Road Rage much?

[yllus]

Originally posted by: LTC8K6
The driver was going West on the Eastbound sidewalk when he hit the cyclist and the argument ensued.

The driver will get little sympathy, imo.

Uh, you seriously think that's how it happened? The ex-Attorney General of the province, and new head of all things economic for Canada's largest city, piloted his Saab convertible onto the sidewalk of one of Toronto's most prominent downtown roads, going in the wrong direction?

 

[dainthomas]

Originally posted by: yllus

Originally posted by: LTC8K6
The driver was going West on the Eastbound sidewalk when he hit the cyclist and the argument ensued.

The driver will get little sympathy, imo.

Uh, you seriously think that's how it happened? The ex-Attorney General of the province, and new head of all things economic for Canada's largest city, piloted his Saab convertible onto the sidewalk of one of Toronto's most prominent downtown roads, going in the wrong direction?

In his defense the guy he was going after was a courier, and everyone hates those guys.

In summary, it was the courier's fault for existing.

 

[Baked]

Originally posted by: dainthomas

Originally posted by: skace

The worst that could happen is you'd die.

From getting punched? Do you have one of those genetic brittle bone diseases?

You're an idiot. Go get punch repeatedly without covering your head by an angry cyclist and see what happens.

 

[LTC8K6]

That's what the story says, imo.

He swerved into oncoming traffic and then went on the sidewalk and hit a cyclist. An argument then ensued between himself and the cyclist which ended with him driving off with the cyclist attached to his car.

The car apparently swerved to the oncoming lane of traffic along Bloor, very close to the sidewalk that the cyclist hung over. ?He started going (driving) onto the sidewalk,? said Manuel Machado, a construction worker standing on the street as it unfolded.

?I heard the tires screech,? said Ryan Brazeau, another worker. ?He (the cyclist) was right literally at the front windshield, almost holding on to the driver.?

The driver was now going west in the eastbound curb lane, leaving the cyclist clinging to the curbside door of the car.

 

[LTC8K6]

The only question I have is why did the driver enter the oncoming lane of traffic and have to go onto the curb in the first place? That is what precipitated the incident with the cyclist as far as I can tell.

 

[JulesMaximus]

Originally posted by: yllus

Originally posted by: Perknose

Originally posted by: yllus
The cyclist (allegedly) continuing to hold on to the car instead of letting go when the speed picked up a little is where I place the most blame for this: He's in a steel box that weighs a couple of tons, you're on a flimsy bike. Your self-preservation alarm isn't going off like crazy when he floors it? Let go!

I don't believe you're thinking this through thoroughly enough: Cyclist is hanging on, driver suddenly floors it. By the time the cyclist can react to this, the car is already at 30-40mph and accelerating fast. The hard, hard pavement is whipping by, and the cyclist is not a prepared and protected stunt man in a Hollywood movie, so his very first survival instinct is to hold the fuck on.

Speed increases, all this in a matter of seconds (even a relatively slow car can get to 60 in under 10 seconds) et voila, the cyclist no longer has a good choice to make.

Yeah, I was wondering whether the first instinct of a bicyclist would be to let go or hang on. I figured it would to bail and take his lumps at a lower speed rather than hold on and hope the driver slows down, but it could go either way.

The vehicle Mr. Bryant was driving a "1995 Saab convertible", which I'm guessing can go fast in a hurry. The entire thing probably took place in a matter of seconds.

Some more information on the victim:

Former Ontario AG under arrest

The Globe and Mail has learned that the victim was 33-year-old bike courier Darcy Allan Sheppard.

...

Raajiv Rajadurai, 23, and a friend were driving east on Bloor when they noticed that a car in the westbound lane had struck a cyclist. The accident didn't look serious, but the biker seemed agitated.

Mr. Rajadurai said he saw the the cyclist slam his backpack onto the car's hood and then grab the driver's side mirror as the vehicle sped away.

"The driver was going so fast that at one point the biker was holding on to his car and there were sparks coming from the bottom of his shoes," he said.

"It seemed like the driver was trying to shake him off because he turned really suddenly, put on the brakes, jetted it one last time and then all your hear is three thumps and then the guy falls on the floor."

Mr. Rajadurai said that when he got out of his car he noticed that the cyclist wasn't moving. He wasn't wearing a helmet.

This is likely to sway public opinion in Mr. Bryant's favour. Bike couriers are stereotyped as a particularly unfriendly bunch of the streets of Toronto.

So, the guy hit the cyclist and then tried to get away but the cyclist was trying to get the motorist to stop. Ended up paying with his life. I still fail to see how this is the cyclists fault.

I think you'd be unfriendly too if someone just hit you with a car. I sure as fuck know that I would be.

 

[dainthomas]

Originally posted by: Baked

Originally posted by: dainthomas

Originally posted by: skace

The worst that could happen is you'd die.

From getting punched? Do you have one of those genetic brittle bone diseases?

You're an idiot. Go get punch repeatedly without covering your head by an angry cyclist and see what happens.

1. I would cover my head and/or punch back, so that would never happen.
2. Even if I didn't, the guy would break every bone in his hands before he came close to killing me.

Have you ever been in a fight, or do you just assume you lose consciousness and die at the first blow?

 

[PingSpike]

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus

Originally posted by: yllus

Originally posted by: Perknose

Originally posted by: yllus
The cyclist (allegedly) continuing to hold on to the car instead of letting go when the speed picked up a little is where I place the most blame for this: He's in a steel box that weighs a couple of tons, you're on a flimsy bike. Your self-preservation alarm isn't going off like crazy when he floors it? Let go!

I don't believe you're thinking this through thoroughly enough: Cyclist is hanging on, driver suddenly floors it. By the time the cyclist can react to this, the car is already at 30-40mph and accelerating fast. The hard, hard pavement is whipping by, and the cyclist is not a prepared and protected stunt man in a Hollywood movie, so his very first survival instinct is to hold the fuck on.

Speed increases, all this in a matter of seconds (even a relatively slow car can get to 60 in under 10 seconds) et voila, the cyclist no longer has a good choice to make.

Yeah, I was wondering whether the first instinct of a bicyclist would be to let go or hang on. I figured it would to bail and take his lumps at a lower speed rather than hold on and hope the driver slows down, but it could go either way.

The vehicle Mr. Bryant was driving a "1995 Saab convertible", which I'm guessing can go fast in a hurry. The entire thing probably took place in a matter of seconds.

Some more information on the victim:

Former Ontario AG under arrest

The Globe and Mail has learned that the victim was 33-year-old bike courier Darcy Allan Sheppard.

...

Raajiv Rajadurai, 23, and a friend were driving east on Bloor when they noticed that a car in the westbound lane had struck a cyclist. The accident didn't look serious, but the biker seemed agitated.

Mr. Rajadurai said he saw the the cyclist slam his backpack onto the car's hood and then grab the driver's side mirror as the vehicle sped away.

"The driver was going so fast that at one point the biker was holding on to his car and there were sparks coming from the bottom of his shoes," he said.

"It seemed like the driver was trying to shake him off because he turned really suddenly, put on the brakes, jetted it one last time and then all your hear is three thumps and then the guy falls on the floor."

Mr. Rajadurai said that when he got out of his car he noticed that the cyclist wasn't moving. He wasn't wearing a helmet.

This is likely to sway public opinion in Mr. Bryant's favour. Bike couriers are stereotyped as a particularly unfriendly bunch of the streets of Toronto.

So, the guy hit the cyclist and then tried to get away but the cyclist was trying to get the motorist to stop. Ended up paying with his life. I still fail to see how this is the cyclists fault.

I think you'd be unfriendly too if someone just hit you with a car. I sure as fuck know that I would be.

So you're saying that if some one rearends you in your car its a good idea to get out and start kicking their car and acting aggressive then? Honestly, it just sounds like the guy was scared and tried to drive off when the cyclist started going apeshit on him, but the cyclist hadn't finished with him so he decided to grab the moving vehicle and not let go of it.

 

[LTC8K6]

From TheStar.com:

Witnesses on Bloor St. last night described a heated confrontation between the driver of a black Saab convertible and a cyclist that began near Bloor and Bay Sts.

Burrows would not confirm reports the cyclist jumped on the car after a collision around 9:45 p.m. on Bloor St., just west of St. Thomas St., and began fighting with the driver.

Witnesses said the westbound vehicle was driving on the wrong side of the road and up onto the curb trying to knock the cyclist off for about 100 metres.

Witnesses said the cyclist hung onto the driver's side of the car, which had its convertible top down, while the driver allegedly yelled at him to get off.

The vehicle veered into the eastbound lanes and mounted the curb, brushing against trees and poles. The victim was apparently run over by the rear wheels of the vehicle, witnesses said.

"Lots of people were watching and they couldn't believe what was happening," said Ryan Brazeau, a worker with a crew laying sewer pipes on Bloor.

One construction worker told CTV News he heard the squeal of tires and saw the car racing the wrong way down the street past their construction site, with the cyclist hanging onto the car.

"The guy hanging onto the car, hit the mailbox, hit the road, (then) . . . the car ran over him with the back tires," the witness said. "The guy bounced and the car sped off . . . the person was there just bleeding."

The witness said he felt sick to his stomach when he saw the cyclist "bleeding from his head, his mouth."

Sheppard was taken to St. Michael's Hospital with serious head injuries and died around midnight.

Burrows said a large portion of the incident was captured on surveillance video and that investigators are working to fill in the gaps.

 

[yllus]

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
So, the guy hit the cyclist and then tried to get away but the cyclist was trying to get the motorist to stop. Ended up paying with his life. I still fail to see how this is the cyclists fault.

I think you'd be unfriendly too if someone just hit you with a car. I sure as fuck know that I would be.

Feeling unfriendly doesn't equal feeling like I'm going to hold onto a car to try to make it stop. How often does that maneuver work?

Common sense, preservation of self and being outweighed by a couple of tons > Moral righteousness

 

[LTC8K6]

http://www.thestar.com/News/GTA/article/689220

Diagram of scene with car path in this article.

 

[TheSlamma]

Hope he goes to a prison with convicts that he screwed over in his attorney position.

 

[SarcasticDwarf]

Originally posted by: LTC8K6

But why was he (presumably) holding on in the first place?

Because the guy drove like a maniac, swerved into oncoming traffic and then onto the sidewalk and hit him?

The car apparently swerved to the oncoming lane of traffic along Bloor, very close to the sidewalk that the cyclist hung over. ?He started going (driving) onto the sidewalk,? said Manuel Machado, a construction worker standing on the street as it unfolded.

?I heard the tires screech,? said Ryan Brazeau, another worker. ?He (the cyclist) was right literally at the front windshield, almost holding on to the driver.?

The driver was now going west in the eastbound curb lane, leaving the cyclist clinging to the curbside door of the car. The cyclist, clinging to the car as it sped away, then struck trees and a grey mailbox like a ?human battering ram,? Mr. Brazeau said.

No, that does not explain why the cyclist was on the car to begin with. A person does not accidentally/magically cling to a vehicle.

 

[LTC8K6]

No, that does not explain why the cyclist was on the car to begin with.

The driver hit him, apparently. That seems pretty clear from all accounts. The driver initially hit the cyclist, which started the incident. The cyclist ends up on the car's hood near the driver. Whether the cyclist is on the hood from the impact, or after the impact out of anger, I can't say.

The top was down, so the cyclist could have grabbed the windshield pillar after he was hit.

The driver and the cyclist are arguing, apparently with the cyclist still on the hood after being hit.

I'm guessing that the driver then decides to leave the scene of the initial accident, since the cyclist is apparently not injured, which of course infuriates the cyclist, who won't get off the hood of the car to allow the driver to leave.

The driver decides to remove the cyclist by driving off. He swerves, goes into the wrong lane, onto the curb of the wrong lane, against mailboxes, etc., trying to dislodge the cyclist, who is now clinging to the side of the car from the swerving.

The cyclist eventually falls off and is run over by the Saab's rear wheels.

All subject to clearer info, of course.

 

[JulesMaximus]

Originally posted by: PingSpike
So you're saying that if some one rearends you in your car its a good idea to get out and start kicking their car and acting aggressive then? Honestly, it just sounds like the guy was scared and tried to drive off when the cyclist started going apeshit on him, but the cyclist hadn't finished with him so he decided to grab the moving vehicle and not let go of it.

:roll: Way to try to put words in my mouth.

No, I'm not saying that. I'm saying that if you get into an accident you get out of your car and you exchange information with the person you hit. You don't try to drive off. Sounds to me like both of them escalated this situation but that doesn't warrant killing someone and it sure as fuck doesn't warrant letting the motorist off the hook for killing someone.

 

[sdifox]

ex AG has been charged with criminal negligence causing death and dangerous operation of a motor vehicle causing death.


The election to fill the seat he vacated will happen on Sept 17. Coupled with all the spending scandals, me think the Liberals will lose the seat.

 

[SarcasticDwarf]

Originally posted by: LTC8K6

No, that does not explain why the cyclist was on the car to begin with.

The driver hit him, apparently. That seems pretty clear from all accounts. The driver initially hit the cyclist, which started the incident. The cyclist ends up on the car's hood near the driver. Whether the cyclist is on the hood from the impact, or after the impact out of anger, I can't say.

The top was down, so the cyclist could have grabbed the windshield pillar after he was hit.

The driver and the cyclist are arguing, apparently with the cyclist still on the hood after being hit.

I'm guessing that the driver then decides to leave the scene of the initial accident, since the cyclist is apparently not injured, which of course infuriates the cyclist, who won't get off the hood of the car to allow the driver to leave.

The driver decides to remove the cyclist by driving off. He swerves, goes into the wrong lane, onto the curb of the wrong lane, against mailboxes, etc., trying to dislodge the cyclist, who is now clinging to the side of the car from the swerving.

The cyclist eventually falls off and is run over by the Saab's rear wheels.

All subject to clearer info, of course.

Yup, this is what I am getting at. The probably scenarios would seem to be:

* The biker's clothing was caught on the vehicle from the initial accident, not allowing him to get off.
* The biker was not caught on the vehicle, but landed there, and the driver immediately accelerated.
* The biker was not caught on the vehicle, but landed there, refused to get off/acted confrontational, and the driver accelerated.
* The biker was not caught on the vehicle, did not land there, but grabbed onto the vehicle in anger.

In my mind it would be hard to convict the driver if it was the third or fourth scenario.

 

[mb]

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus

Originally posted by: PingSpike
So you're saying that if some one rearends you in your car its a good idea to get out and start kicking their car and acting aggressive then? Honestly, it just sounds like the guy was scared and tried to drive off when the cyclist started going apeshit on him, but the cyclist hadn't finished with him so he decided to grab the moving vehicle and not let go of it.

:roll: Way to try to put words in my mouth.

No, I'm not saying that. I'm saying that if you get into an accident you get out of your car and you exchange information with the person you hit. You don't try to drive off. Sounds to me like both of them escalated this situation but that doesn't warrant killing someone and it sure as fuck doesn't warrant letting the motorist off the hook for killing someone.

And just what if the cyclist in question threatened to severely beat / kill the driver of the car, and the driver happened to be in a convertible with the top down making him an even easier target? Would you still expect him to just sit there and try to calmly "exchange information"?

 

[manowar821]

Holy shit there are a ton of morons in here.

 

[mb]

Originally posted by: manowar821
Holy shit there are a ton of morons in here.

Oh, were you there? :roll:

 

[dainthomas]

Originally posted by: manowar821
Holy shit there are a ton of morons in here.

This is standard for ATOT. The only group loathed more than fatties are cyclists. Good thing there aren't any fat cyclists. That would be like Pol Pot, Stalin, and Hitler all rolled into one to these clowns.

 

[JulesMaximus]

Originally posted by: mb

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus

Originally posted by: PingSpike
So you're saying that if some one rearends you in your car its a good idea to get out and start kicking their car and acting aggressive then? Honestly, it just sounds like the guy was scared and tried to drive off when the cyclist started going apeshit on him, but the cyclist hadn't finished with him so he decided to grab the moving vehicle and not let go of it.

:roll: Way to try to put words in my mouth.

No, I'm not saying that. I'm saying that if you get into an accident you get out of your car and you exchange information with the person you hit. You don't try to drive off. Sounds to me like both of them escalated this situation but that doesn't warrant killing someone and it sure as fuck doesn't warrant letting the motorist off the hook for killing someone.

And just what if the cyclist in question threatened to severely beat / kill the driver of the car, and the driver happened to be in a convertible with the top down making him an even easier target? Would you still expect him to just sit there and try to calmly "exchange information"?

Shit doesn't escalate to that level that quickly if you are a reasonable person. It just doesn't. Not with a guy in spandex just trying to do his job and not in a situation where some motorist was just being fucking clueless. This guy is no innocent lamb who was about to be slaughtered by a skinny guy in tights. There was probably a whole lot of escalation by both of them but none of that warrants what the jackass in the cage did.

Go try and sell that shit somewhere else, because I'm not fucking buying it. :|

 

[manowar821]

woah, what the hell? *nevermind-edit.*

 

[KMFJD]

Originally posted by: Perknose

Originally posted by: KMFJD

Originally posted by: Perknose

Originally posted by: yllus
The cyclist (allegedly) continuing to hold on to the car instead of letting go when the speed picked up a little is where I place the most blame for this: He's in a steel box that weighs a couple of tons, you're on a flimsy bike. Your self-preservation alarm isn't going off like crazy when he floors it? Let go!

I don't believe you're thinking this through thoroughly enough: Cyclist is hanging on, driver suddenly floors it. By the time the cyclist can react to this, the car is already at 30-40mph and accelerating fast. The hard, hard pavement is whipping by, and the cyclist is not a prepared and protected stunt man in a Hollywood movie, so his very first survival instinct is to hold the fuck on.

Speed increases, all this in a matter of seconds (even a relatively slow car can get to 60 in under 10 seconds) et voila, the cyclist no longer has a good choice to make.

Natural Instinct is to hang on? I'd say it's more to let go...

Not if you don't get a full chance to react because you're yelling at the driver until, in 3 seconds or so, you're already @ 30-40 mph.

THIS is my main complaint with many of the posts from the "hot house flower virgins" of ATOT -- they pass judgment on real life situations that can unfold hella quickly from the calm and safety of their latte stained laptops.

Ok, your right, my natural instinct would be to hold on and get into a more dangerous situation :roll:

 

[skace]

Originally posted by: dainthomas
From getting punched? Do you have one of those genetic brittle bone diseases?

If the guy's armed that's one thing, but the cyclist in the OP certainly wasn't.

My point was that you can't give a worst case scenario that isn't the worst case. The worst case is not a single punch, it's death. You have no idea what he has on him, you have no idea how well trained he is. Whether he intends to rip your ear off or go for an eye, or beat you to death, or choke you. You sit there and fucking assume you're going to block his punches and shoryuken his ass. Well that's great but it isn't reality. The reality is that if someone is angry and at the window of your car looking down on you, all other things being equal they have the better position.