Road to Guantanamo

[palehorse]

the couch warriors of P&N! get some!

Please never again try to educate me on the Taliban. Every single one of you thinks they know the whole story, while, in fact, you know about 1% of the story. The taliban are NOT nice people, even the "foot soldiers" as you describe them. In fact, the majority of those foot soldiers make Osama look like Mr. Rogers, in terms of their fundamentalist beliefs. The reason that they were so quick to support Osama and his ilk was because he, unlike most Afghans, offered them the freedom to oppress as many people as possible. They are just as sick, or more sick, than the wahabi's and others throughout fanatical Islam.

i love to say it: get.a.fvcking.clue.

And the next time you think about dismissing the Taliban as non-factors in this war on terror, i'd like you to star at the pictures of the marines who were killed in eastern Afghanistan this week. Stare for a while and think about how screwed up the Taliban remain. They are just as much our enemy as Osama, and always will be. I've SEEN the bodies of women and children that they so callously destroyed out of sheer fanaticism. and for what? for running a school for kids of either sex. for that, the women, teachers, and children had to die?

ya... again, fvck the Talban, and fvck anybody who thinks they deserve some sort of free life.

 

[kylebisme]

fvck any man who judges others as a group rather than as the indviduals they are.

 

[GrGr]

Originally posted by: palehorse74
the couch warriors of P&N! get some!

Please never again try to educate me on the Taliban. Every single one of you thinks they know the whole story, while, in fact, you know about 1% of the story. The taliban are NOT nice people, even the "foot soldiers" as you describe them. In fact, the majority of those foot soldiers make Osama look like Mr. Rogers, in terms of their fundamentalist beliefs. The reason that they were so quick to support Osama and his ilk was because he, unlike most Afghans, offered them the freedom to oppress as many people as possible. They are just as sick, or more sick, than the wahabi's and others throughout fanatical Islam.

i love to say it: get.a.fvcking.clue.

And the next time you think about dismissing the Taliban as non-factors in this war on terror, i'd like you to star at the pictures of the marines who were killed in eastern Afghanistan this week. Stare for a while and think about how screwed up the Taliban remain. They are just as much our enemy as Osama, and always will be. I've SEEN the bodies of women and children that they so callously destroyed out of sheer fanaticism. and for what? for running a school for kids of either sex. for that, the women, teachers, and children had to die?

ya... again, fvck the Talban, and fvck anybody who thinks they deserve some sort of free life.

The Taliban came out of the refugee camps created by the war in Afghanistan. Presidents Carter and Reagan supported the fundamentalists and created a monster. The monsters created by President George W Bush will be even worse.

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: GrGr

Originally posted by: palehorse74
the couch warriors of P&N! get some!

Please never again try to educate me on the Taliban. Every single one of you thinks they know the whole story, while, in fact, you know about 1% of the story. The taliban are NOT nice people, even the "foot soldiers" as you describe them. In fact, the majority of those foot soldiers make Osama look like Mr. Rogers, in terms of their fundamentalist beliefs. The reason that they were so quick to support Osama and his ilk was because he, unlike most Afghans, offered them the freedom to oppress as many people as possible. They are just as sick, or more sick, than the wahabi's and others throughout fanatical Islam.

i love to say it: get.a.fvcking.clue.

And the next time you think about dismissing the Taliban as non-factors in this war on terror, i'd like you to star at the pictures of the marines who were killed in eastern Afghanistan this week. Stare for a while and think about how screwed up the Taliban remain. They are just as much our enemy as Osama, and always will be. I've SEEN the bodies of women and children that they so callously destroyed out of sheer fanaticism. and for what? for running a school for kids of either sex. for that, the women, teachers, and children had to die?

ya... again, fvck the Talban, and fvck anybody who thinks they deserve some sort of free life.

The Taliban came out of the refugee camps created by the war in Afghanistan. Presidents Carter and Reagan supported the fundamentalists and created a monster. The monsters created by President George W Bush will be even worse.

do you ever get tired carrying around all of that self-imposed guilt?

 

[Buck Armstrong]

Originally posted by: TheSnowman
fvck any man who judges others as a group rather than as the indviduals they are.

So "fvck Muslims" is in effect what you're saying? Or are Jews exempt from that rule?

 

[GeNome]

Originally posted by: GrGr

Originally posted by: palehorse74
the couch warriors of P&N! get some!

Please never again try to educate me on the Taliban. Every single one of you thinks they know the whole story, while, in fact, you know about 1% of the story. The taliban are NOT nice people, even the "foot soldiers" as you describe them. In fact, the majority of those foot soldiers make Osama look like Mr. Rogers, in terms of their fundamentalist beliefs. The reason that they were so quick to support Osama and his ilk was because he, unlike most Afghans, offered them the freedom to oppress as many people as possible. They are just as sick, or more sick, than the wahabi's and others throughout fanatical Islam.

i love to say it: get.a.fvcking.clue.

And the next time you think about dismissing the Taliban as non-factors in this war on terror, i'd like you to star at the pictures of the marines who were killed in eastern Afghanistan this week. Stare for a while and think about how screwed up the Taliban remain. They are just as much our enemy as Osama, and always will be. I've SEEN the bodies of women and children that they so callously destroyed out of sheer fanaticism. and for what? for running a school for kids of either sex. for that, the women, teachers, and children had to die?

ya... again, fvck the Talban, and fvck anybody who thinks they deserve some sort of free life.

The Taliban came out of the refugee camps created by the war in Afghanistan. Presidents Carter and Reagan supported the fundamentalists and created a monster. The monsters created by President George W Bush will be even worse.

GrGr's right. The Taliban was formed after the war with Russia in the late 80's/early 90's. They were "originally" the Mujahidin (sp?) warriors, who we supported through the ISI in Pakistan. Although some may argue that we didn't directly support them, we still gave them weapons and aid. The Taliban is just the remnants of the "civil war" and ensuing colapse of any type of real government in Afghanistan, made up mostly of war orphans and refugees.

I agree that the Taliban as a mindset is a bad thing, but I do not think that they are below basic human rights.

 

[Tab]

Originally posted by: GeNome

Originally posted by: GrGr

Originally posted by: palehorse74
the couch warriors of P&N! get some!

Please never again try to educate me on the Taliban. Every single one of you thinks they know the whole story, while, in fact, you know about 1% of the story. The taliban are NOT nice people, even the "foot soldiers" as you describe them. In fact, the majority of those foot soldiers make Osama look like Mr. Rogers, in terms of their fundamentalist beliefs. The reason that they were so quick to support Osama and his ilk was because he, unlike most Afghans, offered them the freedom to oppress as many people as possible. They are just as sick, or more sick, than the wahabi's and others throughout fanatical Islam.

i love to say it: get.a.fvcking.clue.

And the next time you think about dismissing the Taliban as non-factors in this war on terror, i'd like you to star at the pictures of the marines who were killed in eastern Afghanistan this week. Stare for a while and think about how screwed up the Taliban remain. They are just as much our enemy as Osama, and always will be. I've SEEN the bodies of women and children that they so callously destroyed out of sheer fanaticism. and for what? for running a school for kids of either sex. for that, the women, teachers, and children had to die?

ya... again, fvck the Talban, and fvck anybody who thinks they deserve some sort of free life.

The Taliban came out of the refugee camps created by the war in Afghanistan. Presidents Carter and Reagan supported the fundamentalists and created a monster. The monsters created by President George W Bush will be even worse.

GrGr's right. The Taliban was formed after the war with Russia in the late 80's/early 90's. They were "originally" the Mujahidin (sp?) warriors, who we supported through the ISI in Pakistan. Although some may argue that we didn't directly support them, we still gave them weapons and aid. The Taliban is just the remnants of the "civil war" and ensuing colapse of any type of real government in Afghanistan, made up mostly of war orphans and refugees.

I agree that the Taliban as a mindset is a bad thing, but I do not think that they are below basic human rights.

I don't think I've ever seen a single person below basic human rights...

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: palehorse74
the couch warriors of P&N! get some!

Please never again try to educate me on the Taliban. Every single one of you thinks they know the whole story, while, in fact, you know about 1% of the story. The taliban are NOT nice people, even the "foot soldiers" as you describe them. In fact, the majority of those foot soldiers make Osama look like Mr. Rogers, in terms of their fundamentalist beliefs. The reason that they were so quick to support Osama and his ilk was because he, unlike most Afghans, offered them the freedom to oppress as many people as possible. They are just as sick, or more sick, than the wahabi's and others throughout fanatical Islam.

i love to say it: get.a.fvcking.clue.

And the next time you think about dismissing the Taliban as non-factors in this war on terror, i'd like you to star at the pictures of the marines who were killed in eastern Afghanistan this week. Stare for a while and think about how screwed up the Taliban remain. They are just as much our enemy as Osama, and always will be. I've SEEN the bodies of women and children that they so callously destroyed out of sheer fanaticism. and for what? for running a school for kids of either sex. for that, the women, teachers, and children had to die?

ya... again, fvck the Talban, and fvck anybody who thinks they deserve some sort of free life.

So are you 100% sure that every single person we've detained is one of those bad guys? Are you POSITIVE that all your pent up rage is directed at the right people? Here in the much calmer US, people are falsly accused of crimes all the time...what makes you think the same thing NEVER happens in a country that is much less stable and together? Does your anger at people who are admittedly bad people make it ok for you to mistreat people just because you suspect they might be bad guys?

You've fallen into the trap of becoming so clouded with rage that you feel justified in whatever action you and others take, simply because the people we are fighting are bad guys. And they are, no doubt about that, but you've totally lost sight of the big picture. Even if every single person we were detaining was a murdering Taliban warlord, that wouldn't justify some of the things we're doing. But we don't even know that they are...there is a lot of evidence to suggest that there are at least some innocent people we've imprisoned, but you hardly seem to care...justifying it by an emotional appeal to look at the pictures of dead soldiers.

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: TheSnowman
fvck any man who judges others as a group rather than as the indviduals they are.

That's really the "road to Guantanamo". As soon as you're decided that everyone in a particular group is an evil sub-human, and that everyone you target is a member of that group, you feel justified in doing just about anything to them. Not a good situation...we become dangerously close to the people we're fighting.

 

[kylebisme]

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: TheSnowman
fvck any man who judges others as a group rather than as the indviduals they are.

That's really the "road to Guantanamo". As soon as you're decided that everyone in a particular group is an evil sub-human, and that everyone you target is a member of that group, you feel justified in doing just about anything to them. Not a good situation...we become dangerously close to the people we're fighting.

Exactly. It is the road taken by those who carried out the 9/11 attacks, taken by Sadman against the Kurds, taken by the murders at Auschwitz. It is a road which has lead to countless other tragedies throughout history, and a road which we damn well should have learned by now to stay the fvck off of.

Originally posted by: Buck Armstrong

Originally posted by: TheSnowman
fvck any man who judges others as a group rather than as the indviduals they are.

So "fvck Muslims" is in effect what you're saying? Or are Jews exempt from that rule?

No, my statement doesn't apply to any group; be it Muslims, Jews, or otherwise. But you just showed yourself to be man who judges others as a group rather than as the individuals they are, so unless you can see the error of your ways and overcome your generalization, my statement does apply to you.

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: palehorse74
the couch warriors of P&N! get some!

Please never again try to educate me on the Taliban. Every single one of you thinks they know the whole story, while, in fact, you know about 1% of the story. The taliban are NOT nice people, even the "foot soldiers" as you describe them. In fact, the majority of those foot soldiers make Osama look like Mr. Rogers, in terms of their fundamentalist beliefs. The reason that they were so quick to support Osama and his ilk was because he, unlike most Afghans, offered them the freedom to oppress as many people as possible. They are just as sick, or more sick, than the wahabi's and others throughout fanatical Islam.

i love to say it: get.a.fvcking.clue.

And the next time you think about dismissing the Taliban as non-factors in this war on terror, i'd like you to star at the pictures of the marines who were killed in eastern Afghanistan this week. Stare for a while and think about how screwed up the Taliban remain. They are just as much our enemy as Osama, and always will be. I've SEEN the bodies of women and children that they so callously destroyed out of sheer fanaticism. and for what? for running a school for kids of either sex. for that, the women, teachers, and children had to die?

ya... again, fvck the Talban, and fvck anybody who thinks they deserve some sort of free life.

So are you 100% sure that every single person we've detained is one of those bad guys? Are you POSITIVE that all your pent up rage is directed at the right people? Here in the much calmer US, people are falsly accused of crimes all the time...what makes you think the same thing NEVER happens in a country that is much less stable and together? Does your anger at people who are admittedly bad people make it ok for you to mistreat people just because you suspect they might be bad guys?

You've fallen into the trap of becoming so clouded with rage that you feel justified in whatever action you and others take, simply because the people we are fighting are bad guys. And they are, no doubt about that, but you've totally lost sight of the big picture. Even if every single person we were detaining was a murdering Taliban warlord, that wouldn't justify some of the things we're doing. But we don't even know that they are...there is a lot of evidence to suggest that there are at least some innocent people we've imprisoned, but you hardly seem to care...justifying it by an emotional appeal to look at the pictures of dead soldiers.

After 5 years of warfare, there are less than 500 prisoners at Gitmo. If we were so careless in our screening, dont you think that number would be a bit higher?

 

[Bowfinger]

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: palehorse74
the couch warriors of P&N! get some!

Please never again try to educate me on the Taliban. Every single one of you thinks they know the whole story, while, in fact, you know about 1% of the story. The taliban are NOT nice people, even the "foot soldiers" as you describe them. In fact, the majority of those foot soldiers make Osama look like Mr. Rogers, in terms of their fundamentalist beliefs. The reason that they were so quick to support Osama and his ilk was because he, unlike most Afghans, offered them the freedom to oppress as many people as possible. They are just as sick, or more sick, than the wahabi's and others throughout fanatical Islam.

i love to say it: get.a.fvcking.clue.

And the next time you think about dismissing the Taliban as non-factors in this war on terror, i'd like you to star at the pictures of the marines who were killed in eastern Afghanistan this week. Stare for a while and think about how screwed up the Taliban remain. They are just as much our enemy as Osama, and always will be. I've SEEN the bodies of women and children that they so callously destroyed out of sheer fanaticism. and for what? for running a school for kids of either sex. for that, the women, teachers, and children had to die?

ya... again, fvck the Talban, and fvck anybody who thinks they deserve some sort of free life.

So are you 100% sure that every single person we've detained is one of those bad guys? Are you POSITIVE that all your pent up rage is directed at the right people? Here in the much calmer US, people are falsly accused of crimes all the time...what makes you think the same thing NEVER happens in a country that is much less stable and together? Does your anger at people who are admittedly bad people make it ok for you to mistreat people just because you suspect they might be bad guys?

You've fallen into the trap of becoming so clouded with rage that you feel justified in whatever action you and others take, simply because the people we are fighting are bad guys. And they are, no doubt about that, but you've totally lost sight of the big picture. Even if every single person we were detaining was a murdering Taliban warlord, that wouldn't justify some of the things we're doing. But we don't even know that they are...there is a lot of evidence to suggest that there are at least some innocent people we've imprisoned, but you hardly seem to care...justifying it by an emotional appeal to look at the pictures of dead soldiers.

After 5 years of warfare, there are less than 500 prisoners at Gitmo. If we were so careless in our screening, dont you think that number would be a bit higher?

You're evading the question.

 

[keird]

While some on this forum malign Palehorse74?s opinion, I support him. My country?s enemies would have no compunction, whatsoever; of killing every detractor of theirs - had they the ability. The moral equivalency my countrymen somehow bestow upon the enemies of our nation is disturbing. A press that reveals our tactics, techniques and procedures used to defeat our enemies, as well as announcing to the world every falter of our military and administration is unconscionable. I wonder at my country?s destructive force that could decimate an entire nation through conventional means, alone. Could anyone on this forum deny that the combined conventional arms of the United States couldn?t lay waste to enemy ridden areas of Iraq or Afghanistan? We did. But with restraint. Our enemy?s survival seems to be dependent upon this general restraint of American forces. There is strength exuded by us in our humanity towards our prisoners ? don?t ever mistake that for being kind towards them.

Does anyone on this forum really believes that they would be murdered for making a disparaging remark to Palehorse?s face, whether about his opinion, his Army or his country? I doubt it. My country?s citizens enjoy the expectation of free speech and can reasonably assume that they wouldn?t be murdered for speaking their opinions. Can a detractor of the Taliban or Al Qaeda reasonably assume that they are free to voice their dissent to them? To their masked faces while they wield an AK-47? They are murderers that live, hide and flee to wherever they can spew their hate and impose their will. Insurgents that wear no uniform are regularly captured alive and imprisoned. All the while, captured enemy combatants sit ? impotent, but alive ? in an air conditioned prison at GTMO. I hope that they?re imprisoned until the cessation of hostilities. They understand that they will probably live, but my nation?s detractors point to all the exceptions and claim that we?re just as bad as terrorists. Despite videos depicting the graphic beheading of hostages, there are those that still claim my nation is evil? Despite the regular, intentional targeting of civilians with mortars, IEDs, VBIEDs, RPGs as well as bullets ? there are those in my nation that rationalize those atrocities with regrettable excerpts of my nations past. Yet those detractors know that they?re safe. They are certain of it. They write to Palehorse74 and tell him that they don?t agree with his opinions, on a public forum, no less.

Guess what? Call me simplistic or misguided, but my Mom taught me right from wrong. I wear a uniform; I carry weapons, ammunition and equipment that many of your tax dollars paid for. While the forces arrayed against my country are formidable and complex, I?ll still fight them and train others to fight them. A myopic view? Whatever. There will be another Commander-in-Chief in a couple of years; I?ll follow their lawful orders, too. And for those that disagree with me: whatever, just keep paying your taxes.

And don?t forget to vote.

 

[FrancesBeansRevenge]

Originally posted by: keird
Call me simplistic or misguided, but my Mom taught me right from wrong.

I don't think you're simplistic or misguided... you are, in fact, doing exactly what you were trained to do. Your position is as surprising, and objective, as Tom Cruise's position on Scientology or Santa's position on Christmas.

Those, like you, who would restrict freedom of the press are much more a danger to the average American than any terrorist is. I fully expect the enemies of our nation to spit upon the values and ideals represented in our constitution.... but it's sad to see it from someone sworn to uphold that document.

I have no expectations of my enemies but great expectations of myself and my country. This is what separates 'us' from 'them'. We are more progressive, more civilised and far more humane and should act as such at every single turn.

BTW, what did your mother teach you about violently attacking those who haven't attacked you?

 

[keird]

FrancesBeansRevenge: Are you Australian? Your info gives that as a location.

I swore to support and defend this document. That oath is found here.

The law of land warfare that I'm obligated to follow can be read here.

Further, I'm subject to the laws found in the U.C.M.J.

Oh. My mother did not teach me how to violently attack those who haven't attacked me, assault an objective, react to enemy contact nor even to defend myself. Heck she didn't even teach me how to put on a tourniquet or start an I.V. Go figure. Thanks for the troll bait, though. Yum.

 

[FrancesBeansRevenge]

Originally posted by: keird
FrancesBeansRevenge: Are you Australian? Your info gives that as a location.

If I am using 'our' in reference to the American constitution what would your best guess at my nationality be? I mean, is it a difficult conclusion to draw?

Americans live and work all over the world. Imagine that.

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: palehorse74
the couch warriors of P&N! get some!

Please never again try to educate me on the Taliban. Every single one of you thinks they know the whole story, while, in fact, you know about 1% of the story. The taliban are NOT nice people, even the "foot soldiers" as you describe them. In fact, the majority of those foot soldiers make Osama look like Mr. Rogers, in terms of their fundamentalist beliefs. The reason that they were so quick to support Osama and his ilk was because he, unlike most Afghans, offered them the freedom to oppress as many people as possible. They are just as sick, or more sick, than the wahabi's and others throughout fanatical Islam.

i love to say it: get.a.fvcking.clue.

And the next time you think about dismissing the Taliban as non-factors in this war on terror, i'd like you to star at the pictures of the marines who were killed in eastern Afghanistan this week. Stare for a while and think about how screwed up the Taliban remain. They are just as much our enemy as Osama, and always will be. I've SEEN the bodies of women and children that they so callously destroyed out of sheer fanaticism. and for what? for running a school for kids of either sex. for that, the women, teachers, and children had to die?

ya... again, fvck the Talban, and fvck anybody who thinks they deserve some sort of free life.

So are you 100% sure that every single person we've detained is one of those bad guys? Are you POSITIVE that all your pent up rage is directed at the right people? Here in the much calmer US, people are falsly accused of crimes all the time...what makes you think the same thing NEVER happens in a country that is much less stable and together? Does your anger at people who are admittedly bad people make it ok for you to mistreat people just because you suspect they might be bad guys?

You've fallen into the trap of becoming so clouded with rage that you feel justified in whatever action you and others take, simply because the people we are fighting are bad guys. And they are, no doubt about that, but you've totally lost sight of the big picture. Even if every single person we were detaining was a murdering Taliban warlord, that wouldn't justify some of the things we're doing. But we don't even know that they are...there is a lot of evidence to suggest that there are at least some innocent people we've imprisoned, but you hardly seem to care...justifying it by an emotional appeal to look at the pictures of dead soldiers.

After 5 years of warfare, there are less than 500 prisoners at Gitmo. If we were so careless in our screening, dont you think that number would be a bit higher?

I don't know, I can think of a lot of reasons we'd have a fairly small number of people with many of them being innocent. But that's not really the point, is it? You're having to argue based on fairly flawed deductive (or possibly inductive) logic and I'm left to argue that there are other possible explanations...because neither of us KNOW what's going on down there. That was the point I was trying to make. You seem so sure that you're hating the right people, but you can't even come up with a decent argument backing that up.

 

[keird]

Originally posted by: FrancesBeansRevenge

Originally posted by: keird
FrancesBeansRevenge: Are you Australian? Your info gives that as a location.

If I am using 'our' in reference to the American constitution what would your best guess at my nationality be? I mean, is it a difficult conclusion to draw?

It's cool how you answered my simple question with more questions and even attempted to berate my logic/reading comprehension in those two short sentences. I?m beginning to form an opinion of you. If I don?t make an assumption of someone?s citizenship and simply ask them for clarity, consider it polite. If I don?t point out a flaw in the quote above, consider it polite.

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: keird
While some on this forum malign Palehorse74?s opinion, I support him. My country?s enemies would have no compunction, whatsoever; of killing every detractor of theirs - had they the ability. The moral equivalency my countrymen somehow bestow upon the enemies of our nation is disturbing. A press that reveals our tactics, techniques and procedures used to defeat our enemies, as well as announcing to the world every falter of our military and administration is unconscionable. I wonder at my country?s destructive force that could decimate an entire nation through conventional means, alone. Could anyone on this forum deny that the combined conventional arms of the United States couldn?t lay waste to enemy ridden areas of Iraq or Afghanistan? We did. But with restraint. Our enemy?s survival seems to be dependent upon this general restraint of American forces. There is strength exuded by us in our humanity towards our prisoners ? don?t ever mistake that for being kind towards them.

Does anyone on this forum really believes that they would be murdered for making a disparaging remark to Palehorse?s face, whether about his opinion, his Army or his country? I doubt it. My country?s citizens enjoy the expectation of free speech and can reasonably assume that they wouldn?t be murdered for speaking their opinions. Can a detractor of the Taliban or Al Qaeda reasonably assume that they are free to voice their dissent to them? To their masked faces while they wield an AK-47? They are murderers that live, hide and flee to wherever they can spew their hate and impose their will. Insurgents that wear no uniform are regularly captured alive and imprisoned. All the while, captured enemy combatants sit ? impotent, but alive ? in an air conditioned prison at GTMO. I hope that they?re imprisoned until the cessation of hostilities. They understand that they will probably live, but my nation?s detractors point to all the exceptions and claim that we?re just as bad as terrorists. Despite videos depicting the graphic beheading of hostages, there are those that still claim my nation is evil? Despite the regular, intentional targeting of civilians with mortars, IEDs, VBIEDs, RPGs as well as bullets ? there are those in my nation that rationalize those atrocities with regrettable excerpts of my nations past. Yet those detractors know that they?re safe. They are certain of it. They write to Palehorse74 and tell him that they don?t agree with his opinions, on a public forum, no less.

Guess what? Call me simplistic or misguided, but my Mom taught me right from wrong. I wear a uniform; I carry weapons, ammunition and equipment that many of your tax dollars paid for. While the forces arrayed against my country are formidable and complex, I?ll still fight them and train others to fight them. A myopic view? Whatever. There will be another Commander-in-Chief in a couple of years; I?ll follow their lawful orders, too. And for those that disagree with me: whatever, just keep paying your taxes.

And don?t forget to vote.

You know what bothers me most about you guys? It's not your particular views on issues like national security. I think you're wrong, but that doesn't really bother me. What bugs me is this smugly superior, condescending lecturing about how you (and only you) care about protecting this country. The idea that some of us think that it's equally important to guard the moral foundation of this country as well as the physical one not only doesn't occur to you, when people bring it up, you accuse them of all sorts of nasty things. The idea that wearning the handcuffs of civilized society even during the most challenging times isn't about who our enemies are, it's about who WE are, looks to you guys like nothing so much as traitorous, anti-American thoughts.

But as obnoxious as that is, it's not quite a bad as assuming you (and only you) are DOING something to protect this country. You guys make all sorts of noise about your military service, using it for nothing so much as a club to bash people you don't agree with, and all through it there is this unspoken assumption that nobody else has your special viewpoint. Which is kind of a funny attitude for a semi-anonymous internet forum. There are some obvious examples here of people who disagree with you and Palehorse, AND have served in the military (DonVito being an obvious example), most of whom are (thankfully) not quite so flamboyant about it. But I'd wager that there are at least a few people here who have served their country in various ways and just have the good taste not to cheapen that service by using it to score political points...and I'd also wager that more than a few of them disagree with you as well.

My Mom (and Dad) taught me right from wrong too, and the most important thing they taught me was that right and wrong aren't always determined by the obnoxious tool waving the flag. In fact, my Dad always taught me that if you want to be sure you're doing the right thing, 9 times out of 10 it's a safe bet to do the opposite of what the guy shouting the loudest about patriotism is doing. Patriotism is a funny thing, the real stuff almost always goes without saying. And when it doesn't, it's a pretty sure sign that somebody is full of crap.

And for what's it worth, not that you'll listen, I think the BEST way to defend my country against terrorism is to oppose the idiot ideas you and Palehorse support. This is partly about being able to sleep at night (good old liberal guilt), but it's mostly about doing what's best for protecting this country. You guys never seem to realize this, probably because you're blinded by your own ego, but a lot of us don't oppose your views on the war against terrorism because we want to hold hands with terrorists and sing camping songs...but because we think you're going to destroy this country.

 

[FrancesBeansRevenge]

Originally posted by: keird
I?m beginning to form an opinion of you.

That's handy since I've already formed a rather negative opinion of you when I read this "A press that reveals our tactics, techniques and procedures used to defeat our enemies, as well as announcing to the world every falter of our military and administration is unconscionable". See, that bolded part is, IMHO, one of the greatest strengths of this fine nation of ours.

At least we both now know how much of a dangerous lunatic the other is.

 

[FrancesBeansRevenge]

Originally posted by: Rainsford
In fact, my Dad always taught me that if you want to be sure you're doing the right thing, 9 times out of 10 it's a safe bet to do the opposite of what the guy shouting the loudest about patriotism is doing.

He sounds like a wise guy and a great dad to have

 

[keird]

Originally posted by: FrancesBeansRevenge

Originally posted by: keird
I?m beginning to form an opinion of you.

That's handy since I've already formed a rather negative opinion of you when I read this "A press that reveals our tactics, techniques and procedures used to defeat our enemies, as well as announcing to the world every falter of our military and administration is unconscionable". See, that bolded part is, IMHO, one of the greatest strengths of this fine nation of ours.

At least we both now know how much of a dangerous lunatic the other is.

Indeed we do.

 

[Starbuck1975]

From what I have read about the three men detained in Guantanamo, the story of how they ended up in Afghanistan and subsequently captured by American forces, doesn't really add up.

These three gentlemen travel to Pakistan to celebrate one of the three's wedding...they are somehow convinced by an Imam to undertake a "humanitarian" mission in Afghanistan, which somehow landed them in a Taliban base...from which they were ultimately captured.

Hmmm let's see...three British citizens of Middle Eastern heritage travel to Afghanistan and are captured in a Taliban base by American forces...hard to see how American forces could have made the mistake of assuming they had traveled to Afghanistan to engage in jihad against the infidel Americans.

This movie is only credible if you work from the assumption that their story is truthful and valid.

In times of war, the capture of enemy combatants does not require a trial...they are POWs...however, terrorists are a bit unique in that they do not necessarily fall under the protection of a sovereign nation because they are fighting for an ideology.

However, reports of torture from Guantanamo are simply unacceptable...I have no problem with holding terrorists as POWs, which means they remain prisoners until the war is officially over, through the signing of a treaty or armistice...however, as captives, it is essential that we treat our prisoners with dignity and respect, in accordance with the Geneva Convention and our values as a nation.

I am reasonably convinced that the Tipton Three are full of it, and were very much there for jihad...however, that doesn't justify their torture.

This film will foster discussion and debate, which is a good thing, even if I suspect that the film relies entirely on accounts from the Tipton Three as truth.

 

[FrancesBeansRevenge]

Originally posted by: Starbuck1975
...which means they remain prisoners until the war is officially over

Until which 'war' is over?

The war against the Taliban?
The war against Al Qaeda?
The war against Iraq?
The drums-are-beating-for war in Iran?
The war against the ideals of militant Islam?
The impossible-to-define-let-alone-win 'War on Terror'?

Do we hold them without charge until everyone in the M.E. either loves us or is dead?
Whats the plan?

 

[kylebisme]

Originally posted by: keird

Originally posted by: FrancesBeansRevenge

Originally posted by: keird
FrancesBeansRevenge: Are you Australian? Your info gives that as a location.

If I am using 'our' in reference to the American constitution what would your best guess at my nationality be? I mean, is it a difficult conclusion to draw?

It's cool how you answered my simple question with more questions and even attempted to berate my logic/reading comprehension in those two short sentences. I?m beginning to form an opinion of you. If I don?t make an assumption of someone?s citizenship and simply ask them for clarity, consider it polite. If I don?t point out a flaw in the quote above, consider it polite.

It's just rather absurd that you went so far to click on his profile looking for your hollow argument agiant him.