Rockets, Mortars keep falling on Israeli cities

[SMOGZINN]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn

Originally posted by: SMOGZINN

Originally posted by: Dman877
Why are Palestinian actions so hard for people to understand? Imagine the US government took a few million Americans and settled them in Iraqi cities, displacing the Iraqi's who lived there previously in the process. I don't care who you are, if you were on the losing end, you would be pissed enough to fight over it.

The only way to prevent this kind of 'terrorism' (quotes because in other times and for other peoples, it is called other things) is to invade your enemies and occupy them ancient Greek style; kill every male over 12 and sell the women and children into slavery. Trying to live in close proximity to a conquered people with access to the kinds of weapons we now have is just foolish.

Most of us understand why the Palestinians are so pissed. Israel needed to exist, but maybe not in that exact location. That was our bad. We didn?t foresee all the consequences of our actions when we carved out the Israeli state.
But what is done is done. Israel is not going anywhere. Palestine is not going to defeat them. So, maybe it is time they look for the next best solution.

^ why not in that location?

The Israelis have as much claim to that area as the Palestinians, probably more claim since Arabs didn't arrive in the area until over a 1000 years after the Israelis had been there.

Because after WW2 what the Jewish people needed most was a place they could live in peace and heal from the many years of tragedy that was committed aginst them by almost every place they had ever tried to settle down. Instead I am afraid we just gave them even more endless war and heartache.
They might have wanted that land, and might even have a rightful claim on it, but we should have been wise enough to see that it was not what was best for them.

 

[Steeplerot]

Originally posted by: SMOGZINN
Israel needed to exist

Why?
Just a random thought, I am sure great minds back then could come up with much better:
There is no reason they could not have been resettled back into their lands/properties in Europe.
Why not have them rebuild German/axis cities (non soviet of course) leveled by the allies and take over abandoned/neglected properties because of war? Thus saving money on the Marshall plan rebuilding Europe. win win.
I do not accept that they had to forcefully occupy another country because their god says so.
There will never be peace until this wrong is corrected now.
Well, that is unless both sides get a nice big dose of secularism in their leadership, both are infested with religious whackjobs stirring the pot.

 

[SMOGZINN]

Originally posted by: TheRedUnderURBed

Originally posted by: SMOGZINN
Israel needed to exist

Why?
Just a random thought, I am sure great minds back then could come up with much better:
There is no reason they could not have been resettled back into their lands/properties in Europe.
Why not have them rebuild German/axis cities (non soviet of course) leveled by the allies and take over abandoned/neglected properties because of war? Thus saving money on the Marshall plan rebuilding Europe. win win.
I do not accept that they had to forcefully occupy another country because their god says so.
There will never be peace until this wrong is corrected now.

Because history showed that anywhere you put them the larger non-Jewish population would eventually turn on them and blame them for all societies? woes. The only solution was to give them the ability to rule themselves.

 

[OCGuy]

Originally posted by: The Green Bean
Give them laser guided missiles if you want them to avoid civilians. I'm sorry but it's not their fault that they have been forced into a whole and there's no way for them to come out except by firing rockets that do no good. The international community must step in to make Israel stop their crimes.

Oh this is too much.


We're too busy trying to clean up the shithole that is Pakistan, so we are kind of ignoring Tel Aviv for now.

 

[Steeplerot]

Originally posted by: SMOGZINN


Because history showed that anywhere you put them the larger non-Jewish population would eventually turn on them and blame them for all societies? woes. The only solution was to give them the ability to rule themselves.

History shows this about many people, guess we should give the south to African-Americans, California to the Chinese, Boston to the Irish, and Utah to the Mormons.
That argument is not one I have heard before I must say, but sounds very silly.
The worst form of white/whatever guilt yet.
They _could_ have fought back before the Warsaw Ghetto incident, they fought hard and well and showed they could give the Nazis pure hell instead of being carted off like cattle.
Would have made a world of difference early on in world opinion also.
People love the underdog.
Take a look at world opinion and how pro-Palestinian it is (except for mainstream USA).
I am sure there would have been brigades of volunteers from overseas defending them like what was happening in the Spanish Civil war at the time.

 

[PokerGuy]

Anyone who thinks this is a one-sided problem is simply delusional. Both sides share equal blame. The Israelis are fighting for their right to exist, and the Palestinians are fighting oppression in whatever way they can. You can't blame the Palestinians for their methods, they are basically fighting with whatever they have available. Israelis shooting "smart" bombs killing civilians is no better than someone blowing themselves up and killing civilians -- end end result is the same, terror.

 

[SamurAchzar]

Originally posted by: brandonb

Yes, but add emotions into it, and you'll see people pissed off and ready to lob rockets at Israel.

These rockets came because IDF killed 3 "terrorists"

Ahh - the incident with the three "civilians" (armed men carrying explosives crawling near the border fence, you know, just like the civilians hanging about in Manhattan :roll came after the shelling. Just to set things straight, yes?

 

[EagleKeeper]

Originally posted by: TheRedUnderURBed

Originally posted by: SMOGZINN
Israel needed to exist

Why?
Just a random thought, I am sure great minds back then could come up with much better:
There is no reason they could not have been resettled back into their lands/properties in Europe.
Why not have them rebuild German/axis cities (non soviet of course) leveled by the allies and take over abandoned/neglected properties because of war? Thus saving money on the Marshall plan rebuilding Europe. win win.
I do not accept that they had to forcefully occupy another country because their god says so.
There will never be peace until this wrong is corrected now.
Well, that is unless both sides get a nice big dose of secularism in their leadership, both are infested with religious whackjobs stirring the pot.

The Jews were not attempting to forcefully take over another country.

1) There was no country there - it was close to an empty desert
2) The Jews for the previous 40+ years had been emmigrating to the area and purchasing land from the inhabitants and also improving the area.
3) The UN took the complete Middle East area of the Ottoman Empire and sliced it into sections and handed out all but one slice to the Arabs.
4) The Arabs wanted it all.


The wrong was that Germany attempted to exterminate the Jews, the Russians were willing to suppress the Jews and the rest of the world did not care what happened to the Jews.

England and the US were against helping the Jews; at the time, only France of the big 4 was friendly to their plight.

It was the Jews against the rest of the world and only a play on the world conscience was able to allow the country of Israel to be carved out of the British Mandate.

 

[SMOGZINN]

Originally posted by: TheRedUnderURBed

Originally posted by: SMOGZINN


Because history showed that anywhere you put them the larger non-Jewish population would eventually turn on them and blame them for all societies? woes. The only solution was to give them the ability to rule themselves.

History shows this about many people, guess we should give the south to African-Americans, California to the Chinese, Boston to the Irish, and Utah to the Mormons.
That argument is not one I have heard before I must say, but sounds very silly.
The worst form of white/whatever guilt yet.
They _could_ have fought back before the Warsaw Ghetto incident, they fought hard and well and showed they could give the Nazis pure hell instead of being carted off like cattle.
Would have made a world of difference early on in world opinion also.
People love the underdog.
Take a look at world opinion and how pro-Palestinian it is (except for mainstream USA).
I am sure there would have been brigades of volunteers from overseas defending them like what was happening in the Spanish Civil war at the time.

BTW just in case you are really this bad at geography the Irish and Chinese both have countries.
Are you making the argument that since we have not righted every wrong we should not attempt to right any wrong? Or that the Jews deserved what happened to them because they did not fight their oppressors hard enough?

 

[EagleKeeper]

Originally posted by: PokerGuy
Anyone who thinks this is a one-sided problem is simply delusional. Both sides share equal blame. The Israelis are fighting for their right to exist, and the Palestinians are fighting oppression in whatever way they can. You can't blame the Palestinians for their methods, they are basically fighting with whatever they have available. Israelis shooting "smart" bombs killing civilians is no better than someone blowing themselves up and killing civilians -- end end result is the same, terror.

The Pals have chosen to play the martyr because they have been told that they have no way out by their leaders and brethren. The other Arab nations have betrayed them and their leaders have also. But because they have been brainwashed, they accept their plight.

Their life under Israel "occupation" has been better than when they were under the Arab control. But the brainwashing has convinced them that they should have it all and they should not accept any responsibility for their actions past and present.

 

[SMOGZINN]

Originally posted by: PokerGuy
Anyone who thinks this is a one-sided problem is simply delusional. Both sides share equal blame. The Israelis are fighting for their right to exist, and the are fighting oppression in whatever way they can. You can't blame the Palestinians for their methods, they are basically fighting with whatever they have available. Israelis shooting "smart" bombs killing civilians is no better than someone blowing themselves up and killing civilians -- end end result is the same, terror.

Of course it is not a one sided problem. But while Israel seems ready to find a peaceful solution, Palestinians keep using the ceasefires and other peace overtures to attack from better position.

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: SMOGZINN
Because after WW2 what the Jewish people needed most was a place they could live in peace and heal from the many years of tragedy that was committed aginst them by almost every place they had ever tried to settle down. Instead I am afraid we just gave them even more endless war and heartache.
They might have wanted that land, and might even have a rightful claim on it, but we should have been wise enough to see that it was not what was best for them.

it was that land because a lot of jews were already there. they'd been moving there since the late 1800s and were up to about 330,000 by 1936 and about 600,000 after ww2.

 

[ProfJohn]

Originally posted by: SMOGZINN

Originally posted by: PokerGuy
Anyone who thinks this is a one-sided problem is simply delusional. Both sides share equal blame. The Israelis are fighting for their right to exist, and the are fighting oppression in whatever way they can. You can't blame the Palestinians for their methods, they are basically fighting with whatever they have available. Israelis shooting "smart" bombs killing civilians is no better than someone blowing themselves up and killing civilians -- end end result is the same, terror.

Of course it is not a one sided problem. But while Israel seems ready to find a peaceful solution, Palestinians keep using the ceasefires and other peace overtures to attack from better position.

Don't forget that Israel has made peace with all of its neighbors, except Syria, while the Palestinians have not made peace with anyone.

Sad all around. Who knows how or when it will end.

 

[Lemon law]

When Israel was carved out of the British mandate in 1948, it had a basic choice, it could provide equal government for both indigenous Palestinians and Jews, or it could favor Jews and expel its Palestinians.

We can see that Israel choose the path of pigs, and here we are 60 years later with the same basic tactics. The more brutal the Israeli repression, the stronger the Palestinian and Arab resistance becomes, why should we be at all surprised at a rerun of the same ole same ole.

If Israel does not find a way to defuse the Arab anger, sooner of later the weight of Arab numbers and oil wealth will doom Israel. Or some trrrorists will simply start using chemical and biologic weapons as rockets increase in range and accuracy.

I am not trying to justify past, present, or future actions of any groups, there are many wrongs on all sides, I am just saying this will be the final outcome if Israel and the other sides do not change tactics.
The Holy land of Israel, sacred to three religions, can be shared, but any that attempt to make it all theirs will know no peace.

 

[JS80]

Collateral damange, send 10x rockets/mortars for every one they get from Gaza. I don't see how hard that is. Do it until they are all in paradise with their 72 virgins.

 

[Lemon law]

Originally posted by: JS80
Collateral damange, send 10x rockets/mortars for every one they get from Gaza. I don't see how hard that is. Do it until they are all in paradise with their 72 virgins.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That has been the basic Israeli tactic for 60 years now, collective guilt for all that oppose Israel, when only small parts of any one given group does anything proactive
against Israel.

After 60 years, we can see exactly how far its gotten Israel, which is basically nowhere. As the hatreds on all sides build and build long past anything that can be contained. The only real victors are stateless terrorists that seek to thrive on more violence.

 

[JS80]

Originally posted by: Lemon law

Originally posted by: JS80
Collateral damange, send 10x rockets/mortars for every one they get from Gaza. I don't see how hard that is. Do it until they are all in paradise with their 72 virgins.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That has been the basic Israeli tactic for 60 years now, collective guilt for all that oppose Israel, when only small parts of any one given group does anything proactive
against Israel.

After 60 years, we can see exactly how far its gotten Israel, which is basically nowhere. As the hatreds on all sides build and build long past anything that can be contained. The only real victors are stateless terrorists that seek to thrive on more violence.

Bullshit, Israel bends over backwards to target the militants and reduce collateral damage. They need to switch their policy and just respond 10x the force to equivalent civilian attacks until they are all gone. There will never be peace until all jews or all palestinians are dead.

 

[Double Trouble]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn

Originally posted by: SMOGZINN

Originally posted by: PokerGuy
Anyone who thinks this is a one-sided problem is simply delusional. Both sides share equal blame. The Israelis are fighting for their right to exist, and the are fighting oppression in whatever way they can. You can't blame the Palestinians for their methods, they are basically fighting with whatever they have available. Israelis shooting "smart" bombs killing civilians is no better than someone blowing themselves up and killing civilians -- end end result is the same, terror.

Of course it is not a one sided problem. But while Israel seems ready to find a peaceful solution, Palestinians keep using the ceasefires and other peace overtures to attack from better position.

Don't forget that Israel has made peace with all of its neighbors, except Syria, while the Palestinians have not made peace with anyone.

Sad all around. Who knows how or when it will end.

I agree with pokerguy. It's easy to say "make peace", and "stop attacking" etc when you're not living under foreign hostile occupation. That does not absolve the palestinians from being responsible for the actions of their brethren, but any objective outsider can recognize that the problem is on both sides, and the hopeless / powerless palestinian situation is a breeding ground for further trouble. I dunno what the right answer is, but people can't indefinitely live under hostile foreign occupation without problems.

I understand the Israeli perspective, but they too have to realize that the current situation must change if their kids are to have hope of living a more normal life.

 

[kylebisme]

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar

Originally posted by: Dman877
Why are Palestinian actions so hard for people to understand? Imagine the US government took a few million Americans and settled them in Iraqi cities, displacing the Iraqi's who lived there previously in the process. I don't care who you are, if you were on the losing end, you would be pissed enough to fight over it.

Oh, that explains all the artillery flying to your cities from Indian reservations :roll:

No, it explains much of the fighting with the Indians over the course of hunderds of years:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W...oples_of_North_America

Originally posted by: Common Courtesy
Israel had a buffer zone (called settlements) in Gaza.

If the settlements were to act as a buffer zone, they would have been between Israel and the Palestinians, while in fact that vast majorty were nowhere close:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/furnitur...y_maps/jewish_gaza.gif

Originally posted by: Common Courtesy
A few years ago, Israel agreed to remove those settlements and in return the Palestinians would work for peace.

There was no such agreement, Israels widraw from Gaza was a unilateral act:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I...ral_disengagement_plan

Originally posted by: Common Courtesy
The day the settlements were abandoned, Israel started being shelled.

Yet well before Israel started being shelled, they were already making plans to move many o those settlers to Palestinian territory in the West Bank.

http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G1-113012715.html

I'll stop there as I surely that is enough to demonstrate the fact that you pathology distort reality in your condemnations of Palestinians.

Originally posted by: ProfJohn
The Israelis have as much claim to that area as the Palestinians, probably more claim since Arabs didn't arrive in the area until over a 1000 years after the Israelis had been there.

How do you get that after you just pointed out the fact that:

Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Genetically both sides have been traced back thousands of years and both sides are essentially descendent from the same group of early humans.

Eh?

Originally posted by: ElFenix

Originally posted by: SMOGZINN
Because after WW2 what the Jewish people needed most was a place they could live in peace and heal from the many years of tragedy that was committed aginst them by almost every place they had ever tried to settle down. Instead I am afraid we just gave them even more endless war and heartache.
They might have wanted that land, and might even have a rightful claim on it, but we should have been wise enough to see that it was not what was best for them.

it was that land because a lot of jews were already there. they'd been moving there since the late 1800s and were up to about 330,000 by 1936 and about 600,000 after ww2.

Yet there were 10 times more non-jews well into the 1900s, even after WWII Jews still made up less than one third of the population.

 

[SMOGZINN]

Originally posted by: Double Trouble

Originally posted by: ProfJohn

Originally posted by: SMOGZINN

Originally posted by: PokerGuy
Anyone who thinks this is a one-sided problem is simply delusional. Both sides share equal blame. The Israelis are fighting for their right to exist, and the are fighting oppression in whatever way they can. You can't blame the Palestinians for their methods, they are basically fighting with whatever they have available. Israelis shooting "smart" bombs killing civilians is no better than someone blowing themselves up and killing civilians -- end end result is the same, terror.

Of course it is not a one sided problem. But while Israel seems ready to find a peaceful solution, Palestinians keep using the ceasefires and other peace overtures to attack from better position.

Don't forget that Israel has made peace with all of its neighbors, except Syria, while the Palestinians have not made peace with anyone.

Sad all around. Who knows how or when it will end.

I agree with pokerguy. It's easy to say "make peace", and "stop attacking" etc when you're not living under foreign hostile occupation. That does not absolve the palestinians from being responsible for the actions of their brethren, but any objective outsider can recognize that the problem is on both sides, and the hopeless / powerless palestinian situation is a breeding ground for further trouble. I dunno what the right answer is, but people can't indefinitely live under hostile foreign occupation without problems.

I understand the Israeli perspective, but they too have to realize that the current situation must change if their kids are to have hope of living a more normal life.

The thing is the only way it can change if for the Palestinians to stop fighting.
I think we can all agree that Israel is not going anywhere.
So all this fighting is pointless.

 

[tvarad]

Originally posted by: Lemon law

Originally posted by: JS80
Collateral damange, send 10x rockets/mortars for every one they get from Gaza. I don't see how hard that is. Do it until they are all in paradise with their 72 virgins.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That has been the basic Israeli tactic for 60 years now, collective guilt for all that oppose Israel, when only small parts of any one given group does anything proactive
against Israel.

After 60 years, we can see exactly how far its gotten Israel, which is basically nowhere. As the hatreds on all sides build and build long past anything that can be contained. The only real victors are stateless terrorists that seek to thrive on more violence.

I see it differently. Terrorism is the price we pay for the fact that we don't allow the Naziesque agenda of pan-Islamists to take root (with the partition of Palestine being equivalent to the Versailles treaty in their eyes). If it did, the result would be a total loss of our freedoms as well as destruction a couple of magnitudes greater than in WWII.

 

[kylebisme]

Originally posted by: SMOGZINN
The thing is the only way it can change if for the Palestinians to stop fighting.
I think we can all agree that Israel is not going anywhere.
So all this fighting is pointless.

There was a lot less fighting in previous decades, and even now it is only a small minority of the Palestinians attacking Israel. However, for the last four decades Israel has been going somewhere regardless of how few Palestinians attacked them, continuing to colonize much of what little land the Palestine still hold claim to.

http://www.peaceways.net/westbank_en.jpg

 

[jamesall]

peace will come, if hamas is gone period. Hams has done more harm to the Palestinians than anyone.

 

[kylebisme]

Israel has been occupying and colonizing Palestine since long before Hamas existed. How do you figure getting rid of Hamas would change that now?

 

[Nebor]

Originally posted by: Lemon law

Originally posted by: JS80
Collateral damange, send 10x rockets/mortars for every one they get from Gaza. I don't see how hard that is. Do it until they are all in paradise with their 72 virgins.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That has been the basic Israeli tactic for 60 years now, collective guilt for all that oppose Israel, when only small parts of any one given group does anything proactive
against Israel.

After 60 years, we can see exactly how far its gotten Israel, which is basically nowhere. As the hatreds on all sides build and build long past anything that can be contained. The only real victors are stateless terrorists that seek to thrive on more violence.

It needs to be stepped up. Give the Israelis the Air Defense Artillery radar technology used in Iraq to backtrack enemy indirect fire. Fire back at those positions with enough ordinance to guarantee destruction of the target, no matter if it's in a school yard or a hospital.