don't like it?"

Daishi, first I'll note, your response did not respond to most of my points, but made its own, which is fine.

On your points, you probably do not appreciate the contempt I have for Scalia, even while I recognize some of his views are sincere but misguided, but you also don't understand my opinion - if Scalaia takes the right side of an issue and a favorite Justice of my the wrong side, 'good for Scalia, he's right' he's my response. My opinion is based on what's right, not who wrote it, any my contempt for Scalia is based on his being wrong so much (in both senses of the word much, degree and volume).

I might rethink an issue if he agrees because his principles are so different and it raises questions, but if he's right, he's right, and that's good.

If you have a link to the opinion you mention, it'd be interesting to see. Maybe I'll get to post my first compliment for Scalia I can recall.

Admittedly, these are tough lines to draw and come down to opinion more than anything. They're not the first tough issues - for example, the (Warren) court stood strong for free speech when it ruled against 'prior restraint', which IMO is a far more important free speech issue, and the stakes were higher - if the government knows someone is about to publish info it considers harmful to national security in a time of war, can it prevent the publication rather than just punish it if it was illegal after the fact?

'Protect the children' is one of the most potent weapons in the arsenal of the people who would deny free speech, and it takes a court with some backbone to say 'tough luck'.

'Protect the nation' is another of the biggest weapons in that arsenal, and it needs the same for the court to say 'tough luck' to the government and public opinion that might think the court is filled with traitors who will cause the overthrow of the country (with the help of some opportunistic commentators, whether William Randolph Hearst or Fox).

There definitely are two sides to this to consider hard - 'protect the X' is not a backdoor loophole to gut free speech. If it were, every person who argues against a war could be painted as a 'threat to the men and women who serve if not the nation itself' for their views, as happens too much already.

And we are treading very close to the same issues in obscenity law. We had a period where 'nudist documentary films' were ok, because they skirted a definition of product being made for 'prurient interest', just as we now try to debate the difference between 'documentaries' for public policy on animal cruelty and those which serve an audience who enjoy sadism. (What's to stop someone from making a tongue in cheek 'documentary against animal cruelty' that's really aimed at meeting the prurient interests, just as the 'nudist colony' films did - who knew there were so many public policy and education issues in seeing those camps?)

You frame the question about 'speech we don't like' - we'd probably agree that's on the protected side, but we do have the right to oppose some behaviors we don't like, that hurt animals or children or even consensual adults (would we let someone be blinded for pay, or recognize it as an inherently problematic act, for instance?) - and there comes a balancing act in media depicting such behaviors.

I've felt for a while that *drawings* catering to pedophiles or sadists seem like protected speech - even faked films - as distasteful (or worse) as they are to most citizens.

That raises another topic, where the people for censoring these try to link them to an increase in the actions of the market - to make a link justifying censorship.

This is a 'gray area'. If I put out a movie where consistently, 10% of the people who saw it committed a murder within a week because they saw it, we would almost certainly say we had a public danger justifying censorship, scree free speech. these gray links between trying to tie media and behavior are the same idea, less clear. Does pornography 'cause' some rapes? Almost for sure. How do you separate the predisposition from the film? Do the films prevent some rapes? Almost for sure. Gray area.

For all our talk of free speech, there has long been a lot of mob rule - you could go to jail for having sex photos for most of the time there have been sex photos. Mae West was a national scandal who helped cause the government to censor the movie industry for merely suggestive language. The mob has ruled.

We now arguably have the freest speech we've ever had (largely thanks to liberals, to get the plug in), even when in ways, we have some increasing restrictions (such as 'freedom zones' blocks from political events to prevent annoying protestors, and the public making bad use of its freedoms as propagandists like Fox thrive).

This isn't an easy issue, but I'd like to find room for preventing the distribution of media that really does cause the cruelty to animals with a market on the side of 'ok to ban'.

That is not based on 'disagreeing' with it or just 'oh my gosh the cute animals' emotional appeal, but on balancing the issues and treasuring our free speech rights.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
Free speech is not unlimited, but the limits are very small and very tightly defined. The supreme court requires a very strong argument to extend the limits. The question is if this law covers a situation in which we should add another exception to the 1st amendment or not.

I personally don't see a huge moral difference between killing small animals and killing livestock to put bacon on my table. Many forms of pest control are probably more cruel than these videos. I think most of the disgust with this practice is not the treatment or the suffering of the animals, but that other people enjoy it. It is not about the animals suffering, but about how disgusted we are with other peoples behavior.

A difference is the tradeoff - i.e., food versus sadism. If cars had no benefit, but merely killed tens of thousands of Americans a year, they would likely not be allowed, either.

A second difference is the expectation and regulation for slaughter and trapping to minimize the animal's suffering while the sadist acts are to increase it for the pleasure of the sadist.
 

daishi5

Golden Member
Feb 17, 2005
1,196
0
76
Daishi, first I'll note, your response did not respond to most of my points, but made its own, which is fine.

On your points, you probably do not appreciate the contempt I have for Scalia, even while I recognize some of his views are sincere but misguided, but you also don't understand my opinion - if Scalaia takes the right side of an issue and a favorite Justice of my the wrong side, 'good for Scalia, he's right' he's my response. My opinion is based on what's right, not who wrote it, any my contempt for Scalia is based on his being wrong so much (in both senses of the word much, degree and volume).

I might rethink an issue if he agrees because his principles are so different and it raises questions, but if he's right, he's right, and that's good.

If you have a link to the opinion you mention, it'd be interesting to see. Maybe I'll get to post my first compliment for Scalia I can recall.

http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/09pdf/08-769.pdf

It would be interesting, because this is one of the times where I vehemently disagree with the reasoning I see from Scalia.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
you logic is stupid and the reason our politics are so fucked up.

by your thought process he voted no on the bill so he must love crushing animals, hell i bet he has a whole library of blu-ray crush videos in his bedroom.

Paul voted the correct vote on this.

Actually, your logic is wrong, as you create a straw man. No one has said Paul 'loves these videos'.

What they're saying is that his ideology is so extreme that it draws the lines too far one direction, and the effect is to increase the amount of these films being made.

If a Nazi sincerely believes certain groups are insects harmful to the human race who it's moral to eliminate, do we say he 'enjoys killing them' falsely (presumably for most), or judge him by the effects of his wrongful beliefs about the human race? This is acknowledging Paul has 'noble intentions' for free speech, but holds him accountable for the effects of those views *and* his getting the constitution wrong, in other's opinion.

This is one in a long list of positions Paul takes which many others find both wrong and harmful.

If millions of Americans lost their lives and suffered because of Paul's views being enacts, he would, if he doesn't change, defend that as the right thing to do. Others disagree.

Every totalitarian regime I know of has made some efforts to defend its policies, whether 'security of the country' or otherwise, on nobler reasons. Others disagreed.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/09pdf/08-769.pdf

It would be interesting, because this is one of the times where I vehemently disagree with the reasoning I see from Scalia.

OK, the ruling helped clarify some things.

Most importantly is that it appears not to be about the issue of banning crush videos, but about the statue being overly broad that tried to do so.

I happen to agree with that issue, and therefore the court's majority, on that.

This is a case which does not seem to tread much on the issues involving the radical right's agenda, and we see 8 justices on the same side.

Also, the one dissenting Justice was Alito, not Scalia, but I feel similarly about each - Alito probably a bit worse than Scalia - so it doesn't change much.

For example, here's what the majority said about the statute's broad claim:

Section 48 creates a criminal prohibition of alarming breadth.The statute’s definition of a “depiction of animal cruelty” does not even require that the depicted conduct be cruel. While the words “maimed, mutilated, [and] tortured” convey cruelty, “wounded” and “killed” do not.

A fine point.

Further, they said, and I agree with, because you cannot let 'little wrongs' that open the door for gutting rights sneak in in unjustified tradeoffs:

Despite the Government’s assurance that it will apply §48 toreach only “extreme” cruelty, this Court will not uphold an unconsti-tutional statute merely because the Government promises to use itresponsibly.

IMO, the government promising how they will use limited enforcement of an overly broad law is at best 'let us get away with a badly written law that threatens rights in the next administration', and at worse a calculated approach to get unconstitutional laws violating rights passed by 'bundling' the rights violation with a popular cause the justice won't 'dare' to vote against, the way anti-pornography prosecutors would hand-pick the most offensive cases like simulated rape/torture, to try to get broad laws approved.

Now, Alito, in arguing to defend the overly broad law, however sincere his desire to 'protect the animals', used the logic of the right I often oppose and mentioned above:

I do not think the present record supports the Court’s conclusion that §48bans a substantial quantity of protected speech.

This is an example of that weaselly argument that says 'sure, some constitutionally protected speech will get censored here too, but my count today, it's not that much'.

I did not read anything that they aren't open to a more narrowly written law.

So, I get to side with the reasonable justices against Alito after all, even if it's not a case that really deals with the four radical right Justices' agenda.
 
Aug 23, 2000
15,509
1
81
A woman local to where I live was busted making those a few years ago and they played some clips of that sick shit on the news, I don't see how anyone can be against outlawing it.

Did you not read his reason for not voting for it???
He believes the bill to be unconstitutional. If anything, he sticks to his guns when it comes to the Constitutionality of bills he votes on.

Just because the subject matter might be offensive or despicable, does not mean you should vote for it. You should look at the total ramification of the precedent set and the actual legality, Constitutionality of such a law.
 

Throckmorton

Lifer
Aug 23, 2007
16,829
3
0
So you can still make the videos, just not for profit?

I think that was Ron Paul's real problem with the law... Forced socialism.
 

daishi5

Golden Member
Feb 17, 2005
1,196
0
76
This is an example of that weaselly argument that says 'sure, some constitutionally protected speech will get censored here too, but my count today, it's not that much'. I did not read anything that they aren't open to a more narrowly written law. So, I get to side with the reasonable justices against Alito after all, even if it's not a case that really deals with the four radical right Justices' agenda.

I don't like banning speech of any kind, even when they do it with a narrow focus. I just don't think this is an issue which justifies it.

A fine point. Further, they said, and I agree with, because you cannot let 'little wrongs' that open the door for gutting rights sneak in in unjustified tradeoffs:

I see this as a "little wrong" that could open a door further down the line.

From my view, people want this banned because some sicko enjoys it, not because an animal suffered. Very few people want to ban bacon and steaks, even though a great magnitude more animals suffer for food, because they enjoy bacon and steaks. But, when an animal suffers for something they find disgusting, that is a good target for a ban. This is a law being passed because they people who enjoy it are people we find disgusting, not because animals suffered. We let animals suffer all the time, it is just the excuse we are using to show our disgust for these people.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
Did you not read his reason for not voting for it???
He believes the bill to be unconstitutional. If anything, he sticks to his guns when it comes to the Constitutionality of bills he votes on.

Just because the subject matter might be offensive or despicable, does not mean you should vote for it. You should look at the total ramification of the precedent set and the actual legality, Constitutionality of such a law.

That doesn't mean every view he has on what's constitutional is correct. He has one opinion - which happens to be 'extreme', right or wrong - others have other opinions.

In other words, just making the point that there is an issue of constitutionality that overrides the emotional opinion does not prove that he's right on the constitutionality.
 

Kirby

Lifer
Apr 10, 2006
12,028
2
0
I imagine this a feel-good PR law that probably won't be used as they intended to portray, if I assume that other animal cruelty laws are on the state level (I have no idea). Surely a prosecutor wouldn't kick up a case to the feds for a video crime.
 

OutHouse

Lifer
Jun 5, 2000
36,410
616
126
Your loss. You appear not to understand the corollary to Godwin's rule very well. It's not against Nazi analogies, it's against gratuitous Nazi analogies to call your opponent one.

na not my loss, im a better person for not even trying to link a nazi argument into a thread about animal abuse.
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
174
106
I think this might be a tough call, and for the moment I'll give the benefit of the doubt to Ron Paul.

"Free speech" doesn't just mean the speech you like. The racist stuff put out by groups like the KKK or New Black Panthers is certainly distastefull, but I'm pretty sure the SCOTUS has said it's protected by the Constitution.

So, if you believe in the Constitution do you pass a law against something because it's distastefull to you? Or, as with the racists groups, do you do decline to do so, no matter how politically unpopular, because you choose to stick with your principal of adhereing to the Constitution?

Strikes me as a "damned if you do, damned if don't" type of situation for someone like Paul who touts adherence to the Constitution. If he had voted 'yes' for this I bet later someone would brought it up as an example of his being inconsistent.

Fern
 

OFFascist

Senior member
Jun 10, 2002
985
0
0
This law deals with the distribution or sale of abuse videos, not their creation.

I dont see why that should be illegal. The people who killed the animals should be charged with animal cruelty under state laws. However I dont see why someone selling videos should be charged. Its illegal to commit murder, but if I had if I was in public and had footage of a murder being committed would why should it be illegal for me to distribute my footage?
 

CanOWorms

Lifer
Jul 3, 2001
12,404
2
0
I dont see why that should be illegal. The people who killed the animals should be charged with animal cruelty under state laws. However I dont see why someone selling videos should be charged. Its illegal to commit murder, but if I had if I was in public and had footage of a murder being committed would why should it be illegal for me to distribute my footage?

A difference is that crush videos fuel the market for the illegal activity. Stopping the distribution of videos dries up the market is the argument. Stopping distribution of what you're talking about does not stop the underlying act.