They may decide to, of course he said in that interview that FP32 was a requirement and that HDR will be unique to 6800s. Why do you think they may do this, when it would contradict what they just said, and IMO, not be likely given that they are TWIMTBP developers?
They may decide to, of course he said in that interview that FP32 was a requirement and that HDR will be unique to 6800s. Why do you think they may do this, when it would contradict what they just said, and IMO, not be likely given that they are TWIMTBP developers?
Ah, but the real question is whether you'd rather have a 9800 Pro for $110 cheaper and get 75% of the performance or so.
As opposed to a $300 card that will be worth even less? That is, if anyone wants it. I don't know who would want a slow expensive AGP card at that time unless it's at a very low price point.
No, its certainly not a bad thing. The FX5200 was never a bad thing really, it was a bad card.
It must be pretty tough selling your ATI cards General. I see even over on Rage3d a lot of guys are switching to the 6800 series.
http://www.rage3d.com/board/showthread.php?t=33767440
As more games come out that use SM3 more, and other TWIMTBP developers follow suit and give nVidia users HDR and leave ATI players out of the loop, it will probably be even harder.
TWIMTBP= every developer you've ever heard of
GITG= What's that? Oh yeah, =Valve
No one who buys a GT or Ultra will miss those couple extra frames an XT can provide, and no one who gets a 6800NU and a copy of Far Cry for $300 is going to be saying "Damn. I could have bought last year's good card for a few bucks less and REALLY been behind the curve!" LOL where do you get this stuff?!
As far as "customer demand" goes BFG, I think we saw how far that goes with Shady Days. (or 3dfx and Glide)
And all of the above still leaves SLI out of the equation, when all single card solutions get to look slow and dated. Do you think HDR will run slow on SLI too BFG? And do you have any factual basis for saying it will run slow on 6800s?
Not too late to get a 6800 and see the HDR BFG- you have a R300 core already?
http://www.rage3d.com/board/showthread.php?t=33767440
As more games come out that use SM3 more, and other TWIMTBP developers follow suit and give nVidia users HDR and leave ATI players out of the loop, it will probably be even harder.
TWIMTBP= every developer you've ever heard of
GITG= What's that? Oh yeah, =Valve
No one who buys a GT or Ultra will miss those couple extra frames an XT can provide, and no one who gets a 6800NU and a copy of Far Cry for $300 is going to be saying "Damn. I could have bought last year's good card for a few bucks less and REALLY been behind the curve!" LOL where do you get this stuff?!
As far as "customer demand" goes BFG, I think we saw how far that goes with Shady Days. (or 3dfx and Glide)
And all of the above still leaves SLI out of the equation, when all single card solutions get to look slow and dated. Do you think HDR will run slow on SLI too BFG? And do you have any factual basis for saying it will run slow on 6800s?
Not too late to get a 6800 and see the HDR BFG- you have a R300 core already?
Rollo
thanks for answering my question re:noise...hmm as an ATI user with 7200/9700 pro...I am very impressed Nvidia this time..as long as noise is ok..looks like the competition is great ..now hopefully the prices will come down a bit for me
thanks for answering my question re:noise...hmm as an ATI user with 7200/9700 pro...I am very impressed Nvidia this time..as long as noise is ok..looks like the competition is great ..now hopefully the prices will come down a bit for me
I cant figure for the life of me where your "Pro nVidia" reputation comes from. Just read through this one thread. There is not a shred of nVidia bias to be found!
Wow, you're right Rollo. ATI is probably going to go bankrupt because they can't do SM3.0! What were they thinking releasing such a piece of garbage?!?
Oh, wait a moment... You used to say that SM2.0 wasn't really important and couldn't be counted as a feature until it was mainsteam and not just on a couple games.
Why the 180? Because it's NVIDIA!!!! You're not getting kickbacks from Nvidia for being such a rabid fan, are you?
At one time you said:
Better call the Coast Guard.
tho on the other hand, how many people, like me, have finished far cry months ago?
while i don't understand why crytek would dismiss 95% of the gamers who don't have sm3 h/w, i am more concerned with how upcoming apps such as D3, HL2, and Stalker will deal with this situation (i beleive they will all support HDR on both platforms). the other question of course, is performance.
as for those talking of performance, frankly nv40 should run hdr better than r420. nv40 supports 16 bit floating point internal filtering, not 32 (ati supports neither, which is why HL2 HDR is done differently) with fp16-output. the output can then be converted to FX12 or FP32.
fp16 HDR implementation on ATI is possible only if blending is not used at all or with using trick with 2 fp16 buffers (very slow).
It'll run slow on YOUR 6800. I can't believe you, of all people, are falling for this marketing ploy garbage. I guess they could rename the Voodoo 1 as a 6800 and you'd buy it, huh?
I also doubt people will dump so much money on video cards. Besides you, anyway.
That's because very few educated people are moronic enough to buy one of those cards. I guess now $180 vs $300 is a "few" bucks? I guess you compare it to the 9800 XT all the time becase its the only card that makes the 6800 look like a good value for its price.
Huh? Like this matters at all............
....and conveniently forgets to include the 5950U. I guess since it is an nVidia product, it is exempt from this "logic".
Hey, those are nice numbers. Has been about 5 years since I played anything at 1024x768, though.
Both sides here are quoting some whack numbers on prices. Frankly, we've seen 280 dollar GT's and 330 Pros but that's just promo craziness...if you going to compare the price, either use the MSRP or the average price that a normal user can get it for at a respectable retailer. I don't know where general shops but the 9800pro is usually at 200-210, and the most reasonable price one can expect to find these next gen cards at is probably 40-60 under retail online. We're probably looking at a ~50 dollar difference in the final price (stablized) of the two, and at those numbers they pretty much offer the same price/perf ratio. Take your pick, they're all fine cards. Just nobody say 9800XT or 5950 again.
I hear you. The current top crop of video cards from Nvidia and ATI as close to each other in performance as I can ever remember. You can't really lose with either one.
- Aug 22, 2001
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Shhhh! The vid card flame wars are the only entertainment around here lately, don't go ruining it!
:laugh:
Originally posted by: Regs
I still chuckle when I remember when Rollo said he would rather support a video card fromAmerica other than one from canada when the first benchmarks arrived.
Well Regs, you're sort of quoting me out of context here. I said in the absence of no other deciding factor I'd support an American company before a Canadian company.
At the time, it looked like there were no other deciding factors: the fps were about the same, there wasn't any SLI, there wasn't any SM3/3Dc/HDR happening yet, and the IQ had been judged about the same.
These days it seems pretty clear cut on the choice you have:
Is a few more fps in some games, at some settings, and possible further performance gains in a couple games worth giving up the SM3 in 12 upcoming games we know of, and HDR in some of them?
It boils down to if you're happy with 2002 tech or want to play with the 2004 tech IMO? The X800s are fine cards with stable drivers and blazing fast performance, but for me, the benching of done with SM3 and screenshots of seen of FP32 HDR make nVidia my choice this year.
(hopefully SLId in the fall)
I love that line about a "little video card pimp", thanks for the laugh.
I don't know, I'm sorry if I seem like a "little video card pimp" now. I'm pretty hepped up about the whole SLI return, and I was very impressed with the gains I saw benching SM3. Some new texture compression that amounts to a few more frames isn't enough to have me touting the X800 core these days.
The unfortunate side of my responding to fanboys is it's hard not to come off sounding like a fanboy myself.
"kickbacks from nVidia"?
Sheesh. Wouldn't that be nice?
Sorry, I just like to post about video cards, have for years and years. I think I started on AGN and 3DFX Gamers in the late 90s?
BTW- I see SM3 as a bigger issue now than I saw SM2 in the last year when I was saying that. It took the release of Far Cry and Colin McCrae in April of this year for SM2 to become a "big" issue for the nV30s. There was a long time the nV30s were out that there just weren't SM2 games out to put them at a disadvantage. (perhaps due to ATIs less than great developer relations and inability to drive the tech forward?)
Keysplayr
Elite Member
- Jan 16, 2003
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You can't make it any more obvious where your coming from General. We get the point. Your a red boy through and through and thats fine. Now stop crapping and let Rollo provide us potential nvidia customers with what we can expect from a 6800 with a rig similar to his, which he has been doing and I like others am grateful. Just can it so we can get something productive out of this thread and not have to hear you whine about things that only matter to you and whoever else cares to chime in with you.
I'm probably just as jazzed about the return of SLI as you are, Rollo, if not more so. I'm just not discounting ATI as a possible upgrade path. At the moment I'm looking at the AGP 6800GT as a replacement for my softmodded 9500. It seems to have the best bang-for-your-buck of any card currently available and overclocks quite well. But then again, so does the X800XT.
I'm just going to wait a month or so until all the cards have had a proper shakedown. Then I can read the benchmarks from the various sites and decide which ATI card and which Nvidia card would be best for my system. Once I have those two cards picked out I'll look for the best deal on each and make a decision based on price/performance/features.
You only hurt yourself by limiting your choices to a single manufacturer.
I'm just going to wait a month or so until all the cards have had a proper shakedown. Then I can read the benchmarks from the various sites and decide which ATI card and which Nvidia card would be best for my system. Once I have those two cards picked out I'll look for the best deal on each and make a decision based on price/performance/features.
You only hurt yourself by limiting your choices to a single manufacturer.
the difficult part about that is the "same ole same ole" with tech stuff: when is it time to bite the bullet and decide?
r420 rolls out, nv40's arent to be seen. the 800PRO shows fantastic speed over last gen parts, and leads almost all benches vs nv40. nv comes out with "updated" (i say that as they're still not avail from nv's site, even tho there's certainly some nv40s shipping now) driver, and "previews" of sm3 combined w/ the driver shows nv now competetive with ati, and in some cases, faster in a DX game such as far cry.
ati most likely will come up w/ improved drivers, the nv... do you get one when ati has better #'s, or when nv does? see, for performance, it's simply too close to call.
overall, the more important factors this gen seems to be personal preference, features, what's avail. and for what price.
i don't see sm3 or 3Dc having a huge impact this generation, but all else being comparable, my opinion is to go with nv40 and sm3 (among other features). in all fairness, 3Dc may show some benefits as well, however overall sm3 seems to have more potential to be the more beneficial feature, at least at this point in time.
i'll end up having both nv4x (still kickin on whether to hold out for PCIe, due mainly to an SLI option which may or may not be a feasible. too many unanswered questions at this point such as motherboards, heat, power requirements, and so on...) and r420 this gen, but at this point in time, if i had to choose one over the other, i'd go with nvidia, simply because the more useable features mean more to me than a few fps one way or the other....
r420 rolls out, nv40's arent to be seen. the 800PRO shows fantastic speed over last gen parts, and leads almost all benches vs nv40. nv comes out with "updated" (i say that as they're still not avail from nv's site, even tho there's certainly some nv40s shipping now) driver, and "previews" of sm3 combined w/ the driver shows nv now competetive with ati, and in some cases, faster in a DX game such as far cry.
ati most likely will come up w/ improved drivers, the nv... do you get one when ati has better #'s, or when nv does? see, for performance, it's simply too close to call.
overall, the more important factors this gen seems to be personal preference, features, what's avail. and for what price.
i don't see sm3 or 3Dc having a huge impact this generation, but all else being comparable, my opinion is to go with nv40 and sm3 (among other features). in all fairness, 3Dc may show some benefits as well, however overall sm3 seems to have more potential to be the more beneficial feature, at least at this point in time.
i'll end up having both nv4x (still kickin on whether to hold out for PCIe, due mainly to an SLI option which may or may not be a feasible. too many unanswered questions at this point such as motherboards, heat, power requirements, and so on...) and r420 this gen, but at this point in time, if i had to choose one over the other, i'd go with nvidia, simply because the more useable features mean more to me than a few fps one way or the other....
Keysplayr
Elite Member
- Jan 16, 2003
- 21,219
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In all honesty and my personal nvidia preference aside, ATI has a mighty pair of cards out there. And so does Nvidia have its own little beasts. I know what you mean CainaM when you say, "which damn card do I go with". You will have the luxury of having both cards and have first hand knowledge of what does what better for you. And that is a great thing to be able to do. actually looking forward to your benches on here should you be kind enough to post them. I would bet you that you would not know which card you had in your rig if you had someone else, like a friend, put the cards in at random for you. Then all you would have to do is fire up a game. Not knowing what card you have in your rig might be the very best way to get past your own bias (not that you have any, not what I'm saying) and truly choose the best card as it appears to you.
Keys
Keys
Actually, I thought it was a joke, and a funny one at that. Rollo seemed to like it as well.
The 9800XT was never a good deal. Never, ever ever! There is no point in even comparing a 9800XT to a 6800NU because they are cross generational cards focused at two totally separate markets.
The 9800XT was just a bleeding-edge money grab by ATI just like the 5950 was by Nvidia; a way to look faster in benchmarks (just like Nvidia with the 5950), while the overwhelming majority of high-end users were running 9800 Pros or 5900's.
The 6800nu is the 'bottom of the top' card in Nvidia's 6800 lineup, or, the middle of the pack overall in Nvidia's current 2004 lineup.
9800XT buyers are people who purchase bleeding edge cards (or just people who hang around Hot Deals FS/FT a lot
). 9800XT users are the kind of people who will immediately get an X800 XT (PE) or 6800U / Extreme.This is why I hate it when people say how much of a steal the 6800 (NU) is when compared to a 9800XT. Heck, a 5900XT or a 9800Pro was a steal when the 9800XT came out as well - >$100 cheaper for ~10% more speed!
Is the 6800nu a good deal? For $209 it sure is! For $259 it's still viable. But if you can get your hands on a GT for <330 or less (as some people seem to be finding), it's no longer the steal some people make it out to be. But hey, at least it's faster than a 9800XT, right
?I'd obviously never say a $300 NU is a good deal compared to a $330 GT, but I can only use MSRP and what most people people pay as a start point.
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