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Right-wing irrational rage

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Craig loves to swing from the nuts of the 1%, provided they belong to the right family.

Very glib, but I'd rather point out that Craig's use of Chappaquiddick as an example of right wing rage would be like a 2012 conservative using Watergate to illustrate "left wing rage." It's the kind of thing that makes ones co-ideologues mutter, "psst. ix-nay. It was a dead issue until you brought it up again."

It's kind of funny, because TK had after decades almost kinda sorta clawed his way out of that one, the passage of time being his friend. Then Craig has to go and bring it up again. Truth be told, I myself had gotten hazy on the details, but Craig prompted me to go and read the wiki on it, and once gain I was reminded of what an utter piece of shit he had been. Doh!

- wolf
 
Very glib, but I'd rather point out that Craig's use of Chappaquiddick as an example of right wing rage would be like a 2012 conservative using Watergate to illustrate "left wing rage." It's the kind of thing that makes ones co-ideologues mutter, "psst. ix-nay. It was a dead issue until you brought it up again."

It's kind of funny, because TK had after decades almost kinda sorta clawed his way out of that one, the passage of time being his friend. Then Craig has to go and bring it up again. Truth be told, I myself had gotten hazy on the details, but Craig prompted me to go and read the wiki on it, and once gain I was reminded of what an utter piece of shit he had been. Doh!

- wolf

The problem with that approach is that Watergate should still be held up as an example of what not to do, as should drowning people in cars. There should be no rage involved, just objective critical review. Everyone, Republican or Democrat alike should be able to say that spying on your political opponents is bad. We should also be able to say that letting people drown in your car isn't an acceptable thing from a person in a position of power.

What Craig is doing isn't objective at all. Rather than admit that Ted Kennedy should probably have served time in prison rather than congress, he is actively downplaying the event and trying to claim that Republican bad actions are worse than Democrat ones as the basis for his argument that Republicans get mad about things they shouldn't.

Craig and people like him - from both parties - are the problem.
 
The problem with that approach is that Watergate should still be held up as an example of what not to do, as should drowning people in cars. There should be no rage involved, just objective critical review. Everyone, Republican or Democrat alike should be able to say that spying on your political opponents is bad. We should also be able to say that letting people drown in your car isn't an acceptable thing from a person in a position of power.

What Craig is doing isn't objective at all. Rather than admit that Ted Kennedy should probably have served time in prison rather than congress, he is actively downplaying the event and trying to claim that Republican bad actions are worse than Democrat ones as the basis for his argument that Republicans get mad about things they shouldn't.

Craig and people like him - from both parties - are the problem.

I was remarking from a more cynical perspective, that Craig's use of this was a tactical blunder. His intent is to attack conservatives, and it ends up backfiring.

If I'm going to look at it on substance, I'll say what I said initially: there are in fact examples of irrational right wing rage that are both current and good, and this wasn't one of them. The issue of it not being current is also important here because Craig's point had to do with the right's rage. Using stuff like Jane Fonda and Chappaquiddick to illustrate the point is problematic if for no other reason because conservatives hardly even talk about those things any more, and haven't in ages. It reminds me as well of conservatives trying to claim that dems have a poor record on civil rights because southern democrats voted against civil rights legislation in 1965. It matters whether things are current or not because we're talking about different political parties, different constituencies, and different philosophies over the passage of 50 years.

Obviously I agree that neither Watergate nor Chappaquiddick are examples of how we want our elected officials to behave and I don't think either should be entirely forgotten.

- wolf
 
...What Craig is doing isn't objective at all. Rather than admit that Ted Kennedy should probably have served time in prison rather than congress, he is actively downplaying the event and trying to claim that Republican bad actions are worse than Democrat ones as the basis for his argument that Republicans get mad about things they shouldn't...
Perhaps Craig hoped wading through his Wall-of-Text would exhaust his audience's critical facilities. Edward Kennedy may have done some admirable things in his career, but he was definitely the least of the four Kennedy brothers and his actions at Chappaquiddick were criminally negligent at the very least.
 
I was remarking from a more cynical perspective, that Craig's use of this was a tactical blunder. His intent is to attack conservatives, and it ends up backfiring.

If I'm going to look at it on substance, I'll say what I said initially: there are in fact examples of irrational right wing rage that are both current and good, and this wasn't one of them. The issue of it not being current is also important here because Craig's point had to do with the right's rage. Using stuff like Jane Fonda and Chappaquiddick to illustrate the point is problematic if for no other reason because conservatives hardly even talk about those things any more, and haven't in ages. It reminds me as well of conservatives trying to claim that dems have a poor record on civil rights because southern democrats voted against civil rights legislation in 1965. It matters whether things are current or not because we're talking about different political parties, different constituencies, and different philosophies over the passage of 50 years.

Obviously I agree that neither Watergate nor Chappaquiddick are examples of how we want our elected officials to behave and I don't think either should be entirely forgotten.

- wolf

It's unfortunate that we have to always consider tactics rather than simply being able to openly and honestly debate ideas based on their merit. Politics suck. 🙁
 
You don't have irrational rage here, just irrationality.

Let's see if we can't help point out some of your errors.



These are not at all comparable. Tea Party events - including Fox-paid organizing and marketing, Koch brother buses for attendees - were basic short-term meetings.

Go, listen to the propaganda, leave. Even with that they could sometimes turn a bit ugly - remember the 'walk of hate' Rep. John Lewis experienced - but just basic meetings.

Occupy was quite different - more civil disobedience, long-term occupation of locations, more open to more diverse people.

You exaggerate the crime issues - well you parrot the exaggeration of them by the propagandists opposing the occupy movement for partisan reasons.

In fact, the vast majority of occupy participants were peaceful.

But when a murder took place at an Oakland BART where occupy happened to also be, having nothing to do with occupy - that became 'an occupy murder' to the liars.

Your comments are nothing but inaccurate misrperesentations to demonize a larger movement. See the 'bad apples' fallacy.



Actually, progressives generally have been very critical of Obama on these issues, calling him 'worse than Bush' on some.

The hypocrisy is on your side - people fighting for Bush and 'little lambs' for the most part on Bush wrongs from wireless wiretapping to the use of torture and much more.

But they are screeching hyenas about Obama, not just 'rationally opposing his policies' but guilty of irrational rage. I just watched the press conference by the birthers...



These are not progressive issues. There are fringe groups - right, left, anarchist, whatever - who participate more or less in conspiracy theories. More progressives are open to an issue that Bush and others ignored the need for strengthening the levees; that Bush was slow to respond to the disaster; that the poor of New Orlenas were treated poorly in s disaster from which large numbers have never returned to their homes, while real estate speculators took advantage to get the land cheap for their own use.

That's a far cry from 'Bush blew up the levees' or 'Bush blew up the towers'.

It's your side that ignores the facts - such as that the day of 9/11 Bush was ordering his security team to 'find a way to tie this to Saddam'.



As I recall there was one foreign filmmaker who made one movie that was not 'about assassinating the president' but an account of what might happen if he were, which was portrayed in the movie. It didn't encourage it, it didn't prasie it, and it was one movie that did not represent the Democrats - it wasn't really a political event at all for them. Just fro Republicans to politicize and misrepresent as you do here.



Hardly.



Turned conservative? When the Iraq war broke out, the only 'liberal show' MSNBC had was Phil Donahue, their top rated show, and they demanded that Donahue make his show more pro-war - they insisted that for every guest he had against the war he have three for the war, they put a network operative on his set to enforce making it more right-wing, and then they canceled the show because they did not want to have any content that wasn't pro-war. And that was the most 'anti-war' part of the mainstream media.

So, yes, MSNBC was pretty 'conservative', as far as being Bush cheerleaders and war cheerleaders. Dan Rather noted it was widespread, including himself.

Later, MSNBC found some market with 'liberal shows' - and still had fights with them. They suspended and finally canceled Keith Olbermanm, the leading 'liberal show'. The network president ordered host Cenk Uyger to tone down his show to stop offending 'the powers in Washington' and got rid of him. So ya, their liberal credentials are hardly unblemished.

But where are all these progressives claiming MSNBC has 'turned conservative' you claim?

No evidence.

Your entire post is filled with falsehoods, not one accurate sentence.

LOL, all that to admit you cannot be rational in a discussion. You asked for examples I gave them to you and now you want to quibble. You admit what I said was factually correct about the film then turn around and say nothing I said was correct. BTW - Spike Lee claims Bush had the levees blown up. For all the pomp I fail to see the circumstance.
 
LOL, all that to admit you cannot be rational in a discussion.

You're being an idiot.

You asked for examples I gave them to you and now you want to quibble. You admit what I said was factually correct about the film then turn around and say nothing I said was correct. BTW - Spike Lee claims Bush had the levees blown up. For all the pomp I fail to see the circumstance.

I said that every point you made was not accurate in some way.

In showing that, I pointed out the bits of a point you made that were accurate, and then the parts that were not. You can't argue the facts, so you throw out a qord 'quibbling'.

You add another error here. Spike Lee doesn't 'claim Bush had the levees blown up'. Now, even if he did, very few progressives hold that view, almost none. What he actually said about the conspiracy theory is that it's 'not far-fetched' that the government prioritized flooding black areas over other areas, based on other things the government does wrong; he specifically said that 'doesn't mean they blew them up'.

I disagree with Lee on his even suggesting it's 'not far-fetched' the government did anything causing the flooding of the black neighborhoods.

However, Lee made an important four-part documentary about Katrina, and nowhere in it did he claim the government did anything of the sort.

So your claim is both false and weak, for the bit of truth in it about a quote showing Lee has a different position than almost every progressive.
 
Craig quotes himself in his sig. I think that says everything you need to know about him.

south_park_smug.jpg



I literally lost IQ reading the first page of this thread.
 
Craig234

You don't have to be a warmonger to see what Fonda did. The point is that she traveled to a country deemed to be the enemy during a time of conflict. She used her international recognition to encourage the "enemy" to keep fighting and to hold out during peace negotiations. Arguing the merits or lack of them for the conflict is irrelevant. She supplied added incentive and value to them to keep shooting at our guys. I would have no problem if she had simply protested at home as many others did. Her travel was designed specifically to encourage and sustain an enemy government actively killing our troops.

Drunk drivers killing people deserve punishment. A litany of excuses is not mitigating. Let me know how the excuse thing works for you if it ever happens to someone you care about, or if you find yourself in a similar situation defending yourself.
 
Craig234

You don't have to be a warmonger to see what Fonda did. The point is that she traveled to a country deemed to be the enemy during a time of conflict. She used her international recognition to encourage the "enemy" to keep fighting and to hold out during peace negotiations. Arguing the merits or lack of them for the conflict is irrelevant. She supplied added incentive and value to them to keep shooting at our guys. I would have no problem if she had simply protested at home as many others did. Her travel was designed specifically to encourage and sustain an enemy government actively killing our troops.

Drunk drivers killing people deserve punishment. A litany of excuses is not mitigating. Let me know how the excuse thing works for you if it ever happens to someone you care about, or if you find yourself in a similar situation defending yourself.

Again, I claim you are wrong, but you are not the sort of 'rage' person I'm talking about.

Her visit to North Vietnam was not to "enourage the "enemy" to keep fighting and to hold out during peace negotiations." It was to oppose the bombing of dikes, threatening civilian drowning and/or starvation. She was not trying to cause 'added incentive and value to keep shooting at our guys', she was caring about the US troops.

If she HAD simply said 'she supports North Vietnam to win the war', that would be her right as an American, but it's not what happened.

It's interesting - later documents fro Whit House tapes were released showing that President Nixon was effectively a war criminal. The advisor pushing the bombing of dikes estimated it would threaten the starvation of a million or more people, and that the US could then use food to bribe the North Vietnamese to give in. In another conversation, Nixon asked Kissinger how many drownings bombing the dikes would cause; Kissinger said 200,000. Nixon said no, he'd rather use nuclear weapons, and berated Kissinger for being too soft and showing concern about these massive civilian casualties and instructed him to not be concerned.

These are comparable to other war crimes, including some of the Holocaust morality. And yet, the criticism of Nixon is almost nothing compared to criticism of the people who stood up against those policies and wanted to prevent the killing and end the war. That is outrageous and perverse morally.

Daniel Ellsberg, seeing the government had lied to the American people about Vietnam, risked life in prison to tell the American people the truth - and he's the 'traitor'.

Read Fonda's own account of the issue at the following link, then comment on her.

http://janefonda.com/the-truth-about-my-trip-to-hanoi/

On the one hand, it might lean towards justifying her trip - but it rings true about the main issues and is clearly true generally about the verifiable statements.

This isn't to defend or condemn Fonda more generally; but rather to mention the example of how there is a lot of irrational rage about her having nothing to do with the facts.

This is why there were quickly stories that were lies created and told ever since about things like her spitting on the POW's when she visited.

I think one of the reasons is that some people find it hard to take responsibility for THEIR supporting things like having the blood of two million Vietnamese on their hands.
 
Craig234

Nowhere in your link does she discuss what she had to say to the N.V government. Had she prodded them to reach a peace settlement or call for a cease fire while an agreement was reached she would have said it. Instead, she said how she was there to collect evidence to shame our government and make us the ones to stop the conflict. I have no doubt she told them how public opinion was turning against the war (which she intended to foster) and therefore they would prevail soon if they hung in there. Her concern for the troops fell short of asking that they not be shot at anymore.

Had she remained at home and protested, her protests would have been deemed as against the U.S. government (and I fully support her right to do so). Traveling there left her open to accusations of supporting the N.V. government. Her friendly photo-ops gave credence to the idea.
 
Craig234

Nowhere in your link does she discuss what she had to say to the N.V government. Had she prodded them to reach a peace settlement or call for a cease fire while an agreement was reached she would have said it. Instead, she said how she was there to collect evidence to shame our government and make us the ones to stop the conflict. I have no doubt she told them how public opinion was turning against the war (which she intended to foster) and therefore they would prevail soon if they hung in there. Her concern for the troops fell short of asking that they not be shot at anymore.

Had she remained at home and protested, her protests would have been deemed as against the U.S. government (and I fully support her right to do so). Traveling there left her open to accusations of supporting the N.V. government. Her friendly photo-ops gave credence to the idea.

What is wrong with you? You think the war would end because Jane Fonda asked the North Vietnamese to stop shooting at their enemy?

She didn't go there to 'talk to the North Vietnamese government'. She said it was a humanitarian trip about the bombing of dikes.

By the way, what do you think the right position is if you think your government has started an unjust war?

You just ignored the issues raised in my post, such as the lack of condemnation for Nixon pushing massive war crimes in contrast to those wanting to protect the people.
 
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It's hard not to notice the phenomenon of the rage common in right-wing politics.

Indeed Fox News has been described as the 'make old white men angry channel'.

The content of their message/propaganda, is filled with 'infuriating' things - liberals hate America, liberals are at war with religion, liberals hate freedom and capitalism, on and on.

Sometimes, 'symbols' happen that are focal points for them to rage against.

Jane Fonda comes to mind. Nevermind that her intent was moral, about feeling the killing and war machine driving Vietnam were wrong, about reminding people both sides were human beings instead of the dehumanized 'enemy'. Muhammed Ali went to prison saying 'the North Vietnamese had never hurt him' rather than go kill them, and this was in the same vein. So nevermind the morality of war issues. Nevermind that having her sit on an anti-aircraft gun was some flack's PR stunt asking her to sit there which she did without much though, nevermind that she later regretted it and apologized for that particular action while not for the trip to North Vietnam otherwise.

The right did and does just have rage and hate for her as some sort of superhuman demon. Nevermind the question about the blood of 2 million people on their hands.

This isn't rational rage - the sort that might be directed at a Hitler or a Stalin who are behind such massive suffering and killing for those actions.

It's just rage they themselves don't understand - 'don't say her name'.

You see the same thing with Michael Moore, with Julian Assange and Wikileaks - figures they could discuss 'the issues' with, but instead have an irrational rage.

I mention this leading up to an example of Ted Kennedy and Chappaquiddick.

What if a loved one of yours drove drunk and hurt no one? Is there any room for saying that was horribly wrong, but you don't now curse their name daily afterwards, wanting nothing to do with them? Is there any room for balancing and saying 'people make mistakes'? What if your loved one crashed and killed someone? Could you be filled with sorrow and anger and yet not disown them? Decades later?

At the least, Ted Kennedy had a driving accident, driving in the dark, with no lights but his car's, when a sharp turn led him to miss the turn and crash into a small river, upside down, and in shock he struggled to escape and wasn't functioning well, barely managing to get back to the people he knew. I remember a story of a man who crashed on a bridge near me, and after the accident was walking around - then walked off the bridge, because the shock of the accident left him that confused.

At the most to a reasonable person, Ted Kennedy might have been drunk as a cause of the accident; he might have had poor judgement assuming the young woman had drowned, and left the scene in a panic - a common reaction which is why there are so many 'hit and run' crimes, and he might have not saved her life when he could have had he got help as fast as he could have rather than returning to his companions where they spent hours before contacting authorities.

There is a level of dislike for his actions that is rational - assuming it was more than 'just an accident and he was in shock' - it was a tragedy and killed a young woman.

But the level of rage is not rational. It's as if Kennedy had killed a million children and eaten them. These people would normally have only a certain level of concern for the young woman, but it's far, far more not for her but for hating Kennedy. Do they show the same level of concern for young women in other situation? Say, Rachel Corrie, the young woman who was protesting the Israeli policy of bulldozing the homes of families of terrorists and tragically killed in similarly ambiguous degrees of fault - and even worse possibilities?

(At best, the bulldozer seemed less than concerned with the people warning it off but it was an accident, at worst it intentionally ran her over when she sat in front of it.)

How does Chappaquiddick compare to the Bushes? George W. Bush was convicted of drunk driving. How is that less bad than Kennedy's act? What if Kennedy had driven drunk and not killed anyone, and George W. Bush had killed someone? In terms of how bad their actions were, assuming Kennedy was drunk, they're the same as far as the accident. It's just a matter of luck that one drunk driver has an accident and another doesn't. By the time they're driving drunk, they're already committed the crime of people people at risk.

Rationally, their actions - assuming Kennedy was drunk - are similar. Laura Bush DID kill someone breaking traffice laws. You don't see anything close to the levels of rage.

For that matter, Bush's attorney Alberto Gonzales helped him cover up his conviction in the election - and for that sort of 'ask no moral questions' help, was later rewarded by being appointed Attorney General - after the previous AG had refused to sign off on secret approval for things like illegal warantless wiretapping when Gonzalez went to Ashcroft's hospital bed with the documents, because Bush knew Gonzales would not put the constitution and the law ahead of Bush's desires. But you don't see the rage for that.

A rational person could even consider some sympathetic issues that do not excuse but help understand if Kennedy were making bad choices - he'd just had his third and last brother killed a year before, the evening was spent with a couple people close to Robert Kennedy, the young woman had been his aide. Ted had almost been killed - had his back broken - not long before in a fatal small plane crash, just as he'd lost a sister in a plane crash. These might make people say 'he was wrong but I sympathize with some things.'

You don't see that. Just this enormous irrational rage like Ted Kennedy was the only drunk driver in history.

These same people would do far more to balance the issues, to forgive, with someone on 'their side', but Chappaquiddick was treated like heading the Nazis.

Kennedy served the country very well for decades. He was often described by both sides in the Senate as one of the best Senators who was key to passing a lot of the best bills.

This isn't about hating Kennedy even for passing legislation to improve education or feed the hungry or whatever cause - it was irrational rage.

I think it'd be good for people to recognize the irrational nature of this, and to try to somehow better understand why it happens and to be more rational about the issues.

We saw something similar in the people who were irrational about Bill Clinton - he had murdered ince Foster and many other people, running a criminal network that dealt drugs and he was determined to sell out the country to the Chinese at least. He and Hillary were the enemies of the country out to destroy it. There was a $50 million 'get Clinton' 'investigative fund' from one billionare alone, and an army of operatives out to find any way to destroy them. That's before Obama's birth certificate/Muslim/terrorist etc.

It's remarkable how this irrational rage can last for decades. I don't think it's good for political views.

Ironically, the same people can spot rage and dislike it - whether or not it's deserved - in the opposition.

No matter how rational opponents of Bush might be in criticisms of his policies, these same people loved the phrase 'Bush Derangement Syndrome' to dismiss the concerns as this 'irrational rage'. 'But Bush sold access to government policies and required lobyists to stop donating to Democrats...' "Bush Derangement Syndrome! BDS! BDS! BDS Alert!!!!"

That's not to say there wasn't such a think as 'BDS' - there were some who had 'irrational rage' against Bush and others also. The 'he starts wars because he enjoys killing' lines.

(Enjoyed the power it brought him without concern for the victims is, sadly, a reasonable description - but enjoying the killing, no.)

The effect of this is not only sad for the people, it's dangerous for the world - when issues of 'the morality of a war' can't be heard over the cries of 'hate Jane Fonda!'

I have seen countless people who say 'Anyone but Obama!', just this week I heard a Republican say he'd vote for ANY Democrat for President over Obama.

This is just irrational rage preventing any reasonable political discussion. How can issues be talked about over that rage?

Sadly, few of these people realize they have that rage - hating Obama is like hating child molesters to them, it's just how they 'feel' now.

As sad as the situation is - and I'm not going to say it's new to politics - it's also sad that money seems able to determine who the rage is aimed at, to shape public opinion.

This is how the rage can be turned on an organization with as an American cause as 'increasing voter participation' lke Acorn - attacked like it was 'Al Queda'.

In an environment like this, niceties about things like 'constitutional rights' and 'rights for those you disagree with' are easily trampled beneath 'hate the enemy!'

Common sense would say that Ted Kennedy did not want the young woman he was remembering his brother with to be killed. That whatever happened, however much fault he had for bad judgement not realizing she might be saved, that he should quickly call the authorities, that the bottom line was at most alcohol-fueled poor judgement, deserving of strong criticism and anger but nothing like the rage that took place.

When the right is ready to say nothing else about Bush is important than his drunk driving incident, which could have killed someone, and show the same rage - we'll talk.

That won't happen because the rage is excessive for the terrible act. And it's harmful to our political discussion.

At the same time, much that deserves MORE fury doesn't get much more than a yawn, the corruption, the lies, the use of money to undermine democracy, and so on.

So when Rick Santorum just this week misrepresented what President Kennedy said and argued for removing the 'separation of religion and politics', how many of his supporters - some of whom did mildly 'disagree' - really criticized him for the misrepresentation? I don't remember any.

This rage can occur against groups, countries, religions, etc., not just certain people.

When Hermain Cain commited the outrageous act of religious bigotry to pander to one religious group by saying he would not appoint any Muslims, how many Republican leaders condemned him? How many even of his opponents for the nomination? I don't remember any doing so. They might not have gone as far as he did saying they wouldn't appoint any either, but they were his accomplices, treating his bigotry as legitimate and acceptable.

But when there is irrational rage against Muslims, how is that fixed in the political debate?

This rage this thread is about affects politics, rights, killing. It's rage against gays that supports opposing their equal rights, calling discrimination 'protecting marriage'.

And this rage is a tool used to manipulate people by 'handlers'. Need people to support removing a regulation? Make them feel rage for the backers of the regulation. It rarely gets that specific - just demonize 'the liberals' and get 'your people' in power - but sometimes it does, like with 'Obamacare'.

There are rational issues with Obamacare to favor or oppose - but the rage against is a sort of 'rage against losing America to Stalinism'.

A phrase I find useful about this is 'rage addiction' - when people get so conditioned to be outraged by a daily diet of these manipulations, that that's what politics becomes for them, an ongoing hatred of what they're supposed to hate, much like some people can become 'addicted to war' - it provides adrenaline and entertainment and gives them a sense they're 'for something', a team - not unlike sports team fanatics, but much more intense.

It's hard to get through to people who have irrational rage on something. It's hard to remember a case of their hearing something that got them to be more rational.

A lot of this is hard-wired - every election is painted by the manipulators as 'a historic election which will save or destroy our country'.

Almost everyone will claim they don't 'fall for that', but a lot more have areas of this 'irrational rage'.

Save234

The fact that you are going to great lengths to defend Jane Fonda and Ted Kennedy shows what kind of a political hack you are. Anyone with the "D" label can do no wrong. In the grand scheme of things you just don’t frekin get it.
 
So you now realize that the Occupiers are a fringe group and not "the 99%"?

Well, that's a start.

The issue at heart of the OWS movement is something that affects and should be cared about by the 99%. Due to a lack of central organization the OWS groups differ vastly across the US. In addition there's no single figure to focus on. Any group that protests any but the most egregious offenses is by it's nature the fringe of something. It takes an excess amount of passion about something to focus yourself on protesting. Even people that care deeply about an issue will not generally put the focus into protesting. Especially with this nation's history of violently attacking even the most peaceful of liberal protests (see Kent State). Outside of your occasional weekend drop by or supporter in words only, those who involve themselves longterm in the OWS movement are indeed fringe, even if the original issue is not.

The Tea Party seems to be fringe and mainstream as a whole. It's weird. The problem there lies that the whole of the GOP has moved very far right in the last 2 decades. The Tea Party is an even farther right split off of that. However for a group that's already gone so far right that the whole party itself is almost fringe, it's not a big leap for the Tea Party to be fringe. You can't really have someone that's Tea Party that's not fringe and thus in between the GOP and Tea Party. There's just not a lot of room between insanely far right and super duper crazy far right.
 
You've got a head start if you can see the problem. Most people can see it only in others, not themselves.

Actually I think most people can only see it in those who think differently than themselves. I think it's easier to react to things that make you angry than it is to react to things that just slightly annoy you. Of course in forums you rarely get true moderates or even moderate liberals or conservatives.

monovillage is a weird one I must admit. Sometimes to me he seems like a far right nut, sometimes he seems quite reasonable. Probably not too far off to how I sound to someone who's conservative.
 
What is wrong with you? You think the war would end because Jane Fonda asked the North Vietnamese to stop shooting at their enemy?

She didn't go there to 'talk to the North Vietnamese government'. She said it was a humanitarian trip about the bombing of dikes.

By the way, what do you think the right position is if you think your government has started an unjust war?

You just ignored the issues raised in my post, such as the lack of condemnation for Nixon pushing massive war crimes in contrast to those wanting to protect the people.


Should Nixon have been tried as a war criminal for starting the war in Vietnam?
 
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